What does it mean to be Level 50 versus Incarnate?

[UltraAlt]

I don't really play 50's  and I don't like the incarnate system (seems it has improved a bit over time).

 

I am thinking for some reason about what it means to be level 50 versus what it means to be Incarnate (and when that really starts).

 

Level 50 appears to be the highest level one can be a superhero.

 

Incarnate appears to start once the Alpha Slot is unlocked.

"....Incarnates are humans who have been exposed to the Well of the Furies in some way, empowering them with the powers of the gods themselves. As such, they are substantially more powerful than most other superbeings."

 

What do you think are the differences from standpoints of lore, gameplay, teaming, ingame social, etc.

[Marshal_General]

Your first incarnate level shift from your alpha applies to all the game. The other 2 level shifts only apply to incarnate content.

 

Lore wise we are taking the slow path to becoming gods.

[Shred Monkey]

In truth, the biggest boost from Incarnates comes from the first slot.  It gives you a +1 level and, assuming you take damage (which you probably should) it adds a full enhancement worth of damage to your attacks beyond the ED cap.  If you're fighting level 54s, the difference between a level 50 hitting using an attack with no incarnate and a level 50+1 with tier 4 muscular using the same attack is quite significant.

 

With only a few exceptions, the other incarnate stuff kind of fluff because it is either:  1) situational use only 2) too small to matter, or 3) complete overkill of something you didn't really need.

 

 

[Astralock]

11 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

In truth, the biggest boost from Incarnates comes from the first slot.  It gives you a +1 level and, assuming you take damage (which you probably should) it adds a full enhancement worth of damage to your attacks beyond the ED cap.  If you're fighting level 54s, the difference between a level 50 hitting using an attack with no incarnate and a level 50+1 with tier 4 muscular using the same attack is quite significant.

 

With only a few exceptions, the other incarnate stuff kind of fluff because it is either:  1) situational use only 2) too small to matter, or 3) complete overkill of something you didn't really need.

 

 

 

I'd say Destiny has just as big an impact as Alpha.  You have people cheesing the Vanguard heroes fight in the Dr. Aeon SF by having the team cycle Barrier Destiny.  Clarion Destiny is a complete game changer for "squishy" characters, and can make or break Rikti mothership raids and even Hamidon raids.  Many character builds rely on the Ageless Destiny, which is a life safer for endurance starved builds, and then there's the DDR on the radial side.  Then there's Incandescence.

[Marshal_General]

To me the incarnate system shows a design flaw in the game. I shouldn't have to get to 50+3 to fix problems that have existed since level 1.

[Coyotedancer]

Beyond the mechanics of the powers and level shifts, on the "character fluff"/roleplaying side of things, the Lore is.... Not great. It's very limiting if you take it as-written. That whole business with The Well and the big, blue smurf hanging out in Ouro trying to manipulate us all.... It reminds me a lot of the Origin of Powers silliness, trying so hard to stuff each and every one of our characters into a neat little Lore box. 

 

Most of the character-focused people I've spent time with more or less completely ignore bits of the iLore. As we should, I'd argue, for exactly the same reason the Origin of Powers ought to be kicked to the curb. It's too limiting. 

 

Personally, my favorite Incarnated  character here on Homecoming isn't even an Incarnate by description or backstory. Mechanically, Kai has all the iToys and level shifts. She has multiple T4s for some slots. But as a character? Nope. Not a would-be goddess. She has nothing to do with The Well. She's just a damned good mage who's learned or created a couple of really impressive spells. And as far as she's concerned, Prometheus can get stuffed. 😝

[UltraAlt]

23 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

She has nothing to do with The Well. She's just a damned good mage who's learned or created a couple of really impressive spells. And as far as she's concerned, Prometheus can get stuffed.

 

I honestly think DCUO is a lot worse of forcing lore up on the characters.

In DCUO you aren't actually a superhero, alien, mystic being, etc., you are just a normal person infected by exobytes.

And it doesn't stop there. When someone talks about your character, they tell you that you are male, pink skinned, an earth dweller, etc. regardless of your character's gender, skin color, costuming, etc. 

 

That is one of the things that really upset me about the Incarnate system was the lore that forced "godhood" or, at least, "demigodhood" upon my character. I was playing a superhero game and not a game about becoming a demigod.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by UltraAlt
Left a -not- out of there as was tired

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't really play 50's  and I don't like the incarnate system (seems it has improved a bit over time).

 

I am thinking for some reason about what it means to be level 50 versus what it means to be Incarnate (and when that really starts).

 

Level 50 appears to be the highest level one can be a superhero.

 

Incarnate appears to start once the Alpha Slot is unlocked.

