What would happen in PVE builds could be used in PVP?

[The_Warpact]

So @Troo recent thread got me to thinking about if PVE builds could be used for PVP. I was thinking of bringing it up in the thread but I believe that it would detract from his question and derail it.

It was brought up also that control types would rule but, I think with inspiration management this wouldn't be the case. Plus, factoring in alot of different powersets across the ATs, I could see teams of domi/troller causing havoc but, Blasters and possibly Sentinels hitting them from ranged would equal it out to a degree.

A melee type with a breakfree could really destroy any AT in close, and Stalkers would be a wildcard.

Mastermind on the otherhand this would be where I would get lost, I dunno if the pets swarming coupled with whatever secondary would really turn the tide in any battle. A control type could lock them down but what if they ate a mix or ranged and melee plus you have to contend with the MM. I think a kin in any form would really be a force.

But, then again so can alot of other sets. I mean realistically what could go wrong? The PVE crowd could have a fighting chance and to me PVP would go into a totally different direction. 

One thing of note, Incarnate abilities would be a no no. Balance or imbalance, what are your thoughts?

[Greycat]

You ... can use PVE builds for PVP already? That was generally the thing when PVP came out to begin with.  "Builds" tend to be more for the arena-focused (and maybe RV) crowd... note, I use "crowd" loosely here.

 

Hell, a lot of the current perma-everything-capped-everything PVE builds would give a lot of historic "good" PVP builds a hard time. You just have to be aware of how the way power effects change in PVP - at least in zones - affect your play.

[oedipus_tex]

Keeping in mind I'm not a PVPer...

 

IMO Debuff would rule PVP and melee classes wouldn't be able to even get a hit in, short of using their limited ranged mezzes to try to short circuit the opposition. I imagine one of the most feared powers would be Trick Arrow's Ice Arrow, which is combination Hold + proc damage + -Special on a very fast recharge. Poison would be a rightly fear set, as would Cold Domination. Basically anything you associate with AV busting in the current game would be terrifying to fight as a player. Roll up an AE mission with these sets and try it out if you're curious. 🙂

 

Power Boosted Electric Blast toons might be something to fear, too.

Edited March 22, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Glacier Peak]

Pre-Issue 13 PvP you say?

[Troo]

What would happen in PVE builds could be used in PVP?

or maybe even in one zone.. or an arena setting.. sure it would favor some more than others which is not too dissimilar from the current setup.

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Pre-Issue 13 PvP you say?

Ok so bear with me because that was along time ago and now my noggin is full of life safety and Healthcare stuff.

But, was it like that? I remember my rad/rad corr being a holy terror in SC but not how.

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Keeping in mind I'm not a PVPer...

 

IMO Debuff would rule PVP and melee classes wouldn't be able to even get a hit in, short of using their limited ranged mezzes to try to short circuit the opposition. I imagine one of the most feared powers would be Trick Arrow's Ice Arrow, which is combination Hold + proc damage + -Special on a very fast recharge. Poison would be a rightly fear set, as would Cold Domination. Basically anything you associate with AV busting in the current game would be terrifying to fight as a player. Roll up an AE mission with these sets and try it out if you're curious. 🙂

 

Power Boosted Electric Blast toons might be something to fear, too.

Which would essentially trade one meta for a new meta. Not that I entirely agree this would be the meta. But PvP as it stands now is extremely blaster friendly.

[PeregrineFalcon]

@The_Warpact I don't know if you're just doing interesting thought experiments, or actually trying to get more people to PvP.

 

If it's the later you're wasting your time. No amount of interesting threads, or special events, is going to lure a bunch of people back into PvP at this late date.

[The_Warpact]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

@The_Warpact I don't know if you're just doing interesting thought experiments, or actually trying to get more people to PvP.

 

If it's the later you're wasting your time. No amount of interesting threads, or special events, is going to lure a bunch of people back into PvP at this late date.

More experimental than anything I just want people's thoughts on the matter and its a good way for me to pass the time at work.

 

My pvp is gone, those memories will be a highlight of remembrance of bygone days of this game.

 

I've seen the negativity to even remotely consider it has people crawling out of the woodwork rabidly gnashing their teeth at the very idea. Its been suggested that the PvPers are bad but, I think its both sides to a degree.

 

Besides my nostalgia dictates that "if" pre I13 pvp were to return maybe some of those good times would return, flights of fancy to be sure but, still not a bad way to pass the time.

