The Pretty Good AE Debate

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

CoH as an MMORPG is part of a game genre thats inherently based on character development, lore and gradual progression. individuals expressing surprise or disgruntlement at the devs for releasing updates which are in-line with, or build on the genre feels misguided - CoH is not a pickup and play shooter. exploits and methods to circumvent the standard path are the exception rather than the rule

 

the “pay to win” elements which were introduced years ago were disliked by some players as they felt it broke the system of gradual progression which all players were locked into - i expect the disgruntlement against AE is rooted in similar beliefs

 

I think that's a reductive and ultimately destructive way of looking at things. A lot of people are fixated on how they think things should be. A lot of the talk about genre, balance, progression, etc. come across as this nostalgia for gaming in the early 2000s, as if this game were new and being freshly released into the world.

 

It's not new. It's almost 20 years old. And there are people playing that following their little niche obsessions. Shitting on them and saying they are not playing according to plan is insane, especially when you don't have vast resources to do a whole lot with this antiquated game engine.

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

You and others like you just don’t get that City of Heroes is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game, where teaming with others is not only encouraged, but expected.

There is so much more to the game being massively multiplayer than being on a team that I don't know where to begin. Being on a team is a trivial part of it being multiplayer. 

 

Encouraged, yes. Expected, absolutely not. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

 

You and others like you just don’t get that City of Heroes is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game, where teaming with others is not only encouraged, but expected.

 

If you want to solo as a super-hero, that’s fine.  There are other very good video games for that.  Batman: Arkham City, Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy, the just released Marvel’s Spider-Man which I understand is excellent…

 

"Massive" Checks logins, 1690 across 5 shards. Bzzzt.

"Multiplayer" Yup, there are other people playing it.

"Online" Yup, can't log in without an internet connection.

 

"where teaming with others is not only encouraged, but expected." Bzzzt. Wrong. It has always meant you CAN team not that you HAVE to. If you want to force a team environment, there are other games out there that are more suited to it than this one.

[MoonSheep]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I think that's a reductive and ultimately destructive way of looking at things. A lot of people are fixated on how they think things should be. A lot of the talk about genre, balance, progression, etc. come across as this nostalgia for gaming in the early 2000s, as if this game were new and being freshly released into the world.

 

It's not new. It's almost 20 years old. And there are people playing that following their little niche obsessions. Shitting on them and saying they are not playing according to plan is insane, especially when you don't have vast resources to do a whole lot with this antiquated game engine.

 

i’m not sure the age of the game makes it any less of an MMORPG though. dungeons and dragons is 40+ years old, should people forgo the standard playstyle and instead speedrun every session is instead?

 

the people involved in maintaining the game still appear to have a lot of love for the CoH world - i’d say at least 50% of the next update is on costume, customisation and other non-combat elements. just because something is a bit older doesn’t mean it’s not worth the same amount of care and attention as a newer game receives 🤲

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Changing incentives is something every MMO dev team does. It is not nefarious, and it does not force players to do anything. 

Are they trying to improve sales?

[Astralock]

44 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I think that's a reductive and ultimately destructive way of looking at things. A lot of people are fixated on how they think things should be. A lot of the talk about genre, balance, progression, etc. come across as this nostalgia for gaming in the early 2000s, as if this game were new and being freshly released into the world.

 

It's not new. It's almost 20 years old. And there are people playing that following their little niche obsessions. Shitting on them and saying they are not playing according to plan is insane, especially when you don't have vast resources to do a whole lot with this antiquated game engine.

 

Age doesn't matter.  At the end of the day, City of Heroes was designed to be a MMORPG, not an easy mode single-player game, no matter how much some people wish otherwise.  WoW is almost 20 years old, that doesn't stop it from also being a MMORPG.  Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, and Star Wars: The Old Republic are ten years old+, and are still MMORPGs.  At the end of the day, it's like complaining chess should be an easy single-player game because it's thousands of years old.  In the end, it's nonsense as that is not what it was ever designed to be.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Astralock

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

~70 minutes.

 

And AFK farming is ~0.84-0.88m p/m. So 756-792m p/h.

 

For a "less optimal" active farmer's time.... You know, a scrub like me... It takes about two-and-a-half runs of Cult's Fire City map to get a sidekick using a 2xXP booster to 50 right now. At just under 50 minutes per run taking it at a steady but zen-mode pace, call it a hair over two hours.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[The General]

21 minutes ago, Astralock said:

WoW is almost 20 years old, that doesn't stop it from also being a MMORPG.

