Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Crysis]

9 hours ago, Krimson said:

Are we making sure that builds are mostly even with regards to enhancement cost and the like? My billion INF Tanker is pretty nifty, but would a 500 million INF Tanker stack up against a 500 million INF Brute?

Realistically, any comparison should be made around min/max builds.  Minimum spend and effort required for maximum output.  I mean I can spend a billion on a Sentinel but it’s never going to compete against even a Brute at half that cost.

[Neiska]

This patch sure has brought out the best in people and the forums. 😆

But yea, this patch sure has affected some ATs more than others.

[roleki]

3 hours ago, Neiska said:

This patch sure has brought out the best in people and the forums. 😆

But yea, this patch sure has affected some ATs more than others.

P4 definitely seems to have ramped up the forum PvP. 

 

Personally, I think the reports of the demise of the Brute are greatly exaggerated, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the overall sense that the game is regressing towards the "good old days" when Tanks were the center of the universe and nothing could be accomplished without one.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 hours ago, Sovera said:

Are you going to do Bill's thing of becoming upset when I mention this mechanic we all know of? Do you have any other example that is not SS at least?

 

Uncalled for and you know it. Followup also benefits tank/scrap/stalk more than brutes. So does AAO. You're projecting and need to quit it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

This patch sure has brought out the best in people and the forums. 😆

But yea, this patch sure has affected some ATs more than others.

 

And there's the other reason I've been posting and playing less and less.

[Luminara]

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And there's the other reason I've been posting and playing less and less.

 

[Luminara]

21 minutes ago, Krimson said:

If we're going to be devoid of compassion, might as well double down. No sense in any pretense of a friendly community, right?

 

It's a movie quote expressing a belief that @Bill Z Bubba will always be with us, even if his posting and play time decrease.  Sorry the stick up your ass made it difficult for you to grasp that.

[The_Warpact]

This thread is delicious...like popcorn. P4 has indeed brought out the drama like never before.

 

I equate it to getting older...we just bitch more about everything, maybe we should sprinkle some politics in it to really get this bonfire going.

 

😉

[Bill Z Bubba]

44 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

This thread is delicious...like popcorn. P4 has indeed brought out the drama like never before.

 

I equate it to getting older...we just bitch more about everything, maybe we should sprinkle some politics in it to really get this bonfire going.

 

😉

 

That would be bad. And we'd all get banned. But, yea, it's no surprise. As mentioned before, the vast majority of us are here for nostalgia of days long past and the game has become something much changed. Many of the changes are downright stupid but that started long before the snap. Couple that with the world going to complete shit all around us, it's really no surprise so many of us are on edge and lash out at the slightest hint of provocation.

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That would be bad. And we'd all get banned. But, yea, it's no surprise. As mentioned before, the vast majority of us are here for nostalgia of days long past and the game has become something much changed. Many of the changes are downright stupid but that started long before the snap. Couple that with the world going to complete shit all around us, it's really no surprise so many of us are on edge and lash out at the slightest hint of provocation.

Uh.  Isn't that the POINT of Brutes?

"HI!  Good morniIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!*

*RARGH!!!!*

 

[Snarky]

9 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It's a movie quote expressing a belief that @Bill Z Bubba will always be with us, even if his posting and play time decrease.  Sorry the stick up your ass made it difficult for you to grasp that.