[Doomguide2005]

     <-- also not a PvP player beyond some extremely casual SG stuff and zone encounters in Bloody Bay and RV on my main owing to collecting Shivans regularly and well I  barely recall what I was doing in RV other than it was probably PvE related badging or collecting for a Heavy etc..  And a few times I did to help an SG mate test some aspect of their PvP build, get a badge (yes I'll go die a bunch for you) or just helping someone with theorycrafting a PvP build (SR characters in particular) outside of actual engagement.  

     Mostly it'll be very fast, highly mobile encounters especially in zone.  Standing relatively still slugging it out is only happening by the agreement of all parties involved.  Stealth and Perception is far more important than in PvE encounters.  Softcap/I-cap, lololol, but still important as a starting point -> what's your defense after you factor in, potentially,  Aim+BU+/Gaussian's+1or more yellow etc.. against a couple energy melee heavy hitters.  Does the target manage to hit Elude or other t9 before the second blow.  God help the squishy who isn't packing an Amp with mez protection and carrying breakfrees.  Not sure offhand how it works these days but Fold Space/Cmbt TP onto a minefield with a prepped foe waiting (with the above set up) was fun on Live as I recall at one point.  The return of Ice/Nrg with procs and other IO toys.

 

And so on.

      

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

30 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Besides my nostalgia dictates that "if" pre I13 pvp were to return maybe some of those good times would return, flights of fancy to be sure but, still not a bad way to pass the time.

It's funny. I just posted in another thread addressing this exact thing.

 

Short version: the PvEers were cheering the devs on when they killed PvP with Issue 13. Because of how rude and insulting the PvPers were to them. That's the "good times" you're referring to.

 

And yeah, I know what you mean about passing the time at work. Some days are definitely busier than others.  😃

[The_Warpact]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's funny. I just posted in another thread addressing this exact thing.

 

Short version: the PvEers were cheering the devs on when they killed PvP with Issue 13. Because of how rude and insulting the PvPers were to them. That's the "good times" you're referring to.

 

And yeah, I know what you mean about passing the time at work. Some days are definitely busier than others.  😃

I was thinking more of the times in zone when I was using my nin/nin stalker in SC and tp the fire/nrg blaster that was sniping everyone into my lil trap. 

I largely ignored the haters I was having too much fun at the time.

[biostem]

The problem with this is that the game is designed around how NPCs treat players and their powers/pets.  Players know to go directly after the MM and ignore the pets, for instance.  Powers are also generally centered around the kinds of resistances/defenses/mez protection levels that NPCs have.  What you'd run into would be a game of stealth vs perception and defense vs tohit buffs - fundamentally different than the rest of the encounters one would run up against...

[The_Warpact]

6 minutes ago, biostem said:

The problem with this is that the game is designed around how NPCs treat players and their powers/pets.  Players know to go directly after the MM and ignore the pets, for instance.  

Funny enough I was in Warburg going for a nuke and had a 3 blaster team give a go at our 3 person team. They never paid attention to me (zombie/psn) just to the pets, I just flew around giving them my lovely debuffs while the zombies gnawed on them.

It was fun for a bit then a couple people joined with them who I'm guessing were people more specialized for it and then what I thought was fun turned into a lopsided "fite clubbin". Specifically targeting my MM at 5 to 1 and then 5 vs 1 on my teammates.

So we left, no biggie got shivans instead. So I gotta guess it has to be the player who's experienced vs those that don't. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

At this point I mostly play melee builds with a lot of knockdown and debuffs, so people would whine about that.  If I had mostly melee builds that were optimized for damage I think people would whine about that instead.

[Glacier Peak]

22 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Ok so bear with me because that was along time ago and now my noggin is full of life safety and Healthcare stuff.

But, was it like that? I remember my rad/rad corr being a holy terror in SC but not how.

Oh yeah, I had a Level 30 Sonic/Rad Corruptor that was loads of fun to play in Siren's Call back then, it was even slotted with just Level 30 IOs. There was enough leeway in builds at that level to allow for pretty much any play style to work.

 

Just a few things, not exhaustive by any means, but...

 

- PvP IOs didn't exist in Issue 13. The Chance for Teleport Protection for example has made Teleport Target (enemy), coupled with the built in invulnerable delay on the TP'd target makes /Traps powerset styles moot. There's a lot more going on behind what I just said, but I'm writing lazy.

- Telekinesis doesn't force control the enemy player away (assuming they didn't have a tray full of breakfrees).