Hilariously, much of WoW's massive popularity compared to its predecessors came from it's accessibility in that it was one of the first MMOs where teaming wasn't practically mandated to progress in the game. Soloing was completely viable all the way to level cap. WoW is a perfect example of how an MMO not only doesn't need to force people to team, but shouldn't.

[Coyotedancer]

56 minutes ago, Andreah said:

There is so much more to the game being massively multiplayer than being on a team that I don't know where to begin. Being on a team is a trivial part of it being multiplayer. 

 

Encouraged, yes. Expected, absolutely not. 

 

Exactly that. It's an MMO, sure... but it's one that's always been solo-friendly playability-wise, and so has always had a substantial number of both solo and duo/trio small-team players. 

 

That's a feature, Astra, not a bug.

[America's Angel]

16 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

For a "less optimal" active farmer's time.... You know, a scrub like me... It takes about two-and-a-half runs of Cult's Fire City map to get a sidekick using a 2xXP booster to 50 right now. At just under 50 minutes per run taking it at a steady but zen-mode pace, call it a hair over two hours.

 

Might be an idea to suggest in one of the Focused Feedback threads that a 3xXP booster be added to P2W, then?

[Bionic_Flea]

 

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Might be an idea to suggest in one of the Focused Feedback threads that a 3xXP booster be added to P2W, then?

Actually, that's a great idea.  You can get 2XP for free but 3XP is progressively more expensive and has the same zero influence.  Creates a new influence sink.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, America's Angel said:

 

Might be an idea to suggest in one of the Focused Feedback threads that a 3xXP booster be added to P2W, then?

 

Maybe... People can be impatient.

 

Me personally? I'm not bothered by the reduction. It'll add some time to getting a sidekick to 50, sure, but not so much that I'm worried about it. Three hours just isn't that much of an issue over two when you're a zen-type who's doing the farming for fun.

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Actually, that's a great idea.  You can get 2XP for free but 3XP is progressively more expensive and has the same zero influence.  Creates a new influence sink.

 

I like this idea. 

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

 

Age doesn't matter.  At the end of the day, City of Heroes was designed to be a MMORPG, not an easy mode single-player game, no matter how much some people wish otherwise.  WoW is almost 20 years old, that doesn't stop it from also being a MMORPG.  Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2, and Star Wars: The Old Republic are ten years old+, and are still MMORPGs.  At the end of the day, it's like complaining chess should be an easy single-player game because it's thousands of years old.  In the end, it's nonsense as that is not what it was ever designed to be.

 

i completely agree mate. though, there will always be a small number of players who are outside of the MMORPG community who assume that every game is a pickup and play FPS

 

some genres are more about the art than the xp reward - and better for it

Edited August 13, 2022 by MoonSheep

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Are they trying to improve sales?

 

Obviously no. So we can cross greed off the list of motivations for making changes.

[ivanhedgehog]

58 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i completely agree mate. there will always be a small number of players who are outside of the MMORPG community that, for some reason, log onto an MMORPG and its forum and complain the GMs are performing their role to maintain the game as an MMORPG. 

 

i wonder if those people even know what GM stands for.. 

obviously you dont. COH GM's exist to keep the peace, help with stuck missions etc. they do a great job. They are NOT developers. Please do not confuse the 2. anyone can apply to be a GM, it does not require development skills. I may not always agree with the devs, but I do appreciate them. you have a warped idea of what an MMORPG is.(and while you ignore the red dragon in the room, it is not required to RP in a MMORPG either)

[MoonSheep]

3 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

obviously you dont. COH GM's exist to keep the peace, help with stuck missions etc. they do a great job. They are NOT developers. Please do not confuse the 2. anyone can apply to be a GM, it does not require development skills. I may not always agree with the devs, but I do appreciate them. you have a warped idea of what an MMORPG is.(and while you ignore the red dragon in the room, it is not required to RP in a MMORPG either)

 

the post you’ve quoted has been changed about 30 minutes ago but happy to discuss either 

 

what do you feel defines the MMORPG genre?

[Troo]

At this point is there a consensus of what AE should be best at providing what rewards?

