How and when to use Procs?

[Mashugana]

How do you know when it is best to 'proc out' a power vs. going with and IO set or even just Damage and Acc IO's? I am especially interested in leveling more than end game. Where do procs make sense?

 

Thank you.

[KaizenSoze]

41 minutes ago, Mashugana said:

How do you know when it is best to 'proc out' a power vs. going with and IO set or even just Damage and Acc IO's? I am especially interested in leveling more than end game. Where do procs make sense?

 

Thank you.

Complicated topic, which more analytical folks will chime in soon.

 

MIDS is really great for giving you a good idea which powers proc well. Non-purple procs will do 71 damage, if you slot into a power and only see 20 damage, then that generally mean it's firing a lot less than half the time. I might be committing a crime against math, so I'll avoid specific percentages. The lower the damage once slotted then the lower the proc rate. I generally do not put procs into powers that show 30 or less damage.

 

One thing to consider when leveling, slotting proc indirectly cause your powers to use more endurance and recharge. Since, you want longer power recharge to increase proc rates you can gimp yourself by accident. Unless you have a lot of global recharge. Also, every proc takes up a spot that could slot endurance reduction.

 

For example, VEAT Mu pool Static Discharge. It takes a ton of procs, but that means it costs the full 18.98 endurance each attack.

 

I will put procs while leveling for low damage builds. Like Trick Arrow: Ice Arrow, it does no damage, but procs very nicely on my controller.

[MTeague]

My personal rules of thumb (your milage may vary, see dealer for details, etc)

• If the character can already do good damage with the power straight out of the box, I avoid procs.
  • scrapper crit, brute fury, corruptor scourge, blaster's damage boost using blasts, etc does not affect proc damage. 
  • by contrast, controllers, defenders, mastermind's are relatively "meh" damage with their attacks, and therefore more likely to benefit from proc dmg.
• recharge of the power.
  • look at the Proc-Per-Minute of the proc. Say it procs 3.5 times per minute. That means, on average, once every 17 seconds. 
  • if the power is extremely fast cycling, like say Neutrino bolt (4 seconds base I think?), your chance to proc is very low. 
  • if the power's recharge rate is pretty close (say, 16 seconds recharge), then you have an excellent chance for those procs to fire every time you use it. 
  • if the power's recharge is very high (say, 90 seconds or 2 minutes), it becomes alllllllmost a guarantee the procs will fire every time you use it.
  • keep in mind, if you slot recharge directly into the power, that reduces the power's recharge and alters your proc chance
  • but GLOBAL recharge (set bonuses, luck of gambler pieces, hasten) make the power come back faster without lowering your proc chance. This is why you'll see some people going absolutely nuts stacking recharge bonuses. mechanically, it's very very useful)

Now, I'm still a set-bonus field.  When I slot lots of procs into a power, I hear voices of set bonuses that might have been cry out in terror, and suddenly silence.  So I tend to limit myself to three or less proc-heavy powers per character. That may or may not be an issue for you. Depends what your other slotting goals are and what other powers you have.

• Holds in particular are excellent candidates for slotting because of the sheer number of options.
  • However, on Holds, I do like to maintain at least a couple slots for acc/hold. 
  • Having procs do damage is nice, but I also rely on the Hold power to, well, HOLD the enemy. I'm quaint like that. Especailly on my controllers.
  • But you can probably squeeze in 3-5 procs on a hold, depending on your tolerance / desire to maintain hold duration. 
• Defense Debuffs that deal damage are another strong contender for proccing.
• PBAE melee powers also tend to have decent recharge times and good number of damage procs available.

 

While levelling, I wouldn't try to build up more than 2 proc heavy workhorses at once. Slots are at a premium low level. 

Also, consider running Tactics, or using a Kismet +Acc.  the more procs you use, the less slotted accuracy you probably have, and potentially fewer set bonuses for +acc to all powers. Having a five proc'd hold, or a six proc'd Infrigidate is great for damage..... but does nothing if you whiff because your accuracy sucks.

