What does it mean to be Level 50 versus Incarnate?

[BurtHutt]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:49 AM, EmperorSteele said:

The lore of the well and gaining incarnate powers does have issues (like how the "slow path to power" is just a few hours of farming, and how the Well is granting you power because it needs strong fighters but then wants you to have to earn it...yeah ok, be stingy, have fun getting eaten, jerk!), but I'm also surprised by how many people reject it outright, like they're offended that changes to the game world and mechanics would dare affect their characters!

 

Some of y'all take your characters' backstories and your own creativity WAY too seriously. But whatevs.

I don't really do backstories on my toons. I have ideas in mind and that's about it. I spend hours on a toon so, yes, I am invested. However, I don't think I take it too seriously (or maybe you don't take it seriously enough?). I prefer not being attached and hooked into the CoH lore and having it as an option. I think it would be cool if the HC team had an alternate option to the incarnate path. Like make a new system and powers and implement it into game. It could mirror the incarnate system or be very different or maybe even both - players would have to pick one of the two paths. 🙂 

 

Anyway, I think it's pretty pretentious of you to suggest how serious one is to take a game they play. 

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Team context

A huge group of people in the forums say Incarnates take away all the fun where in reality, lowbies would love the incarnates for carrying them in an endgame taskforce or 50 radio missions.

 

Am I understand this correctly, do you see the Incarnate powers as a power-leveling tool like the AE?

Do some players doorsit in missions when there is an Incarnate involved?

[Spaghetti Betty]

20 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Am I understand this correctly, do you see the Incarnate powers as a power-leveling tool like the AE?

Do some players doorsit in missions when there is an Incarnate involved?

Not to steal the answer, but I just wanna offer some perspective.

 

Incarnate powers were designed to be powerful tools utilized in challenging content that never had the chance to exist, yet we have access to them.

 

Let's take a standard level 50 radio mission. Any single fully decked out Incarnate can dumpster these at +4 because of the strength of the powers available. A T3 and up Alpha nets you a +1 level shift to all content, so 54s now only con as +3 to you, severely reducing the effects of the Purple Patch as you fight.

 

Now add, say, 3 or 4 more Incarnates on the same team and your sk'd hero fighting lvl 54s won't have much of a role in combat compared to the small group of gods in your team, unless they contribute in other ways that aren't damage.

 

I wouldn't say that would necessarily lead people to doorsit, but I don't think anyone would argue against saying those sk'd heroes are being carried a bit by their Incarnate teammates.

[blue4333]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Am I understand this correctly, do you see the Incarnate powers as a power-leveling tool like the AE?

Do some players doorsit in missions when there is an Incarnate involved?

 

Not doorsit but it's more of helping the team plough through the mobs. Ever been on an ITF +4 kill all with only 1 50 and the rest lowbies? It's pretty slow and I doubt it's fun for the lowbies to keep missing their attacks too. 

 

An Incarnate or several would make it much smoother.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Not to steal the answer, but I just wanna offer some perspective.

I mean, a fully IO'd-out character, with all those set bonuses, arguably has just as much of an advantage.  Then there's accolades, temp powers, the ability to dual-box, and so on.  Yes, Incarnate abilities are undoubtedly powerful, but it's the combination of things that really push you over that power curve.  Heck, certain powerset combinations function far beyond the mean of their given AT...

[Spaghetti Betty]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

I mean, a fully IO'd-out character, with all those set bonuses, arguably has just as much of an advantage.  Then there's accolades, temp powers, the ability to dual-box, and so on.  Yes, Incarnate abilities are undoubtedly powerful, but it's the combination of things that really push you over that power curve.  Heck, certain powerset combinations function far beyond the mean of their given AT...

Also all true, but IOs have been in the game far longer than Incarnates. Incarnates just made the power scaling far more skewed.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Not doorsit but it's more of helping the team plough through the mobs. Ever been on an ITF +4 kill all with only 1 50 and the rest lowbies? It's pretty slow and I doubt it's fun for the lowbies to keep missing their attacks too. 

 

An Incarnate or several would make it much smoother.

 

Couldn't the team adjust the level to a +level that the team can handle?

[Black Talon]

This is a point that's completely irrelevant to the current discussion; just submitting an opinion.

 

My eponymous Claws/Regen Scrapper, after a full outfit with purple/red recipes, can now do +4 police scanner missions solo.  However, these expeditions do often represent a real challenge, which is what I want.  Running through these things like Darkseid/Thanos tearing apart a kindergarten class, watching the XP bar move up like a thermometer in an oven, is not what I'd refer to as fun.  As an example, Black Talon has to be real careful when taking on the Bane Spider Scouts, as (at 54) they label out such damage per-hit that they can (and have) taken him out single-handed.  This necessitated some tactical reconsideration on my part: Keep hitting the so-and-so's with Focus to make sure they're on the ground and they'll be hitting back as little as possible, and Reconstruction/Dull Pain in the event said so-and-so's compatriots start inflicting their own serious damage while I'm giving Bud what for.

