Total Noob question : how does one do damage as a Controller ?

[ZEdglord]

Hi all !

 

I was wondering how does one actually get anything done solo as a Controller. I know Illusion has acceptable damage (until you get Phantom Army then it becomes hilarious), but outside of Illu, how does one even do damage ? Like, you either have buffs or debuffs, which are great ! But you can't get anything done like that can you ?

[SeraphimKensai]

My plants/trick arrow controller will often out damage your average PUG blaster.

[SeraphimKensai]

Debuffs, procs, powers that have synergy.

 

Hell you could even roll with a /kin controller and ride the damage cap for controllers.

[ZEdglord]

28 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Debuffs, procs, powers that have synergy.

 

Hell you could even roll with a /kin controller and ride the damage cap for controllers.

I get it, Controller is great, but how do you DO damage ? None of the skills even do damage past the first two ! That's what I'm curious about.

[oedipus_tex]

It's going to depend a lot on the sets involved.

 

Gravity is probably the smoothest ride. Lift does extremely good damage for a Controller. Propel does decent, not outstanding, damage. I think level 2 Gravity Controllers may have the highest single target DPA of any character in that level range just because of how hard Lift hits with Containment.

 

Fire and Mind Controllers both have very fast casting single target holds that can be procced out for good damage in the ~250 DPA range.

 

Plant Control's Roots power does double the damage of the other AoE immobilizes. It's actually as good as a Defender's Explosive Blast, but with double the area of effect and half the recharge.  Carrion Creepers is a proc monster that delivers substantial damage.

 

Fire Control's Hot Feet does about the same damage of a free Fireball cast every 10 seconds. 

 

Dark Control takes -ToHit sets, which makes all of the powers very procc'able.

 

 

On the secondary side, a few sets stand out for Damage. Kinetics, of course. Also Trick Arrow and Storm. More subtly, Nature provides a big +Damage boost. Cold Domination can proc out Infrigidate.  

 

One trap to avoid: You probably want to skip the Controller single target blast available in most APPs. They are mostly not very good. If you need an additional single target blast, you're often better off taking the T1 immobilize power, which typically recharge in 4 seconds, and are available from level 1.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[ZEdglord]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's going to depend a lot on the sets involved.

 

Gravity is probably the smoothest ride. Lift does extremely good damage for a Controller. Propel does decent, not outstanding, damage. I think level 2 Gravity Controllers may have the highest single target DPA of any character in that level range just because of how hard Lift hits with Containment.

 

Fire and Mind Controllers both have very fast casting single target holds that can be procced out for good damage in the ~250 DPA range.

 

Plant Control's Roots power does double the damage of the other AoE immobilizes. It's actually as good as a Defender's Explosive Blast, but with double the area of effect and half the recharge.  Carrion Creepers is a proc monster that delivers substantial damage.

 

Fire Control's Hot Feet does about the same damage of a free Fireball cast every 10 seconds. 

 

Dark Control takes -ToHit sets, which makes all of the powers very procc'able.

 

 

On the secondary side, a few sets stand out for Damage. Kinetics, of course. Also Trick Arrow and Storm. More subtly, Nature provides a big +Damage boost. Cold Domination can proc out Infrigidate.  

 

One trap to avoid: You probably want to skip the Controller single target blast available in most APPs. They are mostly not very good. If you need an additional single target blast, you're often better off taking the T1 immobilize power, which typically recharge in 4 seconds, and are available from level 1.  

 

Does that mean you just spam two/three powers for damage all the way through ? I think I'm used to a different definition of what a Proc is. A proc is an effect that happens off another effect. How do those do damage on Controller ?

[Chelsea Rorec]

1 hour ago, ZEdglord said:

Hi all !

 

I was wondering how does one actually get anything done solo as a Controller. I know Illusion has acceptable damage (until you get Phantom Army then it becomes hilarious), but outside of Illu, how does one even do damage ? Like, you either have buffs or debuffs, which are great ! But you can't get anything done like that can you ?