[Without_Pause]

I tend to only use maybe one proc in a power. I prefer the bonuses. In some cases, like a damage aura for a Brute I would proc more as the aura's damage is already being boosted by Fury. Proc slotting for when depends on the proc. Some it is the last slot. Others it will be the first, see the +End proc used in Radiation Therapy.

[Mashugana]

9 minutes ago, MTeague said:

My personal rules of thumb (your milage may vary, see dealer for details, etc)

• If the character can already do good damage with the power straight out of the box, I avoid procs.
  • scrapper crit, brute fury, corruptor scourge, blaster's damage boost using blasts, etc does not affect proc damage. 
  • by contrast, controllers, defenders, mastermind's are relatively "meh" damage with their attacks, and therefore more likely to benefit from proc dmg.
• recharge of the power.
  • look at the Proc-Per-Minute of the proc. Say it procs 3.5 times per minute. That means, on average, once every 17 seconds. 
  • if the power is extremely fast cycling, like say Neutrino bolt (4 seconds base I think?), your chance to proc is very low. 
  • if the power's recharge rate is pretty close (say, 16 seconds recharge), then you have an excellent chance for those procs to fire every time you use it. 
  • if the power's recharge is very high (say, 90 seconds or 2 minutes), it becomes alllllllmost a guarantee the procs will fire every time you use it.
  • keep in mind, if you slot recharge directly into the power, that reduces the power's recharge and alters your proc chance
  • but GLOBAL recharge (set bonuses, luck of gambler pieces, hasten) make the power come back faster without lowering your proc chance. This is why you'll see some people going absolutely nuts stacking recharge bonuses. mechanically, it's very very useful)

Now, I'm still a set-bonus field.  When I slot lots of procs into a power, I hear voices of set bonuses that might have been cry out in terror, and suddenly silence.  So I tend to limit myself to three or less proc-heavy powers per character. That may or may not be an issue for you. Depends what your other slotting goals are and what other powers you have.

• Holds in particular are excellent candidates for slotting because of the sheer number of options.
  • However, on Holds, I do like to maintain at least a couple slots for acc/hold. 
  • Having procs do damage is nice, but I also rely on the Hold power to, well, HOLD the enemy. I'm quaint like that. Especailly on my controllers.
  • But you can probably squeeze in 3-5 procs on a hold, depending on your tolerance / desire to maintain hold duration. 
• Defense Debuffs that deal damage are another strong contender for proccing.
• PBAE melee powers also tend to have decent recharge times and good number of damage procs available.

 

While levelling, I wouldn't try to build up more than 2 proc heavy workhorses at once. Slots are at a premium low level. 

Also, consider running Tactics, or using a Kismet +Acc.  the more procs you use, the less slotted accuracy you probably have, and potentially fewer set bonuses for +acc to all powers. Having a five proc'd hold, or a six proc'd Infrigidate is great for damage..... but does nothing if you whiff because your accuracy sucks.

Thank you for the detail - I need to unpack this and apply it - fantastic.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Mashugana said:

How do you know when it is best to 'proc out' a power vs. going with and IO set or even just Damage and Acc IO's? I am especially interested in leveling more than end game. Where do procs make sense?

 

Thank you.

 

I am only going to discuss %damage procs, which could be expanded to some other %effect procs... I am NOT referring to global effects (e.g. Slow resists, +Recharge) from single enhancements.

 

My general rules:

1. Multiple-procs (i.e. more than 1 from different set) are primarily for low-damage scale ATs because %damage is invariant (for all ATs). If there is a better use for the slot (as a set bonus, or in another power, or *shudder* enhancement of a combat value) that is what the slot will be used for.
2. I focus on multi-%damage in AoE powers, specifically non-melee cones. I find that generally, once level 50 enhancements are available, the set bonuses are more valuable than %damage... and my experience has been that cones offer more "bang-for-the-slot" when they cycle faster than AoE "nukes". (Prior to level 50, you don't have that many slots so don't even worry too much about set bonuses, as long as Accuracy and Endurance are not an issue!)
3. I will admit to a fondness for adding %damage (and %magnitude) to single-target holds. There are almost always more options for %damage in hold powers than any other type of allowable enhancement.