 

AE is convenient. (I guess so is Ouro)

AE provides on-demand content. (I guess so does Ouro)

AE provides efficient farming of straight infamy.

AE provides farming of enhancements.

AE provides farming of salvage.

AE provides farming of recipes.

AE provides farming of AE tickets.

AE provides farming of xp.

 

These seem okay with most folks.

As long as it doesn't somehow result in some extreme result? I think so.

 

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, Loc said:

I didn't really see you put the form time in your analysis which was the main thing that "rang the alarm bell" in my head.

You didn't see it because I foolishly left it out. So, again, thanks, and good call on your part. 

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

You and others like you just don’t get that City of Heroes is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game, where teaming with others is not only encouraged, but expected.

 

If you want to solo as a super-hero, that’s fine.  There are other very good video games for that.  Batman: Arkham City, Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy, the just released Marvel’s Spider-Man which I understand is excellent…

Who in the blue F*** do you think you are, talking to someone that way? Shame on you! 

You've basically stated that anyone who solos should just quit the game. Screw you and the holier-than-thou boat you came in on! 

I just can't believe you would state that for all to see. That's seriously disgusting! Consider the taste slapped out the mouth of your avatar! 

See, I was going to leave, but just for that, I'm staying! 

[Darmian]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

AE provides on-demand content. (I guess so does Ouro)

AE provides new content that Ouro doesn't.

 

(Note, not actually disagreeing with your list at all, just adding to it.)

Edited August 14, 2022 by Darmian

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i’m not sure the age of the game makes it any less of an MMORPG though. dungeons and dragons is 40+ years old, should people forgo the standard playstyle and instead speedrun every session is instead?

Why does it have to be one or the other? 

I used to call this "City of Options". I would like to continue to do so. 

[Ukase]

Holy smokes, reading through this thread...it makes me think of political crap like Jordan B. Peterson being interviewed by very liberal reporters! 
And in some ways, I feel like I'm just as guilty, for not really seeing each side from the start. I want to think I've come around, with some of the insights shared by some of you. I mean, I can understand the reasons for the change, even if I don't think the change will impact things the way the devs want. 

But some of you are just outright militant, for and against! It kind of makes me disgusted - and that's saying something, because I can be damned obtuse and more than just a bit of a jerk in my own right. 

In this thread, we've literally had people telling other people to quit this game and go play other games instead. 
That is not the community our HC devs are trying to foster. 

I can disagree with some of you and still appreciate that you have a right to your perspectives. But I cannot condone someone telling other people to quit this game because this game is an "MMORPG". 

It ain't. It never was. If it weren't for global chat channels, badges and arch-villains, I probably would have never teamed. Thanks to badging, I've met some interesting people. Met a few asshats, too, like any population, there's all kinds. 

Some of you ain't that bad. Some of you deserve a kick in the keester. But that's just my opinion. 

This notion that people are seeing this game as it was meant to be, designed to be is interesting. But, just because the game may have been designed to be, meant to be played in a certain fashion, that should in no way dictate how any of us choose to play right now. 

In fact, nobody should dictate how anyone plays. There is no wrong way to play this game, provided it doesn't violate the Code of Conduct. You want to farm, farm. You want to team, team. But farmers shouldn't be giving folks who like to team up any sass, nor should the folks who like to team give any lip to the farmers. 
And fun fact, a fair number of us do both! In fact, I'd say a lot of us! 
 

[Lyrium]

15 hours ago, Astralock said:

 where teaming with others is not only encouraged, but expected.

This is a complete non-sense. If anything, soloing was made easier as the game aged, during live

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

they can just impliment an AFK timer kick

 

It's not that simple.  The AFK timer only works in the "outside" environment, not inside any mission or bases, which they call instances.  And then, even outside, you are not AFK kicked if you are in TF mode, which happens in TFs, Trials, Ouro, and AE.  That code lets people get  ridiculous badges by sitting in a fire taking damage, or letting yourself be mezzed, or AoE healing an army.  If your suggested change effected badgers, I think they might not be happy.  Another side effect would be having to kick a friend from a TF that is almost over because they had an emergency and had to leave.  Right now, they can just park outside until the TF is completed.

 

So while it may be possible to do what you are describing, it might effect other areas of the game, and it definitely wouldn't be easy.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Bionic_Flea