I made an Earth/storm then filled it with 26 procs.

 

[oedipus_tex]

Just now, ZEdglord said:

 

Does that mean you just spam two/three powers for damage all the way through ? I think I'm used to a different definition of what a Proc is. A proc is an effect that happens off another effect. How do those do damage on Controller ?

 

 

Here's an example of procs in a power:

 

 

 

Holds like Char that have a fast animation speed are ideal for damage procs, because the fast cast speed means a high DPA. In this case, average damage is about 317 per cast. With the anim time of 1.07 seconds, that's a DPA of 296. That's high for an 8 second recharge power. 

 

Keep in mind, damage from procs are averages. Each proc has a chance to fire. On average, the damage will work out to an additional +317. But, sometimes it could be as high as +534, or as low as +0. That's the nature of chance.

[ZEdglord]

38 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Here's an example of procs in a power:

 

 

 

Holds like Char that have a fast animation speed are ideal for damage procs, because the fast cast speed means a high DPA. In this case, average damage is about 317 per cast. With the anim time of 1.07 seconds, that's a DPA of 296. That's high for an 8 second recharge power. 

 

Keep in mind, damage from procs are averages. Each proc has a chance to fire. On average, the damage will work out to an additional +317. But, sometimes it could be as high as +534, or as low as +0. That's the nature of chance.

Oh, okay ! That's so much more clear to me. Gotcha, so I need enhancements to proc those effects. I guess my vision is morphed because of the early levels gameplay.

[Without_Pause]

Another obvious aspect is that all Controllers sans Mind also become easier to do damage once a pet gets involved. Once Controllers open up Epics at 35, they will get more direct damage attacks as well. They can, if needed, add in something like Arcane Bolt for additional damage. Saying that, soloing them will be on the slower side than other ATs. However, they can do it rather safely as I can have a Controller go through mobs without taking any damage at times. The point isn't damage. The point is control and debuffs/buffs/heals. I don't think I have rolled a Controller on HC which I don't it couldn't solo if need be. Honestly, a big con for soloing a Controller is managing the end to do so which may take some time to get down.

[oedipus_tex]

If you're going to solo with this class, in most cases I think the solution is to fight as many enemies as a time as you think you can handle, at a low difficult setting, probably with bosses turned off. -1 x3 is probably a reasonable setting for a semi-built Troller to handle, but it depends on the sets. A few of them are kind of apoplectic too. For example, Electric Control has excellent solo control of average sized groups, but low damage. So Electric on its own is a slow soloist, but e.g. Electric/Trick Arrow makes up for some of it.

 

Controllers (and Dominators) are meant to handle big groups of enemies at a time. Their Controls are only up every 90-120 seconds prior to Recharge enhancements. That drives a strategy built around taking on lots of stuff.

 

Specifically, what you're looking for is the ability to make inspirations rain down on the character. You want fast inspiration churn so you can chug down reds, purples, and blues to keep yourself pressing forward. Bosses provide good XP but also slow down your inspiration rate. Once you've found a setting with good inspiration rain, you can try increasing the number of enemies. I'd increase up to x8 before I'd increase the level. Having more enemies you can mow down quickly will give you a lot more inspirations than adding +difficulty will.

Edited April 22, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[ZEdglord]

23 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Another obvious aspect is that all Controllers sans Mind also become easier to do damage once a pet gets involved. Once Controllers open up Epics at 35, they will get more direct damage attacks as well. They can, if needed, add in something like Arcane Bolt for additional damage. Saying that, soloing them will be on the slower side than other ATs. However, they can do it rather safely as I can have a Controller go through mobs without taking any damage at times. The point isn't damage. The point is control and debuffs/buffs/heals. I don't think I have rolled a Controller on HC which I don't it couldn't solo if need be. Honestly, a big con for soloing a Controller is managing the end to do so which may take some time to get down.

