The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

It might be time to start rethinking about locking the AE to level 50's only.

And how would that be done without locking out people like myself who use it to write SFMAs for lower levels to play?  Sure, you can exemp when you go into them, and no issues with that, but I for one don't want level 20s shut off from stuff I specifically wrote so that those levels could play them.

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

it’s written in a rather hyperbolic manner but i do stand by it. the game has become easier and easier over time, identifiable archetypes no longer exist and there’s not really any team dynamic anymore. the original CoH experience is going the way of the dodo without any meaningful intervention

 

any suggestion to introduce moderation or balance is met with a very petulant mob

What does that have to do with the previous removal of vet levels and the thread/emp bonuses? Every AT and powerset can earn those in AE, so it's an even field. It doesn't blur the lines of any AT or powerset. 

There is no possible way to create balance amongst all ATs and powersets. It is literally impossible. Why? Because one player can create a build and make it shine with clever IO slotting (and player skill)  while another player will struggle to do so. As long as there are invention set bonuses, there will not be balance. How could it exist? 

[UltraAlt]

42 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I can tell you flat-out that isn't happening.

 

You can say what you want, but you aren't a DEV.

If they wanted to say it to me they could.

[UltraAlt]

23 minutes ago, Darmian said:

And how would that be done without locking out people like myself who use it to write SFMAs for lower levels to play?

 

I write them to, but how many players have played them?

Only ones that you take along with you?

I mean be honest about it.

 

25 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I for one don't want level 20s shut off from stuff I specifically wrote so that those levels could play them.

 

I don't want to say it sounds like a power-leveling defense, but it sounds like a power-leveling defense.

 

Are your level 20 missions DEV Choice missions?

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, luficia said:

I'm looking forward to seeing about testing the merits for myself when I get a chance tonight!

 

I'd like to have some GM clarification in the Dev Diary of why the change was reverted. This sets a clear line that if people cry loud enough, they'll get what they want and those people will feel empowered. That's not a good thing.  There has to be other factors why the change was reverted but that does not fix the big problem of people just grinding in AE content and then when they choose to play content but don't know what they are doing. It's a set back, if anything.

 

The situation I mentioned before is only going to get worse. 

There is no real need to come here and whine about people giving feedback. The devs decided based on what people said, and people do have the right to give feedback with out your permission. Maybe we can discuss the decisions, not other peoples whining.

[JayboH]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

You can say what you want, but you aren't a DEV.

If they wanted to say it to me they could.

They have said it in response to these changes.  I have zero reason to lie to you.  It isn't happening.  They are fine with people getting PLed to 50.

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Are your level 20 missions DEV Choice missions?

Four of them are, but frankly that's beside the point.  I wrote them as best as I could and got lucky. There was no guarantee I'd get those.

 

However I specifically wrote them to cover a gap in Gold side between Neutropolis and First Ward - this is veering off the OP, apologies - so that Gold players could have a proper transition rather than just (a) taking the Rift or (b) abruptly going to First Ward.  Sure, anyone can play them (and I encourage people to do so!) but they have a distinct purpose even beyond their story.

 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's patience while I now climb down off my soapbox.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I write them to, but how many players have played them?

Only ones that you take along with you?

I mean be honest about it.

Even if what you state is 100 % accurate - which I say it isn't, but that's descending into "She said/He said" - so what? 

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't want to say it sounds like a power-leveling defense, but it sounds like a power-leveling defense.

I actually don't understand this statement.  Please break it down for me.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Darmian

[Nurvus]

4 hours ago, luficia said:

There's a serious problem grinding and not playing the game only to go try to do something like ITF and don't know what they are doing or because of the farm mentality is so high, they contribute nothing. I have to remove them.

 

This is exactly what keeps me away from trying a lot of content in CoH. The game is old and the expectation is that everyone already knows every bit of content. Guess what, I don't. I am pretty confident I can learn quickly since CoH isn't really mechanically difficult, but the assumption that if I don't know something I'm an AE-dwelling idiot is a huge barrier.

[brattycommissar2]

33 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Four of them are, but frankly that's beside the point.  I wrote them as best as I could and got lucky. There was no guarantee I'd get those.

 

However I specifically wrote them to cover a gap in Gold side between Neutropolis and First Ward - this is veering off the OP, apologies - so that Gold players could have a proper transition rather than just (a) taking the Rift or (b) abruptly going to First Ward.  Sure, anyone can play them (and I encourage people to do so!) but they have a distinct purpose even beyond their story.

