Devs, Super Reflexes in need of an update....

[SwitchFade]

Been watching and giggling a bit.

 

SR is, on all AT, among the top mitigation sets. My SR scrap sits at 60% m/r/a, 51% s/l before scaling, no end issues, shrugs off def and slow debuffs and facetanks everything.

 

If you don't think SR is that potent, let's give player version of SR to MOBs and see how well that goes. Let's let AVs have it, GMs have it, Malta have it, carnies have it...

 

Guaranteed mass eRage within days.

[Vanden]

I don't think Super Reflexes is weak, but I do think it's no fun to play. No end management, no heal, mez protection that's always interrupting you in a fight to reapply it, and you don't get all your core skills until extremely late levels. You do get one fun power in Quickness, and a lot of spots to put LotG +Recharges, but those end up exacerbating the lack of end management until you can get a handle on your build in probably the 30s or so.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Vanden

[BZRKR]

I like Elude for what it currently is: an easily skippable power.

 

While it's good to look at things and see if there are improvements to be made, I think Super Reflexes isn't in need of much. Maybe add the choice to take a Master Brawler (The absorb shield mez protection that Sentinels can choose) on other AT's, maybe look into power order. But honestly, I think there are better things for the Devs to spend their time on.

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:01 PM, Blackjoy said:

 

SR isn't even in the galaxy of indestructible.  You seems to be confusing a build with Tough, Weave, and 100+ million in set IOs with SR.   Go start an SR at level 1 and tell me how comparatively indestructible the set its?

     I've played /SR to 50 probably a dozen times if not more since i3, once here on HC before the computer died, Covid-19 hit and I had a son all of which has kept me out of game for a bit now.  My overall Main with over 3000 hours on Live was Claws/SR.  She started in i3 and she went 4 or 5 issues at 50th with not an IO in sight much less a set bonus or Incarnate Abilities.  I learned how to not only survive Elude's crash but to fight right on through it when necessary.  Pretty much any build, SR or otherwise, I make is highly self reliant for funds and IOs especially set IO.  That wasn't quite as true here on HC but still held largely true of any set or pairing new to me.  While some armor sets, in particular Regen, are easier through lower levels I've never found /SR particularly troublesome for endurance usage and that is doubly true if you are comparing it to the difficulties of leveling most other armors.  You try Dark Armor without pools or IOs.  Now that's rough on both your end bar and your ass (no kb/kd prot, woot).  Suffice to say i personally think I'm fairly familiar and competent with leveling SR. 

On 5/28/2022 at 9:01 PM, Blackjoy said:

"Edit:  what makes other armor sets cry (nevermind everyone else) isn't truly our defense it's our DDR which isn't even mentioned."  It is mentioned.  I speicfically state that SR has its moments, but there are only a handful of mobs that have Defense Debuff.  And even with DDR, you can STILL have cascade failure of +DEF...which is not true for +RES.

Wow!  You've seen cascade defense failure on an SR character.  What the hell were you fighting that tossed -100% or greater debuffs your way (or just several really long lasting debuffs)?  So sure it's mathematically possible.  But no I've never encountered a cascade defense failure on a mature SR build (post ~ lvl40).   You'd have to outright skip some of your SR powers to drop your DDR well off of 95%.   That goes right back to rest of the statement you left off while quoting me about building well outside the norm while expecting results outside the norm. 

On 5/28/2022 at 9:01 PM, Blackjoy said:

   The bottom line is I don't kneed to convince anyone posting here, nor am i trying to.  Everything being said here now was said back on Live, and the when the devs finally ran the stats, they couldn't deny the truth.     I just need the current developers to run the stats.    Check and see if the set underperforms comparatively.  

 

No, of course you don't need to convince me or other posters here but you might want to reexamine your thoughts when you get as much negative feedback as has occurred here.  Maybe you're right but some numbers might not only help reduce the negative feedback but convince someone who can get changes done that you might have a point and actually look into it.  It might also save them time as they won't be spending a precious resource (their volunteer time) duplicating your work.

[Blackjoy]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 You try Dark Armor without pools or IOs.

The fact that some of the other classic sets have problems doesn't negate the fact that SR has issues.   Do other sets need updating in the face of BIo, WP, Shield, etc?  Probably.  But I haven't played all the other sets to know their problems intimately.  If you want to argue for updates to DA, be my guest, I wont' be on here telling you otherwise. 

 

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Wow!  You've seen cascade defense failure on an SR character. 

Without actually reviewing the logs, I am not 100% certain what my +DEF was when the four Cimorian boses hit me into paste in about 10 seconds.  But either I was hit with a million to 1 streak, or I was getting debuffed.  An no, I don't skip any SR powers.   Nor am I claiming that DDR failing is an issue.  My point is SFW about DDR?  It's not like every single mob you face has defense debuff.  My Regen and Bio get along fine in the face of not having DDR.   I see plenty of scrapers have no issues on 4x8 ITF.  DDR is being over sold.  I don't see Energy Armor, Radiation Armor, Electric Armor scrappers and brutes crying for lack of DDR.