Fast-cycling powers really shouldn't IMO be considered for %damage. Any %procs I have in such will be because they are part of a set. There may be some corner cases where I wouldn't immediately roll my eyes (I see a lot of builds with a single Perfect Zinger %Psi in Taunt) but writing only for myself I think there is an alternate way to use such powers/slots.

 

While leveling, for targeting powers I tackle Accuracy and Endurance first.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Hey there Lippy--

 

@macskull (and others, but I use his) has a link to a proc calculator in his signature.  If you open it (and save a copy so you can edit), you can play around with the parameters to get an idea of roughly how often a proc will activate.  all those parameters are available in Mids or in game.

 

In particular, I like to use procs when 1. they add functionality that I can't otherwise get in a power (like Avalanche knockdown); 2. they can be expected to activate a significant portion of the time; 3. I have an extra slot to add damage; 4. one or more of the above.

[TheZag]

If you are using mids and slot a proc,  you can hover your mouse over the damage display in the bottom left and it will show you the %chance that proc has based on your recharge.

 

In general though, for single target powers,  a recharge of 16 seconds before global recharge is applied will give you the maximum chance to proc.

 

60 seconds ÷ 3.5 ppm = 17.14 seconds per proc.  But proc rate is capped at 90% so...

17.14 × 90% = 15.43 seconds recharge for max proc rate.

 

Single target powers with longer recharge will have 90% chance and the proc chance decreases as their recharge is lowered (but not including global recharge).

 

AoE powers have different rules for determining their proc chance and includes the area hit by the power.  Large AoE with a 16 second recharge will proc less than a small AoE with a 16 second recharge.  For AoE powers i just check the proc chance through mids.  Their proc chance is still capped at 90% and i do get a good proc rate with the non-damaging lingering radiation attack.  2 damage procs turn it into a psuedo AoE so i drop it all the time instead of just on hard targets.

[Without_Pause]

A common way I have seen a damage proc used if in 6 slotting of a power and one of the slots is for D\R. You are likely getting enough recharge overall to where you won't miss it there and the damage proc, more so if a purple, adds a nice bonus to the damage. Obvious case is in a damage aura since recharge is essentially needless.

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

My personal rules of thumb (your milage may vary, see dealer for details, etc)

• If the character can already do good damage with the power straight out of the box, I avoid procs.
  • scrapper crit, brute fury, corruptor scourge, blaster's damage boost using blasts, etc does not affect proc damage.

 

This is strictly true, but somewhat misleading to have Brute fury and Blaster defiance in there alongside the crit-like things.

 

So, let's take a 100 damage power that, let's say, has a 50% proc rate for a 3.5PPM damage proc.  And an IO damage enhancement that's worth 35% damage enhancement.

 

So these are very similar values absent any inherents or ED.  The IO damage enhancement is worth 35 damage, the proc is worth 71 damage 50% of the time, so just a smidge over 35 damage.

 

If you add in any of the crit-like things (stalker, scrapper, corruptor), the IO damage enhancement is more valuable compared to the proc -- because it also enhances the damage of the crit-effect.  So if you crit for 200 base damage, with the enhancement it'll be 270 damage.  The proc will still just be a 50% chance for 71 damage.

 

On the other hand, Brute Fury or Blaster Defiance add the damage that they're going to add, regardless.  The common damage enhancer doesn't affect them -- so if you do 100 base damage, and you have Brute Fury to make it 280 damage, then the damage enhancement is still worth 35 damage, and the proc is worth aa 50% chance of 71 damage.

[Snarky]

I tend to under proc.  My belief is most people over proc.  A good build is very valuable. Which can get lost in damage damage damage speed run builds

[pblue]

I get that 16 seconds recharge is the magic number for single target damage in terms of best chance of getting the proc to fire. But how does that compare to say 4 second recharge attack over the course of 16 seconds?   In other words would 4 attempts at firing off the proc (albeit at a lower probability ) within the 16 second timeframe not match the 1 almost certain attempt triggering the proc? Not to mention that each of the faster attacks, even if it does not trigger the proc will still do it's regular damage (assuming you have the  Endurance to sustain it).