I understand that the point isn't damage, but if you don't do damage, you're never clearing anything. This isn't at all a speedrun toon or anything of the sort. It's just being able to kill three ennemies without dying. But at very low level there probably isn't much to do against that.

[ZEdglord]

15 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

If you're going to solo with this class, in most cases I think the solution is to fight as many enemies as a time as you think you can handle, at a low difficult setting, probably with bosses turned off. -1 x3 is probably a reasonable setting for a semi-built Troller to handle, but it depends on the sets. A few of them are kind of apoplectic too. For example, Electric Control has excellent solo control of average sized groups, but low damage. So Electric on its own is a slow soloist, but e.g. Electric/Trick Arrow makes up for some of it.

 

Controllers (and Dominators) are meant to handle big groups of enemies at a time. Their Controls are only up every 90-120 seconds prior to Recharge enhancements. That drives a strategy built around taking on lots of stuff.

 

Specifically, what you're looking for is the ability to make inspirations rain down on the character. You want fast inspiration churn so you can chug down reds, purples, and blues to keep yourself pressing forward. Bosses provide good XP but also slow down your inspiration rate. Once you've found a setting with good inspiration rain, you can try increasing the number of enemies. I'd increase up to x8 before I'd increase the level. Having more enemies you can mow down quickly will give you a lot more inspirations than adding +difficulty will.

I might try that ! I tend to not see the point of Trick Arrow (though I never played it myself) because it seems to just be more control, and no damage - though I guess with Procs that can change.

[Riverdusk]

If it fits your theme at all (or if you can make it fit or don't care), arcane bolt in the sorcery pool is actually a pretty good attack now.  So, between your single target immobilize, your hold, and an arcane bolt you can get a pretty decent attack chain right there by level 4 if you want.

 

If you have a secondary that gives you +tohit or -defense you can also reliably use temp powers to attack with.  There is the old blackwand and nemesis staff that you get for free and are unlimited.  Their damage scales up automatically and while not fantastic, their dpa isn't horrible, especially whichever one you use that gets the "bonus damage". 

 

For AoE, charges of plasmatic taser that you can get at the P2W vendor for 5,000 inf for 24 charges (kind of ridiculously cheap imo), are amazing.  Basically like getting the power "energy torrent" for virtually free.  Most controllers are in great position to use it as their aoe immobilize can control its knockback.

 

All this is one of the reasons why  /cold is probably my favorite controller secondary.  You start with infrigidate which can be heavily procced into another attack on its own, but it also lowers defense so temp attacks can be used.  Sleet then hits everyone with massive -def so you can freely fire off plasmatic tasers.  You also get virtually unlimited endurance (temps can be a bit endurance heavy too).

 

Controllers seem extremely easy to start throwing out damage with now a days if you use all the tools.  Not to sound like an old man, but I remember the days before all the temps, the days before containment damage, and the days where there were no good pool attacks.  Now, THAT was slow going trying to solo a controller.  

[oedipus_tex]

TA is a very strong secondary, especially on Trollers. Partly because it has good debuffs and abilities overall. But partly because of how effective it is when procc'ed out, especially on a normally low damage AT like Controller.

 

[PLVRIZR]

It's called a "Controller" for a reason? 😁

 

Per the previous comments, you can proc out the holds, that have damage attributes.  My only "real" controller is a remake from Live.  Ice/Emp.  Pre Jack Frost (or ex-ed down), the damage is pathetic, but I didn't create him to solo...as was the philosophy of pre I-whatever Live...the best strategy was a balanced/mixed team.  He rocked the house, being able to buff the melee toons with Fort, unlock anyone with Clear Mind, buff the entire team with regen and end and lock down the bosses with ST Ice Block (along with a giant ice patch to create a flopping fish mayhem for all the baddies).  There are some days that I miss those days....