 

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Maybe you're right but some numbers might not only help reduce the negative feedback but convince someone who can get changes done that you might have a point and actually look into it.  It might also save them time as they won't be spending a precious resource (their volunteer time) duplicating your work.

 

1.  I don't have access the population numbers from the servers. Nobody in this thread does.  So what's true across the player base is not something any of us can prove.   The only thing I can do is tell the devs to look here.

2.  Many posters have already corroborated my concerns.   The fact that people agree that SR below 35 is problematic is a red flag.   Sorry, I don't believe simply adding Evasion fixes all of SR's issues.  

3.  The fact that there is vocal opposition to fixing Elude because people want to keep skipping it, is a red flag.

 

What clearly happens is that as you get higher in levels, all the scrappers start to converge.  Everyone has multiple layers of mitigation from pool powers,  procs, and Incarnates.  Out of maybe 40 scrappers, I've seen one that didn't have Tough.  Given that fact,  I suspect all the scrappers are performing about the same statistically as you approach 50.   That doesn't mean SR doesn't have problems, it suggests that there's so much off-AT mitigation that the build choice is less meaningful.   Yes, I routinely check to see what types of scrappers or brutes I'm running with and other than Shield, no set stands out barring specific mobs like Sappers or Carnies.  It's also hard to normalize the data given Incarnate and Teaming bonus on an anecdotal level.   You can probably run a 4x8 ITF naked with the right team.  

 

I'm asking the devs to normalize the data and see how SR does comparatively, from 1-50, not just lvl 50.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Aracknight]

I believe in SR.  

 

I have tried other armor powers, and found them all to be inherently lacking in one or more ways.  Possibly I didn't play them long enough to learn them the way I learned SR, and I can own that.

 

But SR is the only one that I flat out believe in.

 

Arcanaville was part of a great mitigation thread on the scrapper boards during live that opened my eyes on how to layer things to achieve, effectively, immortality.

 

I don't use Tough, except as a mule for three uniques.  I don't have Weave.  I even use Musculature for my alpha slot.

 

I cruise at 45.8% to all three positions, with nothing but my SR toggles running, costing me a cool .53 end per second.  58 and change % on my Tanker version.  Same story.

 

Some choose to layer in +Resistance in their builds.  I chose to go with +HP (to leverage my SR passives) and +Regen and + Recovery with my set bonuses.  And something has to go very, very, very wrong in order for me to eat floor.

 

Oh, and SR has an endurance management power.  It's called Elude.  If you built it right, you can still rock 23-25% DEF even with your toggles off during the crash.  Eat some purple and blue skittles and fight the $%#$% on.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aracknight

[Doomguide2005]

     I was responding to the comparative bit.  But I'll grant you comparative is a rather subjective thing.  For me i haven't found SR any more difficult to level than most other armors perhaps even easier.  I find most of the endurance and AoE issues fairly trivial and easy to deal with.  *shrug*  Ultimately that's subjective thing as I've no data one way or the other.  I just know that other sets with a QR like power are a bit easier endurance-wise. 

 

     I'm quite sure that yes you got debuffed.  I'm equally sure that it wasn't a cascade failure just plain bad luck.  While you would have been marginally easier to hit going from 45 to ~42 it's still mostly bad luck for the next blow when compared to Willpower or Bio who'll go from 45 to near zero or negative numbers with the same 4 blows.  That is a significant change in the final hit chance of the foes.

[Frozen Burn]

SR is perfectly fine the way it is.  In fact, it's darn great!  A +heal or +end power is NOT needed and would only make the set a cookie-cutter clone of others.  Defense can built high enough that you are rarely, if ever, touched and even if so, inspires and the resistances you get from sets and other means make it so it's not very painful.  Sets also make it so you can easily manage your endurance consumption - so there really is no issue there either.  If you still have end issues, then relook at your build.  

 

Elude is the only power out of the set that is useless.  There is no need for it.  You can get your defense high enough without it and again, end use is easily managed with sets.  I've seen some people doing the old-school perma-elude builds and and they have to stop and rest every few mins while the remainder of the team (including my untouched SR toons without Elude) move on without them.  

[Aracknight]

Upon further review, I have decided that "Fix SR" is the new "Nerf Regen."

 

It's said almost as often, by the exact sort of people who don't understand the powerset they are writing about, and soon will be taken as the same level of inside forum joke the latter has become.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aracknight

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

SR is perfectly fine the way it is.  In fact, it's darn great!  A +heal or +end power is NOT needed and would only make the set a cookie-cutter clone of others.  Defense can built high enough that you are rarely, if ever, touched and even if so, inspires and the resistances you get from sets and other means make it so it's not very painful.  Sets also make it so you can easily manage your endurance consumption - so there really is no issue there either.  If you still have end issues, then relook at your build.  

