Regen and an epic'ed out build

[Troo]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:51 AM, InvaderStych said:

Ok, admittedly off topic, but wtf are you on about? 

 

Honda isn't running an F1 team this year, and unless they're suddenly providing engines for Ferrari and at least two other teams those numbers aren't even possible. 😄 (2 drivers per team)

 

That's on me for saying "currently". I was referring to the completed season which had Max Verstappen as champion and Sergio Perez in 4th, They are currently 1st and 3rd respectively.

 

Spoiler

 

[InvaderStych]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

That's on me for saying "currently". I was referring to the completed season which had Max Verstappen as champion and Sergio Perez in 4th, They are currently 1st and 3rd respectively.

 

In fairness, I don't follow F1 as closely as I do WEC or IMSA. You guys could have told me that they had all the cars on the same engine and I would have had to look it up to know better. 😄

 

 

[Stormwalker]

On 5/1/2022 at 10:49 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Still seems like the best course of action, and one I see the regeners that dig it lean on, are the big buff powers. Eye of the Magus/Demonic, Rune of Protection, Unrelenting and the like. You know... crutches like blasters use.

 

<grin>

 

Re-reading this thread, I feel compelled to say, "This, except he forgot Shadowmeld."

 

Mostly because that was what my katana/regen used on Live to patch Regen's deficiencies.  Worked pretty well, but even with that my Katana/Regen was never as strong as my Claws/SR or my Dark/Dark or even my Kinetic Melee/WP (though, admittedly, the Katana/Regen had better DPS because Kinetic Melee).  She was strong enough to be fun, though, and that was all that mattered.

[Marshal_General]

For regen to work best, you need some sort of reliable control in you primary or pool powers. Slows, KD, stun, 7 other teammates.

[Doomguide2005]

On 6/22/2022 at 7:57 AM, Marshal_General said:

For regen to work best, you need some sort of reliable control in you primary or pool powers. Slows, KD, stun, 7 other teammates.

Nah not 7 other teammates, just 2 or 3 support away from god-like.  7 would overkill.  😜

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Nah not 7 other teammates, just 2 or 3 support away from god-like.  7 would overkill.  😜

Overkill is the best kill.

[Stormwalker]

3 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Nah not 7 other teammates, just 2 or 3 support away from god-like.  7 would overkill.  😜

 

Maxim 37:  There is no overkill, there is only "Open Fire" and "Reload".

- The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

[SomeGuy]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:57 AM, Marshal_General said:

For regen to work best, you need some sort of reliable control in you primary or pool powers. Slows, KD, stun, 7 other teammates.

 

 

I always thought for regen to work best you re-rolled to a different armor.

[arcane]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

I always thought for regen to work best you re-rolled to a different armor.

Well my position is still that Regen works as well as anything and perhaps better than some things provided you play as if you’re not completely allergic to occasionally using small inspirations. AND I can’t say I think I’d want to play Scrapper Electric or Fire Armor without inspirations any more than Regeneration.

The set’s biggest problem is it scares away hardcore arbitrary-rule-setting power players that have dozens of /bio characters, and I’m generally ok with that. 🙂 

 

Anti-inspers are so weird.

Edited June 24, 2022 by arcane

[SomeGuy]

13 hours ago, arcane said:

Well my position is still that Regen works as well as anything and perhaps better than some things provided you play as if you’re not completely allergic to occasionally using small inspirations. AND I can’t say I think I’d want to play Scrapper Electric or Fire Armor without inspirations any more than Regeneration.

The set’s biggest problem is it scares away hardcore arbitrary-rule-setting power players that have dozens of /bio characters, and I’m generally ok with that. 🙂 

 

Anti-inspers are so weird.

 

 

My first 50 was claws/regen. I experienced IH before and after the nerf. I learned how to play the game with claws/regen. Listening to Inv tankers talk about how OP IH was was incredible irony considering I couldn't herd entire zones at 32 with IH, but absolutely could with Inv. Also, stacking bug...Build Up, Freezing Touch, crash the server. I remember completely kitting the claws/regen out, then trying DB/SR on a suggestion, and having my mind blown at the difference. It was just dumb to me how minimal the investment (maybe just a steadfast and some crushing impacts?) was for the exponential return I got in comparison. I did literally try to make the set work all the way until shutdown. Heck, I remember doing a UG on the claws/regen when the news broke. Regen broke my heart.

