issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Not saying it would happen. But if AE tickets gave you Incarnate Mats would that work for you?

 

Combine that with the ability to send unused incarnate salvage pieces from one character to another on the same account and that would definitely help... It's always irked me that the characters I sent through the DA-on-repeat grind all ended up with piles of spare common and uncommon iBits they'd never use, while the next alt I made could have made good use of the things. It's always seemed silly to me that we can ship emps, but not salvage.

 

I wouldn't be for the ability to transfer them to other players... but to our own alts? Absolutely. 

[skoryy]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Combine that with the ability to send unused incarnate salvage pieces from one character to another on the same account and that would definitely help... It's always irked me that the characters I sent through the DA-on-repeat grind all ended up with piles of spare common and uncommon iBits they'd never use, while the next alt I made could have made good use of the things. It's always seemed silly to me that we can ship emps, but not salvage.

 

I wouldn't be for the ability to transfer them to other players... but to our own alts? Absolutely. 

 

I need a 'thoughtful' emjoi, because finding uses for excess incarnate salvage does seem like a good idea.  Ability to exchange them for empyreans, perhaps?

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, skoryy said:

 

I need a 'thoughtful' emjoi, because finding uses for excess incarnate salvage does seem like a good idea.  Ability to exchange them for empyreans, perhaps?

 

That's been suggested a few times. 

[kelika2]

I am finding that bossless council PI radio missions are the next best thing.  s/l/e builds are cheaper to make.  for now at least.  we adapted before, we will adapt again.  every time the old devs messed with something players just moved on to the next best thing.  I am just going to assume that they made AE and just stopped messing with players exp and let them be.

 

If folks are not interested in new content, they never will be.  I am sorry that the new vahzilok missions and such were coded, written and tested but not played but the most prime example I can think of is City of Heroes vs City of Villains.  For all the shit it gets, a Synapes TF will fill up faster than any villain SF simply because its on heroside, familiar and easy.  People would rather do radio missions over actually talking to a radio.

 

And in a world of primarily speed only task forces (exp/drops issue) with a non-functioning LFG tool (people who dont want to lead) on top of a terrible Earned Merit:Merit Cost ratio at the vendor this change is just a kick in the pants to casual players.

 

With the word casual now in use, I think the Vet system was designed for casual players to get incarnates and adding another layer of tediousness on top of that is just a step in the wrong direction

[JIMMYDEENS]

Another thing I would like to add to my previous post, I'm not trying to guess the "developers' motives" but to me it seems pretty obvious you want the player base to lean off AE and switch to base game content. This is not the way to go about doing it, have Task Forces reward accolades that grant bonuses to your toon or maybe costume parts, ect...

[Excraft]

On 7/14/2022 at 10:57 AM, blue4333 said:

This change feels like it only serves to alienate people who just enjoy AE farming and force them to leave - in my opinion, there is no benefit in this to people who play TFs/Story Arcs.  It just feels punitive to people who enjoy AE Farming in a game that people play for general enjoyment and nostalgia.

 

I just don't think they care about alienating anyone who doesn't "play the right way" as they define it.  They just don't give a shit and the only people they seem to listen to are the 3 or 4 people constantly crying and whining about farming on the forums.  They keep chasing these mythical new players who don't exist in mass numbers, never will exist in mass numbers for an 18 year old game with out of date technology running on a pirate server.  They keep making the same mistakes Paragon Studios made over and over again hoping for a different outcome.

 

Of course they can do whatever they want and there's nothing that's going to change their decisions on this point.  Best thing anyone can do is just accept their changes and adapt or leave and go play something else.  I have a suspicion this is just the first of many more nerfs coming to the AE content and it's pretty clear at least to me what effect those will have.  All anyone needs to do is look at all the other "traditional" servers out there being barren ghost towns. 

 

On 7/14/2022 at 11:03 AM, Shadeknight said:

Otherwise: Unai, Harvey, and Maria all have farmable maps so long as you don't complete them.

 

What's the difference between farming those missions and farming in AE?  People are outside the AE building?

[Excraft]

9 hours ago, MadCow99 said:

I think this is a brilliant solution. 