Actually I too have mostly moved on.  While there are small groups of people interwoven into the CoH fabric that are literally some of the best gamers there is also….WoW creep.   On the boards, in game channels, PUG groups.   Maybe its not one thing but a combo of factors but the overall experience started to fray pretty bad for me.  I am an old vampire with little patience for fools.  As upthread when someone was literally telling people to get better while stating he was not doing that. (My interpretation, read for yourself).  I am just done.   So now I am off solo questing a mega big box game on one toon.  Hopefully be done in six months.  Crap there are a ton of zones lol.    I will, as now, peek in from time to time.  I do one or two CoH SG events each week as well.  But….  The last few threads I started felt like teaching high school logic to people staring out the window.  I can handle flames, i love sarcasm, disagree with me, tell me why, please educate me, but for the love of Lord Recluse do not be stupid

[Erratic1]

21 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Actually I too have mostly moved on.  While there are small groups of people interwoven into the CoH fabric that are literally some of the best gamers there is also….WoW creep.   On the boards, in game channels, PUG groups.   Maybe its not one thing but a combo of factors but the overall experience started to fray pretty bad for me.  I am an old vampire with little patience for fools.  As upthread when someone was literally telling people to get better while stating he was not doing that. (My interpretation, read for yourself).  I am just done.   So now I am off solo questing a mega big box game on one toon.  Hopefully be done in six months.  Crap there are a ton of zones lol.    I will, as now, peek in from time to time.  I do one or two CoH SG events each week as well.  But….  The last few threads I started felt like teaching high school logic to people staring out the window.  I can handle flames, i love sarcasm, disagree with me, tell me why, please educate me, but for the love of Lord Recluse do not be stupid

 

For me it is more like the tides...ebb and flow. Sometimes I am playing CoH and sometimes I am playing something more modern. 

 

I am deeply into character building. Hook me with your mechanics and the ability to meaningfully craft a character and I am in whole hog. The problem of modern, multiplayer games (not the only type of game I play but heavily represented) is they all want to monopolize your time with necessary activities you need to be doing on schedule or your character advancement stalls. Do the story arc, play in the pvp grounds, join the raids, do the daily quests, do the weekly quests, harvest the resources to upgrade your equipment and make sure you do all that daily/weekly/pvp stuff you do not love (or even like) or else do not get ahead. Toss in an unhealthy dollop of RNG in getting what you need (resources/equipment) and it quickly becomes a job.

 

I have a job. I am playing the game as a means of relaxing from that job. I do not need another.

 

So when I hit that stage of being sick of the new game, I return to CoH. Yeah, it has its resources, but I can short circuit some of that if I choose by buying stuff with currency I get for just playing the game. The game even encourages not playing the character (rest xp) so encourages me to make more characters unlike games described above where every extra character requires even more time dedicated to daily/weekly/pvp/battleground/raid/etc.  It probably helps that I have a greater tolerance for inefficiency from other players than most. Unless someone is sabotaging my game play, I am pretty easy about wiping a few times (or more, like in that 2-man DFB I did a month or two back).

[Infinitum]

Before the Tanker buff it was a very popular topic get to report how they had no use on a team, Brutes can do everything a Tanker can do with more damage etc - at least 2 or 3 a week.

 

I think everyone that keeps coming back to this cremated equine is that perhaps Brutes being where they were was slightly overkill and tankers slightly below where they needed to be.  Now they are both equivalent with one favoring damage more - one mitigation but both good and both useful to tools in any event.

 

And this isn't a gut gud statement here - but maybe alter your tactics to suit your needs with a changing game - your damage mongering Brute may not be able to wade aimlessly into every situation without a strategy or a more mitigation based build now - just like with my energy Aura and invul characters I have to prioritize certain targets now - otherwise they could cause an issue to me.

 

Things change - we have to adapt, sometimes it is irritating - but usually not the end of the world - and also usually we learn a thing or 2 that makes us better.

 

Having said all of that - if the Brute ATO didn't suck now with fury being self maintaining - I think Redesigning the Brute ATO would go a long way here to making it feel better.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Infinitum

[ShardWarrior]

21 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And there's the other reason I've been posting and playing less and less.

 

I am not far behind you on that point for sure. 

[Neiska]

8 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I am not far behind you on that point for sure. 

 

Same here. For reasons I won't go into, I don't want it to become yet another flame war. Summarized - I feel less and less welcome. Punished even. In my head I know that isn't the case, but its certainly how it feels.