 

I'd argue that Incarnate starts, whether you like it or not, once you ding 50.  As you continue to run content, even if you don't do the Incarnate storyline, you begin earning points in the Incarnate system.  Eventually all Incarnate slots will unlock whether you use them or not, whether you run the incarnate storyline and trials or not.  I've not heard of a setting in Options where you can turn this Incarnate point-earning process off, but there would be a difference if it exists.

[Six-Six]

My head canon is:

Level 1 to 49 is my toon's journey to earning his full powers. once he dings 50, he's achieved it. To me, this means two things. One is I can keep doing missions that I've missed or join various strike forces... as how my toon was envisioned. Second, it signals the start of a new alt. Powers-wise, I prefer the slots-deprived gimped version of my toon at-level vs the exemplared 50 in running missions. to be honest, the last few levels before 50 already has me losing interest in the toon due to power creep.

Incarnate, on the other hand, is a whole new chapter/story that my toon can (but usually doesn't) step into. I'm not too fond of the Well-drinking lore and its implications on my toon's story and his powers. I rarely do incarnate trials, nor do I go through the trouble of purposely unlocking and slotting incarnates.



@Techwright are you saying that the act of unlocking an incarnate slot alone affects the toon, even without slotting it? I didn't know this.

[Techwright]

3 hours ago, Six-Six said:

 are you saying that the act of unlocking an incarnate slot alone affects the toon, even without slotting it? I didn't know this.

I apologize as I cannot say that definitively at the moment.  I'd have to run through the process again with another new 50 to refresh my memory in the details.  I did it for kicks about a year ago, and the character is fully outfitted now.  At the time I was more curious about how far it would allow me to unlock the Incarnate slots without being forced to run the Menders Incarnate story arc (all the way, it turns out) rather than focused on other details.

[Greycat]

43 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I apologize as I cannot say that definitively at the moment.

 

It doesn't. The slots unlock, but you get no effect until you do *something* with them.

 

As far as the OP, lore and whatnot -

Game-wise, I can't help but see the system (given when it was put in and how it was handled) as a "Grind to make people subscribe instead of play free" hook. Obviously not true now, but it has several remnants of that that could potentially be cleaned up (get rid of shards, we already earn Physical, Psychic, advanced, etc. IXP at the same rate now instead of having to do specific tasks for each, etc.)

 

Lore-wise, frankly, I hate the "The well is granting you power!" thing. Back before incarnates, the Well was this vague "thing" that, as I recall, just captured and eventually released (paraphrased) the "potential" of mankind. Which was fine, it allowed "ages" of heroes and not, and still left quite a bit in your hands. These days, I pretty much ignore the lore for my characters - my electric-based characters, for instance, don't need the well to tell them how to keep doing what they're doing.  Mechanically they get a little stronger at what they're doing. *shrugs* My biggest decision tends to be what lore pets to go and get, in terms of what fits the character.

 

Gamewise, I think they're a bit OP in standart content and could be toned down, but not necessarily taken away (don't have Judgement outshine a Blaster nuke, for instance.) Keep the full Incarnate power for Incarnate content - and yeah, get more Incarnate content... but not that godawful Batallion nonsense.

[Black Zot]

Incarnate lore can go to hell.  My characters have what powers they have, and the source is written in their backstory.  I pick whatever origin marker is closest to that and roll.  The Well doesn't get a say in any of it.

[Lines]

I gotta ignore the lore. The source of my characters' powers is themselves.

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Lines said:

I gotta ignore the lore. The source of my characters' powers is themselves.

Same, I have a character or two that might end up following the lore because it fits their story and/or for shiggles, but for the most part, whichever Incarnates I take on my characters are those that fit their theme and are an extension of what they are already capable of doing, just stronger.

[UltraAlt]

I think characters are sucked into the incarnates at 50 if they like it or not.

I think that they become possessed by the powers of the avatars that are making them incarnates regardless if they like it or not.

As people have said, even if you don't slot incarnate powers, the incarnate system still will unlock for you as you level up.

 

But I do enjoy seeing what other people think about it.

 

People could level lock as soon as they turn 50 and stop from leveling any further ... stop the avatars from turning them into incarnates (the incarnations of themselves).

I'm wondering if anyone does that.

 

It's already too late for the few 50's I have. They have been possessed. Should I level lock them now before the avatars get a bigger grip on them? quite possibly.

I think all the 50's I level in the future will get level locked as soon as I ding 50.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by UltraAlt

[Clave Dark 5]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:55 AM, Marshal_General said:

To me the incarnate system shows a design flaw in the game. I shouldn't have to get to 50+3 to fix problems that have existed since level 1.

Which problems?

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Which problems?

Endurance is the main one.

Too many times have I seen builds that state once you get to incarnate levels and get X, your problems will go away.

[BurtHutt]

14 hours ago, Lines said:

I gotta ignore the lore. The source of my characters' powers is themselves.

I've always said this. I really don't like being connected this way. Villains get this a bit as well by being tied to Arachnos or being under the shadow of Recluse and Arachnos and so on. Give me a break.