1) The way those zones work, you have to be in range to get XP, so doorsitters will at least have to stay close to the farmer.

2) Hazard and trial zones are grossly under utilized. 

 

So when you enter a hazard/trial zone, let it exemp you down to an appropriate level and give 200 or even 300% of normal xp.  Sort of a reverse of how debt works.  Suddenly sweeping Perez Park and Boomtown becomes not just "worth it" but also one of the better PL strategies.

 

Sure this works great so long as the zone isn't crowded and you can actually get some kills in.

[TrelNargil]

10 hours ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

I just wanna say that I appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into playing around, testing, and typing all of this out. That's all!

 

   Thank you very much for the complement @TomatoPhalanges. Generally, when I test something out and/or do something, I tend to give 100%, though sometimes my comments and "reports" on such can be a bit... over long (again, sorry about that folks).

 

   In either case, after reading more here, it is great to see some more very good ideas spring up instead of just a lot of negative comments (valid as they may be or not). Being able to transfer salvage between alts on the same account is also a great suggestion, as it would again certainly help deal with two more issue people have with it; dealing with salvage a particular toon no longer needs, and supporting the building needs of other alts. As Homecoming has prided itself in a very big way on QOL benefits here (and thanks again for that too Dev's 🙂), this would be a most excellent one to introduce into the game me thinks.

   However, as much as it would be, I am not to sure if it would be done or not. After all, such things that we have been begging for in the past for a LONG time, such as Pet Customization and the beautiful Kalisti Wharf actually being put to USE (as examples only) have yet to be done at all. I know that at least for me, whenever I have gone too the Wharf, I just stare at the oh so great zone, and become sad that such a great place has never been used at all... such a waste. 😞 But any new content is always a blessing in the end (so long as it is balanced, works great, and isn't a nerf that will upset & affect the players in a very negative way), and I again appreciate and am thankful we have Dev's that care enough about us and the game to improve on it and our enjoyment.

   But as I mentioned in my overlong book report above (lol), communication IS key here, as always, so I will be waiting patiently to see what the Dev's say in these Diaries (and why call it that btw? Wouldn't calling it a direct explanation post be better? lol) before making any more judgements on the matter (maybe not comments though lol). Just don't force me to write another book report Dev's, because if your Diaries are not up to snuff, believe me... I will. And NO one wants me to do that lolol. 😄 Heck, I already got a ton of questions written down in notes that I will post if I have too lol, so yeah here's hoping. And to everyone here, keep the great suggestions coming! Because remember, the Dev's may be blessing us with this great game of ours here, but YOU matter too, as do your ideas and thoughts. So rock on! 🙂

 

Peace...

[El D]

I'm curious as to what other solutions people would accept. 'Leave AE alone' is likely a nonstarter, as the devs seem determined to deal with this problem of 'AE grants far too much reward for too little effort' somehow. 

 

Definitely agree that other content (task forces/story arcs/hazard zones/etc.) could use a modified reward scale to prompt more activity, but just buffing other content doesn't resolve the issue of AE still being the best/fastest. Adding any gates to accessing AE, such as a required tutorial/certain amount of time invested for new characters, would likely take more effort than it's worth - in-addition to probably being liked even less than this change.

 

@Marbing's post about utilizing Tickets to earn Incarnate Materials seems the most interesting thus far. Even without Vet Level progression it'd still allow for AE content to fully progress Incarnate abilities (removing the complaint most folks have had in this thread) but do so at a much more controllable rate vs player investment/time spent playing (which theoretically absolves part of the on-going problem). It'd give AE Tickets more of a purpose too and serve to limit the overwhelming benefits that can be gained from AE. Players would need to choose if they want to farm Tickets or Standard Rewards, without the possibility of getting everything all at once while progressing also Incarnate powers - that'd be the benefit of running actual end game content (Dark Astoria, iTrials, the new Cimerora stuff, etc.).

Edited July 15, 2022 by El D

[Perma-Newbie]

46 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Sure this works great so long as the zone isn't crowded and you can actually get some kills in.