 

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

This is strictly true, but somewhat misleading to have Brute fury and Blaster defiance in there alongside the crit-like things.

.....

On the other hand, Brute Fury or Blaster Defiance add the damage that they're going to add, regardless.  The common damage enhancer doesn't affect them -- so if you do 100 base damage, and you have Brute Fury to make it 280 damage, then the damage enhancement is still worth 35 damage, and the proc is worth aa 50% chance of 71 damage.

 

Intruiging. I did not know that, and I stand corrected.  Thanks!

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Mashugana said:

Where do procs make sense?

 

It depends on the kind of proc.

General rule :

Damage and procs that affect enemies, in low damage AoEs first and then low damage single target if no AoE low damage to slot it in. The same goes for when I'm slotting defense debuff, slow, stun/disorient, and to-hit debuff enhancements of any kind.

Procs that buff you, in powers that are single target that recharge quickly to give them more chances to go off.

 

As far as sets, I rarely use whole sets.

There is often a sweet point to break a set over two or more powers - especially the archetype enhancements.

 

I use

Health - Numina + Recovery/regen,  Panacea +HP/+endurance  (and sometimes a Preventative medicine - absorb proc)

Stamina - Power Transfer +HP and and performance shifter +Endurance

 

Accurate Heal - Touch of the Nictus - chance for negative damage

Defense - Luck of the gambler - increased global recharge speed, Reactive defense - scaling damage resistance, karma - knockback protection

defense debuff : Achilles's Heel - chance for -Res - defense debuff set, Analyse Weakness +to hit

fear : Glimpse of the Abyss - chance for Psi damage.

Hold : Lockdown +2 Mag hold

knockback : forced feedback + recharge

Pets that stay close - Sovereign Right - RES bonus pets 40', Expedient Reinforcements - RES bonus pets 20'

Range AOE - Annihilation - chance for -Res, Bombardment - chance for fire damage, Positron's blast - chance for energy damage

Range single target - Devastation - chance for hold

Resist - Aegis - Psionic/Status protection, (if tank) Unbreakable+7.5 max hit points, Gladiator armor - Teleport protection/+Def (all)

Slow - Pacing of the Turtle - recharge slow

Taunt - perfect zinger - chance for Psionic damage

to-hit : Gaussian Fire Control - build up

to-hit debuff  : Dark Watcher's Despair - recharge slow - to-hit debuf set. 

 

 

Procs that I don't use and suggest not to use

Experienced Marksman - Snipe - quick snipe (you can never do a true sniper shot when this is slotted)

Ghost Widow's Embrace - Hold -  chance of Psi-damage (psi damage is good, but [I believe] you are better up slotting up the hold duration and/or recharge on hold powers)

Procs that add smashing or lethal damage (most enemy types have a good about of defense/resistance versus both smashing and lethal)

 

 

 

 

 

You can always use unslotters to pop enhancements that you want to swap out and back into your enhancement tray.

 

[TheZag]

37 minutes ago, pblue said:

I get that 16 seconds recharge is the magic number for single target damage in terms of best chance of getting the proc to fire. But how does that compare to say 4 second recharge attack over the course of 16 seconds?   In other words would 4 attempts at firing off the proc (albeit at a lower probability ) within the 16 second timeframe not match the 1 almost certain attempt triggering the proc? Not to mention that each of the faster attacks, even if it does not trigger the proc will still do it's regular damage (assuming you have the  Endurance to sustain it).

 

 

This is accurate,  but in the world of max proc damage,  only useful if you cant make an attack chain of attacks with high proc chance.  Low level with few attacks you should get that 1 proc within 16 seconds on a fast attack.  High level you have 4-5 attacks in the max proc chance range and you get a proc on nearly every attack.

 

Earth mastery on a controller can proc seismic smash with 5 damage procs at 90%.  Nearly every time i use it,  all 5 proc and it does around 530 damage without damage buffs.  I didnt proc out the rest of the build because i wanted survivability but you could go glass cannon mode and really do some crazy damage with the right power choices procced out.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, pblue said:

I get that 16 seconds recharge is the magic number for single target damage in terms of best chance of getting the proc to fire. But how does that compare to say 4 second recharge attack over the course of 16 seconds?   In other words would 4 attempts at firing off the proc (albeit at a lower probability ) within the 16 second timeframe not match the 1 almost certain attempt triggering the proc? Not to mention that each of the faster attacks, even if it does not trigger the proc will still do it's regular damage (assuming you have the  Endurance to sustain it).