 

Elude is the only power out of the set that is useless.  There is no need for it.  You can get your defense high enough without it and again, end use is easily managed with sets.  I've seen some people doing the old-school perma-elude builds and and they have to stop and rest every few mins while the remainder of the team (including my untouched SR toons without Elude) move on without them.  

 

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

The fact that some of the other classic sets have problems doesn't negate the fact that SR has issues.   Do other sets need updating in the face of BIo, WP, Shield, etc?  Probably.  But I haven't played all the other sets to know their problems intimately.  If you want to argue for updates to DA, be my guest, I wont' be on here telling you otherwise. 

The OP isn't factoring sets into the call for SR to be fixed. The OP isn't even allowing for pool powers in the claim SR needs to be fixed. In fact, the author said that the fact other armor sets also need pool powers and set bonuses to be effective is just proof that they are also broken but should be addressed in another thread.

 

This thread is a dead argument because the OP insists that without pool powers or set bonuses SR is excessively weak. Just like every other armor set in the game. So basically, the OP wants all the armors "fixed" so they give full protection without set bonuses or pool powers. So let's just consider this thread irrelevant and dead.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

Without actually reviewing the logs, I am not 100% certain what my +DEF was when the four Cimorian boses hit me into paste in about 10 seconds.

 

Then you should review the logs. They'll show you what to fix. Cuz if you're dyin to 4 +4 bosses, your build ain't right. Or you've created a build that should specifically run at a lower diff as we do with squishy characters.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Aracknight]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Then you should review the logs. They'll show you what to fix. Cuz if you're dyin to 4 +4 bosses, you're build ain't right. Or you've created a build that should specifically run at a lower diff as we do with squishy characters.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aracknight

[ChocolateMercenary]

I have an answer. Replace Elude with Strength of Will. Re-title SoW: "Close Calls", "Near Misses", or "Narrow Escapes". Spout some nonsense about how you dodge so well that you reduce damage from actual hits.

[Aracknight]

10 minutes ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

I have an answer. Replace Elude with Strength of Will. Re-title SoW: "Close Calls", "Near Misses", or "Narrow Escapes". Spout some nonsense about how you dodge so well that you reduce damage from actual hits.

Or replace it with a version of Master Brawler that doesn't preclude Practiced Brawler.  Toggle mez protection and an absorb shield, with the PB breakfree action?   Yeah, that oughta do it.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Aracknight

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Or replace it with a version of Master Brawler that doesn't preclude Practiced Brawler.  Toggle mez protection and an absorb shield?   Yeah, that oughta do it.

 

I'm positive that you know as well as I do how OP that would be.

[Aracknight]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm positive that you know as well as I do how OP that would be.

How else are we gonna Fix SR?

[Rudra]

I thought, or at least hoped, you were being facetious. Glad to see you were. 😄

[Blackjoy]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 But I'll grant you comparative is a rather subjective thing. 

It is for posters, it's not for the servers.  They can run stats and see how sets compare.   Alternatively, they can run simulations where they set up specific builds and see how they do comparatively.    That's how you determine if a set under performs.   You can run the sets with just their powers and see how they do.  Then you start adding in pool powers to see if the benefits asymmetrically benefit some sets more than others. 

 

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For me i haven't found SR any more difficult to level than most other armors perhaps even easier. 

 

I would bet my digital life that SR is far behind a set like Regen or Willpower when it comes to leveling speed.   I recall that in my 20's as a WP, I could take on 4 oranges and come out with full health and endurance.  That wasn't even remotely true for SR or Shield.  Grantded, WP has leveled off a bit, but I'm just winging the build.  

 

I'm leveling up a SM/Regen, since two days ago, and it it is joke how much comparative uptime Regen has.   Did a Freakshow +3x8 at lvl 26 and I was the only non-50 who never had to take a knee on account of endurance.    I think people's concepts of how good SR is pretty skewed by their experience at 50 when they've solved all their endo issues.   By 50, I've yet to see any scrapper run out of endurance sans Sapper or some other effect. And yes, I've been hit by some Carnie effect that totally killed my endo, even at lvl 50.

 

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 Ultimately that's subjective thing as I've no data one way or the other.  I just know that other sets with a QR like power are a bit easier endurance-wise. 

 

The devs can produce that data.  And that's right, some form of +endo would be huge for SR and an Elude that doesn't crash you out to zero.

 

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 While you would have been marginally easier to hit going from 45 to ~42 it's still mostly bad luck for the next blow when compared to Willpower or Bio who'll go from 45 to near zero or negative numbers with the same 4 blows.  That is a significant change in the final hit chance of the foes.