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Before the Tanker buff it was a very popular topic get to report how they had no use on a team, Brutes can do everything a Tanker can do with more damage etc - at least 2 or 3 a week.

 

 

Did the Tanker buff improve Tanker survivability? No, it did not. So no, Brutes could not do everything a Tanker could do. Repeatedly in this thread, people who say everything is fine assert that Tankers surviving is their thing (and note this thread was stated about Brutes not surviving). And on a team, while Brutes can be buffed (as can a lot of Scrappers), that really depends on the makeup of the team. A Tanker just doesn't care and so they fit regardless of team composition. And more the lie that Brutes could do everything a Tanker could because when I invite lowbies to join me they occasionally get killed because aggro control is weaker on Brutes (and I forget until it happens that I need to be more proactive in protecting them until that first death).

 

All of the analytical skill at spinning how Brutes "are fine" really should not have missed how Tankers are better at survival and aggro management.

 

 

If the matter were all about teams then what should have happened was a buff to Tanker damage cap as that would have paralleled Brutes having the resistance cap of Tanks but needing a team to reach it when using SOs or needing to spend more slots and using set bonuses with IOs. But path not taken.

 

As for "more mitigation based build" every single brute I have has invested more slots and set bonuses to survival than they have damage. Because if you do not do that you're playing a Scrapper with slightly more health. You take Tough and Weave, not to mule but for their actual effect. Your damage sets are picked not for "Damage Bonus" but for what protection/health/regen they offer. My most effective brute's attacks are primarily filled with Kinetic Combat sets because it gives defense while consuming the fewest slots. His area damage abilities are mostly three-slotted with Erradication because he needed the Energy/Negative defense and did not have the slots after covering staying alive to fill them in other ways.

 

By contrast, my Tankers almost never take Tough or Weave, and when they do it is for muling mostly, and certainly not because I plan to wring more power effect from them. Damage slots are plentiful. Heck, even my Epic power choices get a lot of slots.

 

So just how much more are you suggesting Brutes invest in staying alive? Maybe not bothering to even slot their attacks?

 

 

[The_Warpact]

@Erratic1 you actually brought up a point I was thinking of. I can use tough/Weave on a tanker just mule proc. On Broots I need tough/Weave to survive, especially pushing the envelope on the harder content.

 

I was a die hard broot fan, now I have 3 broots all farmers. I run all tankers now, and use stalkers instead of scrappers. It falls to survival, Tanks should be unstoppable with so-so damage, broots should have great survivability but damage is higher that pushes through anything, scrappers less survival able but crit to make it up, and stalkers of course stealth and AS.

 

Even my wife who is known in our VG for being at the forefront of any battle on a broot, has her first tanker that's in the 20s now. Because, the survivability makes up for the less damage. 

 

Broots need damage, fury, whatever fixed to compete as the opposite of what a tank is. If we didn't have access of bouncing back and forth so freely and ATs locked on each side broots would be the least played with hard mode.

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Did the Tanker buff improve Tanker survivability? No, it did not. So no, Brutes could not do everything a Tanker could do.

 

They most certainly could - for 99% of the content - I would routinely Tank the task force with my Brute's with far greater damage output prior to the Tanker update patch.  For extreme situations I would simply switch my hybrid to melee core and my destiny to barrier - or rebirth radial - then rotate them - sure I gave up damage and recharge but with that any brute can do what a tanker can.  But there is a tradeoff to it - you literally can't and shouldn't be able to do both.

54 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Repeatedly in this thread, people who say everything is fine assert that Tankers surviving is their thing (and note this thread was stated about Brutes not surviving).

 

That all depends on the build - and the strategy - did you miss my line about page 4 dinging a few of my invul tankers hard - hard enough to where I had to adapt both my build and my strategy.  It wasn't just Brute's that were affected.

 

55 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

All of the analytical skill at spinning how Brutes "are fine" really should not have missed how Tankers are better at survival and aggro management.