 

 

I'll tackle this, although I'm not an expert in the proc math.  These numbers may not be exact but I hope you'll get the gist.

 

Let's take Bitter Freeze Ray on a blaster.  It's got a 15 second recharge.  Without any recharge built in, my proc calculator says it has a 102.08% chance to proc, which we know maxes out at 90%.  I believe the damage at lvl 50 would be 48.something.  So if you hit an enemy, you will do your normal damage (let's call that 335) plus a 90% chance of an additional 48, and a 10% chance of nothing.  Your expected average incremental damage is a little over 43.  You will never do exactly 43 additional damage, but you will do 48 additional damage a bunch, and 0 additional damage a bit.

 

Ok, now let's look at the same power with 100% recharge built in (that's 2 level 50+5 recharge IOs plus a bit).  Your chance to proc drops to 58.33% and your recharge drops to 7.5 seconds.  When you hit, almost 60% of the time you will do an incremental 48 damage, and a little more than 40% of the time you will do nothing additional.  That's an average of 28 additional damage per shot.  Wait, that's half the recharge time and more than half the expected incremental damage!  That's great!  But...

 

I didn't work in animation/activation time.  I'm not sure of the difference between Arcana time and normal time, so I'll use normal.  Activation time is 2.5 seconds.  Total activation and recharge time in the first case is 17.5 seconds, with expected incremental damage of 43, so roughly 2.5 expected additional damage per second.  In the second case, total time for activation and recharge is 10 seconds, with incremental damage of 28, so roughly 2.8 expected additional damage per second.

 

Now, I am absolutely certain that I didn't do this math exactly right, but those two numbers are awfully close to each other, and I would not be at all surprised to see that in truth they result in the exact same number.  Which is how, I believe, they developed the PPM formula in the first place.

[aethereal]

Normal damage procs do about 71 damage, not 48.  Purple procs do, I forget, around 105.

 

16b seconds is not the magic anything, and if your proc rate is over 90%, and this capped, you will do more dps by spring local recharge than by leaving it unslotted, all else being equal, and assuming you use the power on cooldown.

 

The big reason not to slot local recharge is because it lowers proc rates a disproportionate amount when combined with global recharge.

Edited March 11, 2022 by aethereal

[oedipus_tex]

I think the fascinating answer here is that there is no easy correct answer, but a lot of answers that will still work very well. I think that is part of the reason City of Heroes maintains such a loyal following over almost 20 years. I am still constantly looking at builds I've had for a while and discovering ways I could do it better or different. Even the most experienced players are probably doing that as well, and once you understand that is part of the appeal of the IO system, it's possible to relax and run with it. There are very few players who stick to a single build over multiple years, so don't be afraid to try different thing. 

 

 

The one major exception I'd say is that if you have a clickable power that has +ToHit in it, like Aim or Build Up or one of their various clones, you should (almost) always slot Gaussian's Chance for Build Up in it. That's a case where the recharge on those powers is pretty much guaranteed to trigger a proc and there are few justifications for skipping it. If you can understand the essence of that statement--that there are some powers where the value of the proc is really high and you feel like you couldn't live without it--then you're beginning to understand the core of the proc system and can build up from there.

Edited March 11, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Communistpenguin]

I always slot a chance for +2 mag hold in single target holds. I also like to slot chance for heal into blast powers. I have spent most of my time in this game without a self heal so I like things that heal me. 

[Carnifax]

37 minutes ago, Communistpenguin said:

I always slot a chance for +2 mag hold in single target holds. I also like to slot chance for heal into blast powers. I have spent most of my time in this game without a self heal so I like things that heal me. 

I usually slot it in the AoE hold, if I can. That way I'm pretty sure the bosses & all will stop moving.