 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's patience while I now climb down off my soapbox.

nah, thank you for climbing it, you made solid points in the face of a ridiculous declaration that's accompanied by snide remarks that assume the worst of you

[Bionic_Flea]

5 minutes ago, Nurvus said:

This is exactly what keeps me away from trying a lot of content in CoH. The game is old and the expectation is that everyone already knows every bit of content. Guess what, I don't. I am pretty confident I can learn quickly since CoH isn't really mechanically difficult, but the assumption that if I don't know something I'm an AE-dwelling idiot is a huge barrier.

Just let folks know that you are new and have questions.  While there are some elitist jerks, I think you will find the vast majority of players will be happy to walk you through whatever questions you might have.

[arcane]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

in-game pvp is dead, Focused Feedback and Suggestions are the new Sirens Call and Warburg

This lol

[brattycommissar2]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Just let folks know that you are new and have questions.  While there are some elitist jerks, I think you will find the vast majority of players will be happy to walk you through whatever questions you might have.

neverminding that obviously even vets to the game have bits they won't know and are liable to ask questions themselves without them ALSO being something that should be disparaged--- neverminding that AE farmed characters shouldn't be disparaged anyway imo--- people here CAN be really nice. please just ignore the jerks, if they're just screaming insults into a void they will eventually shut up!

[MoonSheep]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

What does that have to do with the previous removal of vet levels and the thread/emp bonuses? Every AT and powerset can earn those in AE, so it's an even field. It doesn't blur the lines of any AT or powerset. 

There is no possible way to create balance amongst all ATs and powersets. It is literally impossible. Why? Because one player can create a build and make it shine with clever IO slotting (and player skill)  while another player will struggle to do so. As long as there are invention set bonuses, there will not be balance. How could it exist? 

 

a well slotted IO build used to be reserved for your main alt which would be your pride and joy - in the modern era people can spin up a new fully kitted out lvl 50 every few days. IOs used to balance themselves through price

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

IOs used to balance themselves through price

 

Sure with single IO sets costing several billion influence on the exchange back in the day, and that was not even purple sets.  No thank you.  We do not need to go back to that. 

[Coyotedancer]

20 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

a well slotted IO build used to be reserved for your main alt which would be your pride and joy - in the modern era people can spin up a new fully kitted out lvl 50 every few days. IOs used to balance themselves through price

 

I must have been doing things wrong all along, then...

 

I don't know about anyone else, but mine have all gotten equipped reasonably well all along. Maybe not QUICKLY, mind... Especially back in the old days of red and blue sides having separate markets... But eventually. I couldn't see them as complete otherwise. The favorites just got the first pick of the better stuff.  

[Ukase]

27 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

a well slotted IO build used to be reserved for your main alt which would be your pride and joy - in the modern era people can spin up a new fully kitted out lvl 50 every few days. IOs used to balance themselves through price

I see nothing wrong with this. In fact, I see that as an excellent and praiseworthy thing. Why should folks spend hours upon hours, grinding away to get this? It makes sense in a pay for play scenario. The folks investing their cash want profit for their investment. The more they can prolong your journey, the more money they make. In the context of this flavor of CoH, you can offer the argument that things could be even cheaper, with more items in the AH seeded at a price lower than what we see routinely now. 

I do understand there should be some effort - after all, if it's just given away, it's not valuable. But in context, I'd say things are at a pretty good spot now. Just my opinion, and we all have one we're entitled to, including you. I was just curious how you felt the removal of the vet levels from AE play was going to do anything positive for the game regarding balance that you mentioned. 

[MoonSheep]

18 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I see nothing wrong with this. In fact, I see that as an excellent and praiseworthy thing. Why should folks spend hours upon hours, grinding away to get this? It makes sense in a pay for play scenario. The folks investing their cash want profit for their investment. The more they can prolong your journey, the more money they make. In the context of this flavor of CoH, you can offer the argument that things could be even cheaper, with more items in the AH seeded at a price lower than what we see routinely now. 

I do understand there should be some effort - after all, if it's just given away, it's not valuable. But in context, I'd say things are at a pretty good spot now. Just my opinion, and we all have one we're entitled to, including you. I was just curious how you felt the removal of the vet levels from AE play was going to do anything positive for the game regarding balance that you mentioned. 