Funny you should talk about 45->42.  Remember that SR brute that died in 15 seconds?  It happened when I asked her to turn off Maneuvers.   She kept Weave and Tough.  But turning off her 5% defense from Maneuvers had her go from completing the encounter at full health to dead in 15 seconds.   We ran it a bunch.  5% was the difference between success and face plant.  Scaling resists,  Tough, proc'ing 180 hit points a cycle?  Irrelevant.   A slight loss of defense got her killed even though she was at cap with the rest.   A ran that same thing with a Shield Brute and he did waaaaay better than she did when she dropped Maneuvers. 

 

Willpower and BIo have several other forms of mitigation when their defense fails.  SR only has one.  No debuff aura, no +HP, no +heal, etc.

 

Run the numbers devs.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Blackjoy

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:

I would bet my digital life that SR is far behind a set like Regen or Willpower when it comes to leveling speed.

how am I supposed to take you up on this bet?

[Doomguide2005]

Okay so let's say you are right.

 And let's say they don't say bye-bye to IOs, IO sets and Incarnates. 

Now my SR scrapper from Live is rebuilt, tweaked to account for some new IOs.  Mind you I'm having a difficult time remembering the last time she died in normal play or even a lot of stoopid scrapper tricks since her last respec several issues a go.  I've yet to run later versions of 801 or an ASF so I'm pretty sure she can die but ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aethereal]

8 hours ago, Vanden said:

No end management, no heal, mez protection that's always interrupting you in a fight to reapply it

 

I promise you that you do not need to put practiced brawler on auto or cast it on cooldown.  Just train yourself to tap it while you're moving between mobs.  If you do end up with a small period of vulnerability to mez, then, well, first, about 90-95% of mezzes are going to miss you, and if one does hit, you can cast practiced brawler through a mez.

[Rudra]

So you can basically just ignore Practiced Brawler until needed, right?

[aethereal]

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you can basically just ignore Practiced Brawler until needed, right?

It's ideal to not use it purely reactively, because then you do spend some time mezzed and thus more vulnerable to damage, etc.

 

If you're using anything like a normal build, you'll have practiced brawler way more than perma just though your global recharge, and you can easily reapply it between fights such that it's very unlikely that you'll ever have a gap in your protection.  If you do end up with a small gap, it's not the end of the world, though.

 

People get freaked out that it's not a toggle and put it on auto, but that ends up applying it way too often for most play -- then they get irritated that it's messing up their dps.

Edited June 1, 2022 by aethereal

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

People get freaked out that it's not a toggle and put it on auto, but that ends up applying it way too often for most play -- then they get irritated that it's messing up their dps.

 

And this is why I have hasten on auto. It tells me when it's time to click PB.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

It is for posters, it's not for the servers.  They can run stats and see how sets compare.   Alternatively, they can run simulations where they set up specific builds and see how they do comparatively.    That's how you determine if a set under performs.   You can run the sets with just their powers and see how they do.  Then you start adding in pool powers to see if the benefits asymmetrically benefit some sets more than others. 

 

 

I would bet my digital life that SR is far behind a set like Regen or Willpower when it comes to leveling speed.   I recall that in my 20's as a WP, I could take on 4 oranges and come out with full health and endurance.  That wasn't even remotely true for SR or Shield.  Grantded, WP has leveled off a bit, but I'm just winging the build.  

 

I'm leveling up a SM/Regen, since two days ago, and it it is joke how much comparative uptime Regen has.   Did a Freakshow +3x8 at lvl 26 and I was the only non-50 who never had to take a knee on account of endurance.    I think people's concepts of how good SR is pretty skewed by their experience at 50 when they've solved all their endo issues.   By 50, I've yet to see any scrapper run out of endurance sans Sapper or some other effect. And yes, I've been hit by some Carnie effect that totally killed my endo, even at lvl 50.

 

 

The devs can produce that data.  And that's right, some form of +endo would be huge for SR and an Elude that doesn't crash you out to zero.

 

Funny you should talk about 45->42.  Remember that SR brute that died in 15 seconds?  It happened when I asked her to turn off Maneuvers.   She kept Weave and Tough.  But turning off her 5% defense from Maneuvers had her go from completing the encounter at full health to dead in 15 seconds.   We ran it a bunch.  5% was the difference between success and face plant.  Scaling resists,  Tough, proc'ing 180 hit points a cycle?  Irrelevant.   A slight loss of defense got her killed even though she was at cap with the rest.   A ran that same thing with a Shield Brute and he did waaaaay better than she did when she dropped Maneuvers. 

 

Willpower and BIo have several other forms of mitigation when their defense fails.  SR only has one.  No debuff aura, no +HP, no +heal, etc.

 

Run the numbers devs.

 

Bruh if you need help on your SR build  just ask