 

Long ago I asked that the Incarnate Lore power have some generic options or ones where you can design/customize your Lore pet. 

[Coyotedancer]

I've wished for a "Clones" option for awhile now, using the same clone tech that can make an Illusion controller's phantom army look like the caster. They'd have their own set of powers, like all the other Lore options, but would *look* like duplicates of the character. They'd be fun to fluff as "Versions of Myself from Other Times/Realities" or as actual clones, since we know those exit in the City universe. 

[EmperorSteele]

The lore of the well and gaining incarnate powers does have issues (like how the "slow path to power" is just a few hours of farming, and how the Well is granting you power because it needs strong fighters but then wants you to have to earn it...yeah ok, be stingy, have fun getting eaten, jerk!), but I'm also surprised by how many people reject it outright, like they're offended that changes to the game world and mechanics would dare affect their characters!

 

Some of y'all take your characters' backstories and your own creativity WAY too seriously. But whatevs.

[Ukase]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:55 AM, Marshal_General said:

To me the incarnate system shows a design flaw in the game. I shouldn't have to get to 50+3 to fix problems that have existed since level 1.

I'm not sure I understand you. 
Incarnate powers may fix problems a character has had, but those are problems the player has allowed to continue to exist. 

This is not a problem that existed since level 1 because of a design flaw in the game, it's a design flaw of your build.

Players should try to learn, to recognize how their character plays, and to choose powers and slots that will help the character for the next levels. 
 

As an example: DPS seems to be something most characters strive for, whether it be in pursuit of set bonuses, damage procs, global recharge, and slotting recharge within the power itself, taking hasten and other options. But they do this at the expense of slotting end mods and/or end reduction enhancements. It's a lot like chess, when you move a piece to try to gain control of the center of the board, you lose control over another portion of the board. Or, if you like - Rock, Paper, scissors. When you choose Rock, watch out for the paper. 

IOs can cover up a lot of holes in a build if you plan them properly. 


Most who PL to 50 or a certain point beyond 12 don't really notice this, but at level 8-10, a character can run sprint and even Super speed while fighting and really have no end issues, despite only having maybe a single end mod enhancement, or maybe even nothing in it. But around that time, brutes and tanks get a second armor, and begin to full the end recovery struggle. Some folks get hasten in that level range, and make the problem worse. More recharge means more attacks. Each attack uses endurance. If the end use of your attacks and toggles outpace your end recovery, again, that's not a game design flaw. It's a build design flaw. 


The invention system has a lot of IOs to assist with endurance issues. 

Similar things can be said about defense or resistance. Blasters get beat down fairly often because they think it's all about dps. And it is - but there's a balance between chaos and order, and each player should try to find their own balance between the two. (Chaos is dps, order is defense & resistance) 

[Andreah]

16 hours ago, Black Zot said:

Incarnate lore can go to hell.  My characters have what powers they have, and the source is written in their backstory.  I pick whatever origin marker is closest to that and roll.  The Well doesn't get a say in any of it.

Much as I appreciated the original Devs' attempts to do world-building that made sense, they had a tendency to try to build railroad-track justifications for everything. 

 

I had this problem with AE too. They'd built the system to be nothing more than a simulation, a temporary pretendy-world inside our persistent pretend-world, when what most roleplayers, the ones who I suppose would care the most about this, rarely ever use it like that. Within our individual and small group "head-canons", our AE missions actually happen.

 

Similarly with the powers our characters gain via the incarnate system. Perhaps some follow the railroad tracks, but most veer off it, following their own individual creative muses. 

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Andreah said:

I had this problem with AE too. They'd built the system to be nothing more than a simulation, a temporary pretendy-world inside our persistent pretend-world, when what most roleplayers, the ones who I suppose would care the most about this, rarely ever use it like that. Within our individual and small group "head-canons", our AE missions actually happen.

 

Side comment on this as I disagree. Yes AE was designed with a lore concept in mind to give it a reason to exist within the confines of the game, but there was never any doubt in the development team's mind that it would be used as a doorway to the creative needs of the player-base in order for them to create the stories they wanted to share, and live them. The approval of some of the top ranking stories were even considered "canon" by some when they got the Dev approval mark.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Endurance is the main one.

Too many times have I seen builds that state once you get to incarnate levels and get X, your problems will go away.

 

That's because they're designing builds in a way that forces the use of incarnate powers to fix end woes. Back before incarnates, we'd build specifically to handle the endurance cost. Now it's "to hell with build balance before 50, just grab ageless and use a different build for exemplaring or just never do it."

[Coyotedancer]

Since I tend to run my 50s at all kinds of levels with the family SG, I still build to be fairly energy-efficent without the iToys... but old habits die hard, Even without the Wolfepack, I never really stopped doing that on at least some level. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Coyotedancer