 

my opinions differ as i have reverse altitis, i play just two alts since returning to CoH - the journey and gradual progression is what makes CoH a great game in my view

 

shifting the playerbase back towards team based missions and actually having to play the game to receive rewards reintroduces balance in that the top rewards are earned through playing and are more of a rarity. i think it’s a good thing that top end rewards should be hard to achieve 

 

whilst PLing existed back on live, the modern AE cheats and exploits have ramped things up a notch - it’s unnatural, like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth 

[brattycommissar2]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

my opinions differ as i have reverse altitis, i play just two alts since returning to CoH - the journey and gradual progression is what makes CoH a great game in my view

 

shifting the playerbase back towards team based missions and actually having to play the game to receive rewards reintroduces balance in that the top rewards are earned through playing and are more of a rarity. i think it’s a good thing that top end rewards should be hard to achieve 

 

whilst PLing existed back on live, the modern AE cheats and exploits have ramped things up a notch - it’s unnatural, like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth 

i'm glad that you've been able to play the game in a way that you have found fulfilling! please understand that others have done so as well and it's just that they played it differently!

[MoonSheep]

1 minute ago, brattycommissar2 said:

i'm glad that you've been able to play the game in a way that you have found fulfilling! please understand that others have done so as well and it's just that they played it differently!

 

AE has strayed from gods light and must be smited 🙏

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

IOs used to balance themselves through price

"Balance" via scarcity is not balance.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

They have said it in response to these changes.  I have zero reason to lie to you.  It isn't happening.  They are fine with people getting PLed to 50.

 

If they were fine with characters getting power-leveled to 50, they wouldn't be taking the AE out of Atlas, or maybe it is only certain players they are trying to discourage from power-leveling.

 

Removal of AE from Atlas is a thing. I have zero reason to lie to you.

[Jacke]

3 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If they were fine with characters getting power-leveled to 50, they wouldn't be taking the AE out of Atlas, or maybe it is only certain players they are trying to discourage from power-leveling.

 

Removal of AE from Atlas is a thing. I have zero reason to lie to you.

 

AE is being removed from Atlas Park and Mercy Island so that:

• New players have to at least zone once to get to an AE facility, thus experience more of the game, and hopefully don't just get locked into AE alone.
• To reduce the lag that AE generates in those zones, especially bad in Atlas.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Darmian said:

Four of them are, but frankly that's beside the point.  I wrote them as best as I could and got lucky. There was no guarantee I'd get those.

 

That's great.

I'm glad that sub-50 AE arcs are encouraged.

You didn't get lucky, it was your skill in writing the missions and being willing to post to get them acknowledged. In no way do I begrudge you that, I keep my mask on so it limits my operations at some points and this is one of them.

 

So this proves a point that it was acknowledged as a good arc by the DEVs. 

That is one thing and the other are they actually being played?

You could still write, post, and get DEV accreditation for level 20 arcs even if only level 50's can have access to the AE.

 

Why would a level 50 play them?

Same reason they would play Oroborus mission arcs.

 

4 hours ago, Darmian said:

However I specifically wrote them to cover a gap in Gold side between Neutropolis and First Ward - this is veering off the OP, apologies - so that Gold players could have a proper transition rather than just (a) taking the Rift or (b) abruptly going to First Ward.  Sure, anyone can play them (and I encourage people to do so!) but they have a distinct purpose even beyond their story.

 

Veering off is good.

I would hope at some point that DEVs Choices could be moved into the actual game. Yours looks like a good example of the kind of thing that could be added into the game directly instead of random players finding it through the AE or by reading about it in the forums.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Darmian said:

 

 

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I write them to, but how many players have played them?

Only ones that you take along with you?

I mean be honest about it.

Even if what you state is 100 % accurate - which I say it isn't, but that's descending into "She said/He said" - so what? 

 

I'm confused about your comment about accuracy in my statement.

Are you saying that I don't post arcs?

I think I have 3 up at this point. I have about 8 in various stages of being completed. Some of which just need to be updated from before the Sunset.

I think I have had one commented on. I can't tell by ticket count how many of played the missions that I posted, but I would have to say not many.

 

You should have an idea by the ticket count and comments if anyone is playing them.

 

In my experience, most AE play tends to be done by the mission creator recruiting for players to run their missions the same way that one would get a team to run any other kind of content.

I have run into 1 player publicly announcing that they were looking for people to run their arc in the /LFG channel, so well over 99% of the /LFG chat that I see for AE is Farming in general or doorsitters.