 

This all means I have to pay attention to the surroundings, incipient and upcoming threats, and personal condition on a continual basis.  This, for me, is interesting, and confirms part of the reason why I choose to leave the Incarnate thing to individuals who might be interested in such.  This might mean that my alts will be left out of certain team opportunities - as has happened - but I'm quite content to leave those arrangements to individuals who prefer to take that direction.

[UltraAlt]

40 minutes ago, Black Talon said:

However, these expeditions do often represent a real challenge, which is what I want

 

How is this Incarnate-empowered challenge different than sub-level 50 content (with or without TO, DO, SO, IO, or IO set enhances) in increased difficulty level and mob size?

 

Is it being that it is level 50 content that makes it feel like it is more of a challenge merely because it is level 50 content?

That is to say, if you were level 25 and street hunting level 29 mobs or running +4 level 25 door missions, is that more or less of a challenge then running level 50 missions with a level 50 at +4?

 

49 minutes ago, Black Talon said:

This, for me, is interesting, and confirms part of the reason why I choose to leave the Incarnate thing to individuals who might be interested in such.

 

So you level lock your characters at level 50 or do you let them level and simply don't unlock and powers in the incarnate stuff that is automatically unlocking on your characters?

 

Also do you power-level all your characters to level 50 and start playing from there?

 

[Black Talon]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

How is this Incarnate-empowered challenge different than sub-level 50 content (with or without TO, DO, SO, IO, or IO set enhances) in increased difficulty level and mob size?

 

Is it being that it is level 50 content that makes it feel like it is more of a challenge merely because it is level 50 content?

That is to say, if you were level 25 and street hunting level 29 mobs or running +4 level 25 door missions, is that more or less of a challenge then running level 50 missions with a level 50 at +4?

 

 

So you level lock your characters at level 50 or do you let them level and simply don't unlock and powers in the incarnate stuff that is automatically unlocking on your characters?

 

Also do you power-level all your characters to level 50 and start playing from there?

 

I'm really not too sure where, why or how this criticism was instigated, or is relevant to the opinion that was submitted, but I will try to respond in as succinct and non-confrontational a manner as possible.

 

Re point one: It's probably not, and I'm not really interested in addressing any possible differences between level 50 and sub-50 content experiences, because these are so idiosyncratic that there's no reasonable basis of comparison.  All I can state is that the current arrangement provides entertainment on my part, and that's all I'm concerned in commenting on.

 

Re point two: My guys, at 25, were quite challenged enough doing +0/+1, depending on the AT.  I'm quite frankly not interested in commenting on a hypothetical situation, and whether that is, "more or less of a challenge" than, "running level 50 missions with a level 50 at +4", is a choice that's up to the individual player and the individual alone.

 

Re point three: Yes.  I just leave them at 50, run through the police scanner missions, collect Veteran levels, enjoy the fact that I've got another respec granted every 15 Veteran levels, and use the cash to purchase the occasional purple/red recipe, and join up with a pick-up/SG-based team when possible.  That's all.

 

Re point four: No.  I have never power-leveled a single alt I've ever created, pre- or post-Shutdown.  One of the points that keeps me coming back to this game are the arcs, and the enjoyment of pushing through the various stories that the Devs put themselves to creating, back in the day, and the opportunity to establish conflict with, and finally take out, various Elite Bosses/Arch-Villains.  My alts have sixty-plus Souvenirs by the time they hit 50, and I'm quite happy to engage in any remaining arcs that contacts might have available.  Again, I'm really not quite sure what previous statements might have given any indication about "power-leveling" as a route to 50, but this is a route that, once again, I have never engaged in.

 

I believe I've stated the matter about as clearly as I possibly can.  I will refrain from further comment on this matter.

[ShardWarrior]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:13 PM, UltraAlt said:

That is one of the things that really upset me about the Incarnate system was the lore that forced "godhood" or, at least, "demigodhood" upon my character. I was playing a superhero game and not a game about becoming a demigod.

 

Totally agree here.  I never cared for this idea, but I do understand the lore limitations around it. 

[blue4333]

21 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Couldn't the team adjust the level to a +level that the team can handle?

 

Yeah of course, but if the leader wants to run at +4, should the leader exclude non-50s and non-incarnates then?