If we reach the usage where every hazard zone is being swept clean by farmers, adjusting the respawn rates in those zones is trivial (I think, City of Heroes spaghetti code may or may not being trivial for various reasons).

[DarknessEternal]

57 minutes ago, El D said:

I'm curious as to what other solutions people would accept. 'Leave AE alone' is likely a nonstarter, as the devs seem determined to deal with this problem of 'AE grants far too much reward for too little effort' somehow.

Improve rewards elsewhere.

 

Removing rewards from what someone already enjoys is what makes people leave games.  It's what made me leave CoH the first time.

[Troo]

58 minutes ago, El D said:

@Marbing's post about utilizing Tickets to earn Incarnate Materials seems the most interesting thus far.

 

AE Tickets for Incarnate Shards, I have no problem with that.

[Excraft]

42 minutes ago, MadCow99 said:

If we reach the usage where every hazard zone is being swept clean by farmers, adjusting the respawn rates in those zones is trivial (I think, City of Heroes spaghetti code may or may not being trivial for various reasons).

 

That's just going to create more lag.

[Abraxus]

I completely agree that if you want to change how people play, you don't penalize what they do, in order to drive them to something else.  You incentivize an aspect of the game that they would find an acceptable trade-off, so they want to go there.  There were plenty of options available in that arena.  I think they need to be explored.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Abraxus

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 7/13/2022 at 2:09 AM, America's Angel said:

 

I don't especially hate/love the AE changes. The reason for my post was just to reassure players that they can still use fire farms in AE to farm influence, powerlevel from 1-50, and unlock incarnate slots. (Only thing that's been removed is vet levels.)

 

 

I haven't read all ten pages of this thread, and frankly this change won't affect me a bit, but AA's comment is dead on.  AE Farming hasn't been removed -- only one specific aspect of it has.  If you like farming, keep farming!  You'll get lots of goodies still.  Play how you want to play!

 

I know the devs said this isn't a thread for speculating on motives, and I'm looking forward to reading their digest when it comes out.  I suspect that it has a lot to do with AFK farming (which they have stated was something they were against).  Emp merits (normally gained with vet play) convert to reward merits and (I think) can produce inf very quickly when compared to inf generation through defeats and selling drops.  But I'm no expert.

[luficia]

Seeing the notes, I'm going to say this; I am 100% thrilled with the change.  There is something that people haven't considered and I run this content with ITFs and TinPex and Apex runs. 

 

There is an uncomfortable amount of people who do nothing but AE farming to the point that they don't know the content. They don't know how to play, much less what else they need to do. There has been more then one occasion where I am trying to lead people in the ITF where people are purposely sitting as if expecting a free grind or they don't know what to do at all. 

 

The core part of farming remains the same; you can still grind for exp from 1 through 50. You can get exp to unlock your incarnate slots. Those are the most important things to farm for; after that, you have to play the content. This is a good thing even if I wish more people would play the game and learn it. These are good steps in the right direction. 

 

AE Farming should be helping toward the goal, not BE the goal. There's so much to this game and this whole thing is necessary. You can just as easily get your veterans with ITFs on a good run or running other content. I would know, this is ALL I do every time I play. I farm up to 50; radios, AE farming, etc. Once there, I set up what build I've got and run ITFs and everything else I've got. It is ridiculous how fast you can get your veterans - at least 2 or 3 a pop on a great run.

 

These changes are necessary and it does not change the core purpose of farming; getting to 50 and potential incarnates ASAP. 

 

(TBH I think new people in the game should have to level to 50 first before even allowed to touch AE but that's just me.)

[El D]

36 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Improve rewards elsewhere.

 

Removing rewards from what someone already enjoys is what makes people leave games.  It's what made me leave CoH the first time.

 

With that 'Tickets for Shards/Threads' idea, the rewards aren't removed. AE would allow the same depth of progression as it does now, except it'd require that players choose which kind of reward they want to spend their time pursuing - like how every other piece of content in the game already works, rather than being the singular best, fastest option for everything. Even with that change AE would still more rewarding than it was on Live, back when vet levels didn't exist at all and AE didn't grant Incarnate anything. Requiring players to make a choice on what reward they want isn't taking away options, it's asking them to engage with the game itself.