 

I don't get anti-inspers. It's a tool the game provides then I am going to use them. Base temps and day job temps? Same thing. Only time I don't purposely use them is when I'm measuring things (like pylon runs). But hey, if it detracts from someone's enjoyment, then be my guest and don't. Not like this game is hard and you NEED them.

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

I don't get anti-inspers. It's a tool the game provides then I am going to use them. 

 

Some people do not like relying on things which will not always be there or going out of their way to stock up on them so they will be there just like some people prefer "real gas" as opposed to gasoline with ethanol. Its a choice and playstyle.

[Troo]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:55 AM, SomeGuy said:

 

 

I always thought for regen to work best you re-rolled to a different armor.

 

Ha, funny. That is a good one.

 

For the record: Regen pluses outweigh it's minuses IF a player is willing to alter playstyle a bit.

 

 

[SomeGuy]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Some people do not like relying on things which will not always be there or going out of their way to stock up on them so they will be there just like some people prefer "real gas" as opposed to gasoline with ethanol. Its a choice and playstyle.

 

 

That's actually a type of logic I'd use to not use them (they aren't always there). I just know I WILL use them if I got them. I just don't build to need them.

[Erratic1]

34 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

That's actually a type of logic I'd use to not use them (they aren't always there). I just know I WILL use them if I got them. I just don't build to need them.

 

Same here.

[Bill Z Bubba]

What the pro-insp/pro-temp crowd misses is that what you're using to bring regen up to tolerable can also be used by everyone else. The performance difference stays the same. Regen stays dead last. Regen continues being the set where you get to spend vastly more time clicking insps/temps/Rune and its ilk while the rest of us spend those clicks killing things.

 

I can use the regen mindset while playing a blaster, too. Doesn't mean regen is worth a shit.

[Zepp]

Regen has one of the best T9s, It allows for a different playstyle. It is a good way to learn about layering protections.

It has its issues. One major issue is that the clicky playstyle requires more recharge than other armor builds and also causes a loss of DPS in high end content. It should definitely be given a once-over, but I don't agree with those that call it terrible.

[Stormwalker]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What the pro-insp/pro-temp crowd misses is that what you're using to bring regen up to tolerable can also be used by everyone else. The performance difference stays the same. Regen stays dead last. Regen continues being the set where you get to spend vastly more time clicking insps/temps/Rune and its ilk while the rest of us spend those clicks killing things.

 

I can use the regen mindset while playing a blaster, too. Doesn't mean regen is worth a shit.

 

Seriously, I keep seeing people saying that all it takes is a few inspirations to make Regen as good as the other sets.  Except, what stop sthe guy plying one of the other sets from using inspirations?  Someone keeps talking about how /SR is prone to damage spikes due to bad streaks?  A couple of greens solves that problem nicely, on the rare occasion that it pops up.  In the meantime, while the regenner is clicking Reconstruction, and Dull Pain, and Instant Healing, and MoG, and whatever temp or pool clicks they are using to mitigate Regen's flaws (i.e. Shadow Meld, Rune of Protection, etc.) the /SR is clicking more attacks and dealing more damage output, thinning out the enemy spawn faster (thus reducing incoming damage faster), and ultimately clearing the map faster.  And doing all of this with a build that allows more flexibility in power selection and costs less inf to make work.

 

This is why Regen needs help.  It doesn't adequately reward the amount of effort and investment that has to be put into making it perform.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

There's still, and always will be, two arguments at play:

 

1: Regen numerically underperforms and should be buffed

2: Regen requires more work and is thus more satisfying to play

 

Both of those statements are completely acceptable but they lead to a fight. Those that want regen to suck less numerically are and must be in direct opposition with those that want to leave regen challenging and active.

 

It's a ridiculous situation to be in as a developer. If you make regen better, it becomes easier, thus ticking off crowd #2. If you leave it as is, crowd #1 stays annoyed.

[Gobbledygook]

I'm hoping it's one of the things they're looking at. I mean, this issue is called second chances, after all.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Gobbledygook
There, their, they're.

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

There's still, and always will be, two arguments at play:

 

1: Regen numerically underperforms and should be buffed

2: Regen requires more work and is thus more satisfying to play

 

Both of those statements are completely acceptable but they lead to a fight. Those that want regen to suck less numerically are and must be in direct opposition with those that want to leave regen challenging and active.