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, Black Talon said:

I'm quite frankly not interested in commenting on a hypothetical situation, and whether that is, "more or less of a challenge" than, "running level 50 missions with a level 50 at +4", is a choice that's up to the individual player and the individual alone.

 

It's not a hypothetical, but that is fine.

 

And, of course, I'm not asking you and not any other player in my directe reply to you.

 

17 hours ago, Black Talon said:

Yes.  I just leave them at 50, run through the police scanner missions, collect Veteran levels, enjoy the fact that I've got another respec granted every 15 Veteran levels, and use the cash to purchase the occasional purple/red recipe, and join up with a pick-up/SG-based team when possible.  That's all.

 

That answers my question.

You don't level-lock them (aka turn off XP gain) at 50.

 

18 hours ago, Black Talon said:

Re point four: No.

 

Thanks for your answer.

 

18 hours ago, Black Talon said:

Again, I'm really not quite sure what previous statements might have given any indication about "power-leveling" as a route to 50, but this is a route that, once again, I have never engaged in.

 

Because you were only talking about level 50's but perhaps you didn't read my post that starts this thread.

 

You seem to state that you find the level 50 +content enjoyable, and there was no comment about how challenging lower level content can be.

 

I tend to run characters at +2, 2 solo by the time they are level 10 or so. It isn't fast. I'm not nuking whole mobs. I have to sneak around and figure how to dissect mobs so that I can take them out before they take me out.

 

I understand some or, maybe even, many players like to bulldoze or feel like they are defeating a bunch of more powerful opponents easily (are they really more powerful if you are defeating quickly and easily?). It's what they enjoy doing.

 

I play differently, so I sometimes I wonder what the behavior is other than simply the feeling of being an uber end-gamer .. so I ask questions.

My questions in this thread are trying to get a response so I can get a feeling of how players are viewing things from different angles.

 

 

18 hours ago, Black Talon said:

I'm really not too sure where, why or how this criticism was instigated, or is relevant to the opinion that was submitted, but I will try to respond in as succinct and non-confrontational a manner as possible.

 

Because I created this thread, and I'm mining information from because my original post is what I'm interested in finding information about.

 

If you post in any thread, you can expect any kind of feedback from anyone in the forums.

 

If you don't like feedback, then don't post or put people on ignore if you don't want to read the feedback or questions they are giving you.

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Yeah of course, but if the leader wants to run at +4, should the leader exclude non-50s and non-incarnates then?

 

If the leader wants to, they can. If they are leading, they have the star which gives them the boot.

I would suggest that they announce in advance that they aren't recruiting level 50s.

 

I've never kicked level 50's simply because I saw they were a level 50 on a team I was running.

I've never listed to recruit a team that indicating that I wasn't accepting level 50's on a team.

 

It's all a matter of difficulty, isn't it?

 

Obviously, sub-50 content (the game) is going to be easier with someone 10 levels higher on the team ... let alone level 50s or level 50 with incarnate powers.

 

Level 20 bubblers in DFB makes it a cake walk to get all the badges unless someone intentionally goes after the minions on the Vazh badge.

Level 50 on a DFB just wreck the joint. And they show up more than you might think.

 

I guess it's like this, if you like a challenge  and then go ruin other people's challenge, then what are you achieving? Is that something that makes you feel good about what is going on? Do the other team members appreciate what could have been challenging turn into chasing a higher level character that is doing all the work?

Maybe they are looking for a challenge as well?

 

I mean if they didn't want to experience the content and have a challenge as they level, they could just doorsit in the AE to 50. 

A good number of people seem to do that.

Edited August 19, 2022 by UltraAlt
reworded a bit

[Linea]

With the new hard mode content coming:

Incarnate:  Assumes +1, but no other unlocks required.

 

Tier 1 Incarnate Arcs:  These are the existing arcs.  They are designed for 50+0 and 50+1, and once you reach 50+3 and Tier 4 Incarnates tend to be considerably easy.

 

Tier 4 Incarnate Arcs (Team):   These are the new incoming arcs.  Assume a full team of +1s.

Tier 4 Incarnate Arcs (Solo):  Assumes all incarnates unlocked and slotted with Tier 4 powers in them.  Hornet slaughtered these mercilessly, but I've also been told they are so difficult as to be completely unplayable.  Hornet is a Tier 4 monster, by comparison at 50+0 these arcs are likely very difficult.

 

1-Star Hardmode:  Assumes +1 and all incarnates unlocked and at least Tier 1 powers in them.

2-Star Hardmode:  At least Tier 2 powers in all slots.

3-Star Hardmode:  At least Tier 3 powers in all slots.

4-Star Hardmode:  Tier 4 powers in all slots.