- Damage... well actually damage spiking has always been the biggest value added in solo and team play in PvP, so no change there really

- Elusivity 

- +5 IOs

- PvP recipes used to only drop from defeating enemy players

 

But Homecoming has done a bunch of positive things for PvP

- /Arena command works anywhere to set up matches

- Movement suppression is turned off in PvP zones and in arena matches by default

- Added the higher level barriers so that while Siren's Call is capped at 30, players can use powers from up to Level 34. See also Recluse's Victory having access to Incarnate Alpha slot only

- PvP fakkolades (Fake Accolades) which can be purchased from vendors in PvP zones and the arena

- Removed all but a few temporary powers in PvP zones to prevent some bad actors taking advantage of certain powers. Certain temporary powers are still accessible and many can be purchased from the same vendor as above. 

- Fixed many exploitable geometry holes throughout PvP zones, of course many still remain and have been submitted in the Geometry Error thread to be addressed. 

- Added new PvP arena maps!

 

I'll just say lastly that the Homecoming team has been very open to suggestions from the PvP community, going so far as to allow testing of power changes on the beta shard and rolling them back if they intended effects didn't meet expected outcomes. That, along with other ideas to promote interest in PvP (community reps, organized events, potential alternative PvP game modes, etc.) has given me a lot of confidence in the all volunteer team. The crux of the problem isn't that the mechanics are messed up, or that powers are over tuned, or that some damage spikes from a single player can kill any non Tank ATs in less than a second - it's that our community is pretty small and it's mostly made up of returning players who either enjoy PvP or don't - and you can't PvP by yourself (okay okay unless you dual boxes for those badges 😉).

Edited March 23, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[battlewraith]

9 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's funny. I just posted in another thread addressing this exact thing.

 

Short version: the PvEers were cheering the devs on when they killed PvP with Issue 13. Because of how rude and insulting the PvPers were to them. That's the "good times" you're referring to.

 

I think it's reasonable to say this is bullshit. Pvp haters may have cheered the fallout from the I13 changes, which were aimed at making things easier for casual players, but they were just a vocal minority. 

 

I was a PVPEC server rep and organizer. I hosted events and training sessions to try to get people involved in pvp. There were several difficulties in doing this. Pvp haters was one of them, but I don't think it was the biggest problem. I was in constant competition with other events--badging, TFs, etc.  A related issue was incentives. A lot of people just didn't feel like they got anything material out of the time spent--which is no doubt why the devs put badges and whatnot in the zones. Then there were the issues of building for pvp, dealing with pvp mechanics etc. Despite these issues, we did get pve player participation in PVPEC events. The problem was that the organizers had to do all the groundwork. As long as we scheduled, advertised, and ran these events people would come. If we stopped, they did not continue by organizing their own events. 

 

Also the idea that one thing killed pvp is wrong. It was/is a death of a thousand cuts situation. 

For instance, back in the day there was a lot of pvp activity on test server, including massive server vs. server battles. The devs didn't support this and wouldn't approve any schedule so the events were cancelled.

After the arena was introduced, it received no new maps or features for a long time. The interface was confusing from the get go. At some point the arena stopped working altogether and the was no arena pvp for a substantial period of game history. 

Base raids were introduced, broken, and then just ignored. 

 

If pve had had the same lack of development, and history of broken functionality, it would've died as well.

[Greycat]

21 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

After the arena was introduced, it received no new maps or features for a long time. The interface was confusing from the get go. At some point the arena stopped working altogether and the was no arena pvp for a substantial period of game history. 

Base raids were introduced, broken, and then just ignored.

 

 

Absolutely this.

 

Base raids were a mess - I know my SG wanted to try a raid early on, arranged it with another SG, and for one reason or another it would just cancel or not start or whatnot. We could never get it started, and everyone pretty much lost interest in trying after.  Arena ... worked, sometimes, but people would try to join the default (versus player) "scheduled" events and those would never start. (Sort of like joining "first available" TFs in the LFG queue... has that ever worked?)

[A Cat]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, The_Warpact said:

I was thinking more of the times in zone when I was using my nin/nin stalker in SC and tp the fire/nrg blaster that was sniping everyone into my lil trap. 

I largely ignored the haters I was having too much fun at the time.

I remember there was a watch tower that people got tped into on the hero side SC base and a weird cave thing that villains got tped into under the villain base, so hopefully the unsuspecting target would be hung up on geometry long enough to kill them. 

[The_Warpact]

51 minutes ago, A Cat said:

I remember there was a watch tower that people got tped into on the hero side SC base and a weird cave thing that villains got tped into under the villain base, so hopefully the unsuspecting target would be hung up on geometry long enough to kill them. 

I had heard of it but, never experienced it. I know the villain one exists a VG mate found it a few months back and was under the map.