 

If playing a Defender (Time for example) I'll usually proc a single target hold out the wazoo if they have one. Works very nicely on my Time/Sonic because I can lay down lots of -resist then procbomb the toughest thing in the spawn.

[TheZag]

9 hours ago, Communistpenguin said:

I always slot a chance for +2 mag hold in single target holds. I also like to slot chance for heal into blast powers. I have spent most of my time in this game without a self heal so I like things that heal me. 

 

If it takes ranged damage enhancements then use the chance for hold from the ranged damage set.  Its also 2 mag hold but the proc rate is higher.  Or use them both and land a hold on elite bosses in 1 attack.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:42 PM, oedipus_tex said:

The one major exception I'd say is that if you have a clickable power that has +ToHit in it, like Aim or Build Up or one of their various clones, you should (almost) always slot Gaussian's Chance for Build Up in it. That's a case where the recharge on those powers is pretty much guaranteed to trigger a proc and there are few justifications for skipping it. If you can understand the essence of that statement--that there are some powers where the value of the proc is really high and you feel like you couldn't live without it--then you're beginning to understand the core of the proc system and can build up from there.

All well said, and to that I'd like to add what I understand to be one or two times that you'd want to save that proc for elsewhere, namely the TACTICS power from the Leadership pool.  Some people have done testing and it apparently its chance to proc is based off of how many it's "affecting," so that means anyone you're teaming with:

• On a team with 8?  Eight chances to proc! 
• In league?  Hoo boy do you have chances! 
• Are you a Mastermind, or teaming with a Mastermind?  Each pet is a chance to proc. 

As I recall the testing saying, anyway. 

 

Because of the above and how I like to team (I almost never solo), I often tend to save it for Tactics, but that might be something of a bias on my part.

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

• Are you a Mastermind, or teaming with a Mastermind?  Each pet is a chance to proc. 

 

This is all true, but here is my thinking about Masterminds and the Gaussian's %BuildUp.... it's not worth it for most Masterminds. Masterminds have low damage scales, so the extra Build Up, while not meaningless is boosting already weak tea. Masterminds also have an Endurance tax, so trying to do enough attacks to benefit from the extra Build Up (by itself) is costing more end for the MM, as opposed to slotting the power to keep it up and/or improving the benefit to allies/henchmen/pets. Also if the MM is making attacks (to benefit from %Build Up), it likely means that the MM isn't doing other things to improve the damage output (or survivability) of the henchmen.

 

On my MM builds, I find that I never have more than two slots for Tactics, even on the builds that have a LOT of attacks to support the henchmen (with Knockdown, -Res, etc.). I simply use one or two Cytoskeletons in my MM builds.

 

For my Crabbermind, I absolutely have the Gaussian's %Build Up. IIRC The damage scale for VEATS is 1.0, whereas for MMs it is still 0.55.

[Clave Dark 5]

My Bots/Emp MM has two attacks, the simple Pulse Rifle and Arcane Bolt.  Any damage is good damage, especially combined with Bots and a couple of Hold procs on each of those attacks.  Heals are easy otherwise.  But I can see this subjective, sure.

[tidge]

Mileage varies of course. But if a Robotics MM wants to lean into %procs...

 

My Robots MM has the AoE Photon Grenade slotted for -Res (5 pieces of Annihilation for the global Endurance Discount and +MaxEnd) and Knockdown (Overwhelming Force). This is an example of the set bonuses being enough to make me not care so much about %procs, but that power is a particularly good one (better than Pulse Rifle Blast IMO) for %damage (and other effects) for offense. IIRC with no slotted recharge in Photon Grenade, the -Res piece will have a ~40% chance to proc, the 3.5 PPM %damage will have something like 50% chance to proc, and (Absolute Amazement) %-ToHit should be above 60% chance to proc... and these are for each target in the AoE!

 

Either choice (all %procs in Photon Grenade or minimal %procs in it) feels like a better choice for trying for a MM to inflict damage than Pulse Rifle + Tactics (w/ Build Up). One other advantage I see to Photon Grenade over a ST attack from the rifle is that you should draw more aggro to the MM than from just using ST attacks.