 

[Sir Myshkin]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:38 AM, Coyotedancer said:

Thread drift happens. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

.... >_>

 

Spoiler

 

It Lives.

 

[UltraAlt]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:40 AM, Linea said:

With the new hard mode content coming:

 

So maybe it's time to ask the original question again?

Here is the setup and the question.

 

Level 50 appears to be the highest level one can be a superhero.

 

Incarnate appears to start once the Alpha Slot is unlocked.

"....Incarnates are humans who have been exposed to the Well of the Furies in some way, empowering them with the powers of the gods themselves. As such, they are substantially more powerful than most other superbeings."

 

What do you think are the differences from standpoints of lore, gameplay, teaming, ingame social, etc.?

 

 

[MoonSheep]

4 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

.... >_>

 

  Hide contents

 

It Lives.

 

 

that is so funny

[Sir Myshkin]

21 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

What do you think are the differences from standpoints of lore, gameplay, teaming, ingame social, etc.?

I kinda dodged this before, but I can be more direct on this specifically. The Incarnate system has only had logistical value to one of my characters in all the entirety of my experience with City of Heroes beyond just existing as another usable mechanic in the game. From a lore standpoint one of my earliest creations was something equivalent to a god and was role played that way, the idea of something like the Well of the Furies was a laughable thing to them. Of course we are bound to the limitations of the game so we have to play within that confine, but the Invention System does a lot to leverage unique capabilities and play styles when it comes to enhancing character far more than the Incarnate system ever will/has, and as such I see that as being the true system in this game that really defines whether a character is going to be blatantly powerful or not. All the Incarnate system tends to do is either band-aid broken characters, or top off a good drink for completed builds (from a solo perspective).

 

As a side idiom there are things like the Incarnate Trials where specific things like Destiny and Lore Pets are more uniquely leveraged to the tasks within those trials, and the Destiny abilities give a group of players the chance to help patch and unify a large swathe of players abilities/defenses/resistances in quick burst AoE format. Look at this conceptually like a snow globe though and this kind of shows that this is an isolated concept. I put 16 players into a glass jar (does it matter which 16?), shake it up (trigger 16 Destiny effects), and now there's snow everywhere (Barrier, Clarion, Rebirth, etc). Who cares what their builds were, for the next two minutes they all have +200 everything so what difference did it make which 16 characters I put in the jar?

 

Now, having said all of that, we technically only have a handful of what was intended to be the full Incarnate tree and only a few souls out there are privy to what the remainder of that future actually held, and how much of an impact it may have yet still had on the game, and our characters.

 

That disclaimer aside, there is no one character I've personally designed (without explicit intent on certain projects) that can be bested by its Incarnate version outside of a level shift state. The only thing that the Incarnate system brought to the table for players like me is "harder content." Levels shifts, bigger HP bags, tougher defenses, higher To-Hit scales, but all of this is still capable of being confronted from within the IO world. This is why there are challenges out there to not use Inspirations, Lore Pets, Temp Powers, etc. How much of that excess can be stripped back?

 

To confront the question what the differences between hitting 50, and the Incarnate world, the answer is purely subjective, personal, an experiential notion of the player. That's not really an opinion so much as it is a fact. Excluding the advent of level shifting, there is nothing so far that the inclusion of the Incarnate system has introduced that cannot be faced without its powers.

[Megajoule]

At least one of my characters (the one in my forum avatar, and my first ever) is "merely" an ordinary superbeing - a mortal scientist (well, grad student) who acquired Strange Powers and Abilities in one of those all-too-common lab accidents.  She possesses no divine spirit nor embodies no grand concept; in any contest of gods (or demigods) she'd be well-and-truly outclassed.  And yet, due to the Incarnate system as implemented here, she's been unlocking slots (which I haven't filled) ever since she hit 50.  If you check some of my earliest posts on this forum, you'll see I was rather annoyed by that, and have done my best to ignore it - on that particular character - ever since.

 

(Another of my characters, the Spirit of the Row, is a (small) god in his own right - a genius loci - and gains his powers not from the Well, but from his own land and people.  Another is basically a tulpa, a being willed into existence by collective need and belief.  This city takes all kinds.)

[Black Zot]

People's inability to let go of the (terribly-written) lore around all this appears to be the root of a lot of the "issues" regarding incarnate stuff.  Seriously, it's just a collection of extra powers that unlock themselves as you keep playing a level 50 character.  It can come from Crazy Eddie's Super Novelty Shop for all that it matters.  

 

The writing around power origins in this game has always been a bad joke.  Just write your own origin story and go kill some Skulls already.  Unless you're roleplaying a Skull, in which case go kill some Hellions instead.