Edited July 15, 2022 by El D

[TrelNargil]

14 minutes ago, luficia said:

(TBH I think new people in the game should have to level to 50 first before even allowed to touch AE but that's just me.)

 

   Omg, that would be a sight to see! The outcry alone would be heard from sea to shining sea lol. Maybe next year, as a April Fool's joke, the Dev's could do something like that... just to see the over reactions and chaos unfold, while all us old folks just... smile... 😄

 

Peace...

[lemming]

37 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I haven't read all ten pages of this thread, and frankly this change won't affect me a bit, but AA's comment is dead on.  AE Farming hasn't been removed -- only one specific aspect of it has.  If you like farming, keep farming!  You'll get lots of goodies still.  Play how you want to play!

 

I know the devs said this isn't a thread for speculating on motives, and I'm looking forward to reading their digest when it comes out.  I suspect that it has a lot to do with AFK farming (which they have stated was something they were against).  Emp merits (normally gained with vet play) convert to reward merits and (I think) can produce inf very quickly when compared to inf generation through defeats and selling drops.  But I'm no expert.

Based on some people's reasons for hating this change, I think you're right.      Someone who has alt accounts to PL them to vet level whatever for emerits and then parks them seem to be the main target.   It's got me more on board for this change than anything else.

[johua]

5 hours ago, Marbing said:

Not saying it would happen. But if AE tickets gave you Incarnate Mats would that work for you?

Nope. Incarnate materials aren't the issue.

Again, I use the emp merits to help fund my character builds. If I lose that funding, then I also lose interest in building new characters, because I am not going to endlessly grind inf to make up for it.

Edited July 15, 2022 by johua

[High_Beam]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:01 PM, Krimson said:

So... another weird idea. What if you kept some farms, remove them from AE (figuratively), add turn them into repeatable missions? You could have 

Contacts in like.. I dunno, Founders Falls and St Martial...Oh and Imperial City for the perma Pretorians. All three of them. Heh.

Or better yet, take advantage of the infinitely repeatable farmable missions at numerous level benchmarks that already exist; Radio/Paper Missions.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, DarknessEternal said:

Improve rewards elsewhere.

 

You'd have to bump rewards across the entire game's content to insane levels just to match up to fire farming.  Or they can simply hammer the obvious outlier.

 

But I think y'all know this.

[Lot]

Just to mention about Empyrean Merits or EMs. There are diminishing returns for them and after veteran level 99 they are not received any more. You get them every three levels between V3 and V99, the amount starts at 20, then becomes 15, then 10, then 5. I tried to add them up in 2020 and came up with 365 but the HC WIki says there are 410 total. EMs can be converted to Reward Merits (1x EM => 10x RM).

 

Approx six sets of purple or winter enhancements or divide out to lower RM cost recipes.

 

While EMs might (have been) a product of farming, I do not think realistically that farmers "farm" for EMs.

[Andreah]

3 minutes ago, Lot said:

While EMs might (have been) a product of farming, I do not think realistically that farmers "farm" for EMs.

Yes, some do, on purpose. 

[Marbing]

16 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

You'd have to bump rewards across the entire game's content to insane levels just to match up to fire farming.  Or they can simply hammer the obvious outlier.

 

But I think y'all know this.

I agree. That is why I made the point about if they quadrupled rewards everywhere else (or raised them past farming) would people still be upset. A few said no. Which begs the question, why then would you be upset with the lowering of rewards from AE Farming (which is essentially the reverse of boosting everything else)? That argument seems to be met with "because I need emp merits to move to other toons". The issue is they don't want to lose access to emp merits in farming. It isn't (as some say) that they can't farm anymore. It is that they want easy access to emp merits. That is what I am gathering. It was even suggested that AE tickets unlock Incarnate stuff and that was still met with  "but emp merits". I think identifying this as the core issue here is important.  

If this is wrong, call me out and explain (without using emp merits) why this change negatively affects you and what workaround would you suggest?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Marbing
I can't type today... or ever.