[capricorpse]

this may be extremely basic advice but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.  Just in case you aren't aware - Controllers have an inherent ability called Containment, which makes their powers always do double damage to enemies that have been locked down with some kind of control effect.  Unfortunately not all of them apply (i think Confuse and Fear are the exceptions to Containment) but anyone Immobilized, Held, Disoriented/Stunned, or Asleep will take double damage.  For instance, using Spectral Wounds after the target has been Blinded can often take a huge chunk off their health compared to the reverse.  Even more so with Gravity - you will not only get Containment damage but also trigger the special Impact damage bonus if you use Lift or Propel on a target that is affected by Gravity Distortion.  Impact triggers even if they are not fully held, like a Boss that would need two or more casts for the Hold to take... hold.  Mind Controllers get a lot of mileage when soloing by casting Mass Hypnosis on a group, and then picking them  off one by one with their 3 strong single target damage attacks while everyone else is asleep.  So a big part of damage as a Controller is the order you are using your powers.  in my experience it usually looks like this :

 

Buff self > hard controls (if non damage) > AoE Immobilize (DoT) > AoE damage > Single Target damage anything leftover, repeat.

 

Obviously throw your heals and other buffs in wherever they are relevant.  In the Mind Control case, it's different because anyone asleep will wake up if they get hit with something like Fireball.   I believe damage procs hit containment as well?  someone correct me if that's not the case.  If they do, then use your proc-monster AoE hold after the Immobilize to double any damage procs.  However, I definitely recommend getting the real lockdowns done before you start throwing AoE damage at them because it can get you a lot of uhhhh sudden bullet implants. 

 

As said above, Arcane Bolt is a really good power now, with high damage and a chance to instantly recharge.  However, I want to also point out that Wall of Force is an amazing AoE that you can take from the Force of Will pool, though unfortunately you can't have both that and Sorcery.  The single-target blast in Force of Will pool is ...not good.  If you are using a set with few damaging powers, maybe take it and give it some procs, but TBH the single-target debuff Weaken Resolve is decent and would be better as a pool-opener since it debuffs Def, Res, and To-Hit.   But Wall of Force is awesome.  It might not seem like much when you check it out in the Powers info, but don't let it fool you.  It is light on your endurance, has quick recharge, a surprisingly wide range, and can take several damage procs.  Plus it usually knocks down a bunch of the enemies which is helpful.  I have it on my Gravity/Kinetics controller and it really slams!  especially if you throw some range enh in the mix.  It's one of the widest cone attacks I can think of. 

 

***Edited to add:  Wall of Force is also great because if you have a couple of skippable powers in the early game, you can have it at level 14.  it makes a big difference for early controller damage, just doing the AoE immobilize and Wall of Force on loop, while Holding the harder targets.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by capricorpse

[Without_Pause]

58 minutes ago, ZEdglord said:

I understand that the point isn't damage, but if you don't do damage, you're never clearing anything. This isn't at all a speedrun toon or anything of the sort. It's just being able to kill three ennemies without dying. But at very low level there probably isn't much to do against that.

I soloed across what I think is four story arcs going from level 1 to 9 on my both my Grav/ta and Plant/ta. Said arcs included defeat alls and Frostfire. I've soled them since then as well when I wanted to play them, but teams weren't happening. No, not all Controllers can solo as easily out of the box as those two can, but still. It can be done. Hell, I soloed on Controllers back in the day even on level 25 common IO slotting so none of this proc business.

[Ankhammon]

8 hours ago, ZEdglord said:

Hi all !

 

I was wondering how does one actually get anything done solo as a Controller. I know Illusion has acceptable damage (until you get Phantom Army then it becomes hilarious), but outside of Illu, how does one even do damage ? Like, you either have buffs or debuffs, which are great ! But you can't get anything done like that can you ?