 

It's a ridiculous situation to be in as a developer. If you make regen better, it becomes easier, thus ticking off crowd #2. If you leave it as is, crowd #1 stays annoyed.

 

It's definitely tricky, but I think it is possible to improve the set's numeric performance some while keeping it challenging to play  Personally, I think Regen should stay challenging to play, but it needs to offer more reward for that challenge.  Maybe it should provide some kind of offensive advantage to offset the lost DPS from all those clicks.  It could be fluffed as the regenner being so accustomed to fighting through pain that it doesn't faze him and he just fights even harder.

[Zepp]

Adding a slight build-up to heals and a larger build-up to MoG would definitely help out.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Seriously, I keep seeing people saying that all it takes is a few inspirations to make Regen as good as the other sets. 

 

With no inspirations I can play much of the game's content at very high level. Would some reasonable debuff protection help, sure.

 

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

In the meantime, while the regenner is clicking Reconstruction, and Dull Pain, and Instant Healing, and MoG,

 

If someone needs to be spamming Dull Pain to survive, chances are they are in over their head or doing it wrong. (The +HP lasts 2 minutes)

MoG is meant to be used liberally, it has no crash.

 

So tired of regurgitated misinformation being spewed. Only Reconstruction is up somewhat often. The others are more like once every 2-4 minutes.

 

On a build for previous testing:

• Instant Healing is up every 3:54
• Moment of Glory is up every 1:56
• Dull Pain is up every 1:53
• Reconstruction is at 0:22 (Siphon Life <6s, Dark Regen <15s, etc)

Pylons fall quicker than 2 minutes. It is a reactive set for sure and it may have more clicks than some other sets. But there is no need to exaggerate.

This doesn't mean it is easy. Having some situational awareness helps.

Example: Knowing when it might be a bad idea to use a 3.5 second activation power that might block the use of something else.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's a ridiculous situation to be in as a developer. If you make regen better, it becomes easier, thus ticking off crowd #2. If you leave it as is, crowd #1 stays annoyed.

 

and if you put it on a Tanker it is overpowered..

[Stormwalker]

  

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

With no inspirations I can play much of the game's content at very high level. Would some reasonable debuff protection help, sure.

 

 

And this is the first thing I would add to Regen if it was up to me.  And then before I changed anything else I'd want to see how much difference it made.  Though I expect a little bit more tweaking would still be needed.

 

As I have said before, I've played Regen.  Quite a lot, my first 50 on Live was a Katana/Regen.  I know what the set is capable of.  I'm not claiming it's vastly below the other sets in terms of its maximum potential, but it is below them, and makes you work harder to get to that maximum potential than any other set.  That's not a good combination.  The set that takes the most effort to succeed shouldn't reward that effort with the least performance.

 

But you still DO have to make regular use of Reconstruction, and while you might only click each of those other powers once per fight, that's still several clicks you have to make that other sets don't.  Especially when you start adding in things like Shadow Meld which also require a click and has an activation time.

 

Energy Aura, by comparison, has two clicks (Energize and Energy Drain) that I use reasonably often (and that's being generous, I really don't really use Energy Drain much unless I am fighting things that have -recovery or end drain attacks), but Energy Aura also provides an offensive advantage (in the form of Entropic Aura's +rech) that offsets the lost damage output from those clicks.  Regen, which in my experience is definitely more clicky than Energy Aura, does not provide anything of the sort.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Troo]

55 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

I'm not claiming it's vastly below the other sets in terms of its maximum potential, but it is below them, and makes you work harder to get to that maximum potential than any other set.

 

Without going into a long debate

 

SR has great defense

Regen can have that same defense (until debuffed) plus it's regeneration. SR can't ever have the same regeneration.

Elec has great resistance.

Regen can have nearly that same resistance plus it's regeneration. Elec can't ever have quite the same regeneration.

**This is baseline to some people's position which can put Regen possibly having a higher upside than some other sets. (not necessarily the ones listed)

 

I don't completely agree with that because I don't like using inspirations on the regular.

Instead I pair Regeneration with a bunch of resistance from powers, set bonuses, etc and simply accept that I am gonna get hit. This feels very sturdy and a good base to operate from. I'm at full health at the end of most fights.

• Now if I get hit with debuffs I need to know how to  counter them.
• If incoming damage is coming in fast than regen heals at a sustained pace that is devouring the health bar, I need to know how to counter that as well.
• Sometimes the counter is a power, sometimes a tactic.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Troo