 

In no way was my comment above descending into "She said/He said".

You didn't reply into regard to how much traffic your missions get, and I haven't refuted your claims.

There is no need to be defensive.

 

The DEVs are seeing this. Some other players may be reading this.

It is getting the situation out in the open which is the whole point.

 

4 hours ago, Darmian said:

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't want to say it sounds like a power-leveling defense, but it sounds like a power-leveling defense.

I actually don't understand this statement.  Please break it down for me.

 

Your point is a very rational reason that one could take to only allow AE access to level 50s.

From your reply, you seem to have posted your comment with all sincerity. 

 

You have to understand that the people that want to continue abusing the AE are going to 1) always think that it is okay and 2) are going to find ways to defend the power-leveling.

 

Myself, I find powerleveling in the AE different than power-leveling that occurs by level 50's say in police scanner missions in Peregrine Island.

AE farming power-leveling is based on players building missions to abuse the system to reap rewards.

Running police scanner missions can also level you quickly, but players are generally fighting targets that they have to defeat in a fair fight ... that isn't to say that they aren't picking and choosing the enemy type, but it is a limited choice and one that the DEVs worked into the game.

 

Maybe you see where I'm coming from and maybe you don't.

I wish the DEVs had stuck to their guns when the AE first came out. It would have taken policing efforts and/or a lot more coding to catch balancing issues.

I know that the Homecoming DEVs don't have time for the policing efforts, so any abuse of the system would have to be handled through coding to catch balancing issues.

 

AE Farming is ingrained in many as the way to play the AE and game in THE CITY in general.

Honestly, that is one of the main factors that drove me to stop subscribing to City of Heroes almost exactly a year before the Sunset.

 

My stance has nothing to you with you, and I'm sorry that you would experience collateral damage if my suggestion would ever happen.

The Farmers and power-levelers all think it won't happen.

 

I'm seeing changes and sometimes someone has to throw the bone out there to see who pounces on it.

 

I would love to be able to go into the AE and pick any mission and not find myself in a farm.

I can go in there and check out the DEVs choices, but all the farming stuff has kind of soured me on the AE quite a bit.

 

I could ask the DEVs for more AE slots to post more of my non-farming AE missions, but I honestly feel like "what's the point?"

 

I'm glad that you are sticking with it, keep on making honest story missions that other players might end up playing.

I really used to think creating AE missions was a lot of fun.

[brass_eagle]

13 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Players that start villain have a plan already.

 

Muahaha. 

 

Kidding. 

 

In fairness I am interested where the next hub will be. That is left to chance. If the devs have major overhaul plans for specific zone (besides K. WHARF), I can see some being miffed at having to move location from established tradition twice.

 

But ya never know. The major problem was Atlas being a hub for a range of things besides AE. Sitting in the AE building make it would make it worse, not unbearable but noticble on heavy traffic. But at least a cool new building! I like new things! 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

my opinions differ as i have reverse altitis, i play just two alts since returning to CoH - the journey and gradual progression is what makes CoH a great game in my view

 

shifting the playerbase back towards team based missions and actually having to play the game to receive rewards reintroduces balance in that the top rewards are earned through playing and are more of a rarity. i think it’s a good thing that top end rewards should be hard to achieve 

 

whilst PLing existed back on live, the modern AE cheats and exploits have ramped things up a notch - it’s unnatural, like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth 

In that context, I agree - except for the part about teaming. Teaming has its place in this game, of course. But if you do nothing but team, you never really know how your character is. End troubles are hard to notice if you're getting speed boost or AM or RA. Accuracy troubles are hard to notice if you're getting fort, or basking in the aura of several Tactics running. 

I would try to team more if I got paid the same rewards as the team lead. Unless you're in Ouro, only the team lead gets those merits, unless you're collaboratively completing the missions as you go. And that just doesn't happen very often for me, if ever, unless I set it up with my SG in advance. And half of those folks find it too troublesome or complicated to bother with it. There are so many reasons to not team up, and I'm hard pressed to find many reasons TO team up. That's just me and my circumstances - of course, yours and many others will be different. But my circumstances are every bit as relevant to me as yours are to you. 

Soloing is critical for my play, and my fun. And, during the week, I go afk so often, it would be rude for me to even try to team. So, yeah, let me drink that OJ right before bed, figuratively speaking, of course. Orange Juice is gross, I'd rather just have an orange. At least then there's some pith and fiber to slow down the sugar absorption. But that's another topic for another day.