I get what you are saying. I've had to wrap my head around the idea of controllers my self. The thing to think of when trying out a controller (early on particularly) is to remember that once you have containment then any damage you are doing outside of procs is doubled. so that held LT. is not only not doing you damage but the paltry 20 pts of damage your tier 1 immob is doing is actually 40 pts.

 

Then there are other things to think of that isn't damage but effectively is.

For instance a confuse like possess will allow you to concentrate on other bad guys and he even helps you level up. It's a strange thing but the damage he does while slightly lowering the exp per kill will actually raise your kills per minute significantly so it's a win for you as long as you hit the bad guy he's damaging at all.

Then never ignore the secondary and what it can do. if you get a power like Envenome (Poison) then you are adding a bunch of -resistance which could make the previously mentioned immob to an extra 30% damage (not doing the complete math workup here guys) and now it's doing 52 damage. This might put you closing in on blaster damage.

 

All of a sudden you see that even if you don't have a lot of things that cause damage it starts adding up quickly.

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, I think some people jumped the gun talking about procs and stuff if you're a new player on a low level character.

 

In addition to Containment mentioned in a previous post, the buffs and debuffs from your Secondary is your best friend. Sure, your Immob power only does 20 damage... but if the target has massive -Resist plopped on them, you'll do 30 damage. If you have a +Damage buff on yourself, that 30 might be 60. And then add Containment (which just re-casts your damage, it's not a % buff), then BAM, you're doing 120 damage! Granted, I don't think any sets have a strong -Res AND self +Dam, but you get my point.

 

All that said, while Controllers can certainly solo, they're really more of a support class. Any team will be glad to have you, so long as you keep them buffed, and foes locked down or hampered.

[Guffnat]

Ill/TA is so much fun. Even without procs the early levels feel super smooth. Entangling Arrow helps you set up containment for Spectral Wounds and Blind. Mix in Arcane Bolt from the Sorcery pool and add Confuse to the mix. Flash Arrow's -To Hit keeps you safe and it's a really smooth ride until you get access to PA and all the other fun stuff.

[oedipus_tex]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:34 AM, EmperorSteele said:

Yeah, I think some people jumped the gun talking about procs and stuff if you're a new player on a low level character.

 

 

Keep in mind you get 5 procs from the Pay to Win vendor at level 1. You should slot them more or less the same way you should "real" procs in later powers. Char with four freebie damage procs recharges fast and is actually good. Ditto with Roots. Those procs expire at level 20 but make a lot of difference prior to that.

[The_Warpact]

My buddy @Boomie used to solo GM/AV and solo TFs on his Elec/Cold.

[UltraAlt]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:38 AM, ZEdglord said:

Hi all !

 

I was wondering how does one actually get anything done solo as a Controller. I know Illusion has acceptable damage (until you get Phantom Army then it becomes hilarious), but outside of Illu, how does one even do damage ? Like, you either have buffs or debuffs, which are great ! But you can't get anything done like that can you ?

 

I'm being lazy and not reading through all the posts.

Controller's special power is Containment. When you have Containment on a target, your other primary power do additional damage.

 

I think all ranged characters that are soloing should pull and not rush in.

You can also get teleport target so you can pull one at a distance (and at a time) until the mob is a more manageable size.

 

walls have 100% resistance and defense, so you want to immobilize a bunch at once, try to be in a position so only a couple can target you once they are immobilized.

 

fall back/run as necessary.

 

Phantom Army is your damage.

 

Oh, and why aren't you teaming up?

Soloing is okay sometimes, but the glory and true power of this game is in teaming.

[EmperorSteele]

13 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Keep in mind you get 5 procs from the Pay to Win vendor at level 1. You should slot them more or less the same way you should "real" procs in later powers. Char with four freebie damage procs recharges fast and is actually good. Ditto with Roots. Those procs expire at level 20 but make a lot of difference prior to that.

 

Do those even work? Especially considering they'd be put into attacks with a recharge of like 2-4 seconds?

 

I stopped slotting the things because i never saw any bonus damage numbers pop up =/