 

Brute's can still manage aggro just fine solo - and if paired or teamed with a tanker - will still be just fine - it doesn't have to manage aggro then.  Tankers should be better at aggro management and survival.  Brutes still do more dmg.

58 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So just how much more are you suggesting Brutes invest in staying alive? Maybe not bothering to even slot their attacks?

 

Not sure - would need to see the builds - my Brutes aren't having a hard time surviving - and still out damage my tankers - but there again my tankers can do more silly survival stuff my Brutes can not - but once you hit a certain mitigation value all of that is overkill except for hard mode situations anyway - and even there with the right team the Brute's can still do what the silly tanker build can do AND output more damage.

[Infinitum]

49 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Broots need damage, fury, whatever fixed to compete as the opposite of what a tank is. If we didn't have access of bouncing back and forth so freely and ATs locked on each side broots would be the least played with hard mode.

 

I think the damage is fine, but both ATOs should be updated and revised - 1 to focus on damage and 1 to focus on mitigation.

[The_Warpact]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

I think the damage is fine, but both ATOs should be updated and revised - 1 to focus on damage and 1 to focus on mitigation.

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

[Erratic1]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

They most certainly could - for 99% of the content - I would routinely Tank the task force with my Brute's with far greater damage output prior to the Tanker update patch.  For extreme situations I would simply switch my hybrid to melee core and my destiny to barrier - or rebirth radial - then rotate them - sure I gave up damage and recharge but with that any brute can do what a tanker can.  But there is a tradeoff to it - you literally can't and shouldn't be able to do both.

 

TFs are the content where unless you have a significantly full team, you don't run. Teaming encompasses down to two man, and two-man TFs are rare short of IO set overloaded gods flexing. That two-man team I ran last night on my Brute ran at +0x0 whereas my last Talker at the same level was soloing +2x4 content. The Brute had fo rest every 2-3 pulls for health (or after a single pull if multiple oranges or a red was involved) even baked by an Emparhy corruptor.

 

On a full team a Scrapper can serve the alpha absorption role and after that, who cares who is on the team? 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That all depends on the build - and the strategy - did you miss my line about page 4 dinging a few of my invul tankers hard - hard enough to where I had to adapt both my build and my strategy.  It wasn't just Brute's that were affected.

 

 

Oh, you forced to take and slot Tough/Weave? The horrors! Brutes have been there, done that.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Brute's can still manage aggro just fine solo - and if paired or teamed with a tanker - will still be just fine - it doesn't have to manage aggro then.  Tankers should be better at aggro management and survival.  Brutes still do more dmg.

 

A later team last night with two Brutes and still the occasional  non-Brute death. Granted that was after the leader declared the team was blowing through +3x8 too quickly and upped things to +4x8. Who knows...maybe those other AT players were feeling suicidal?

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Not sure - would need to see the builds - my Brutes aren't having a hard time surviving - and still out damage my tankers - but there again my tankers can do more silly survival stuff my Brutes can not - but once you hit a certain mitigation value all of that is overkill except for hard mode situations anyway - and even there with the right team the Brute's can still do what the silly tanker build can do AND output more damage.

 

I find it interesting I can reference Tankers clearing content faster than Brutes and that gets pooh-poohed as a result of the properly chosen powersets for that to occur but there are seemingly no powersets brutes can take to reach equal time (while surviving) nor equal Tanker survivability.

 

What is your reference for Brutes being fine other than feeling it?

 

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

Seems to me most of the, "Brutes fine" crowd only ever show up in the Brute subforum to naysay anything changing for Brutes, otherwise most of their existence is off discussing an AT which has a reason for existence.

[Snarky]

Thank you Erratic.  Right on point as far as I see.  Brutes just keep getting further marginalized.  The Fury change and Alignment switching were both hard hits to the AT,  but every Dev decision since then (in my opinion) further erodes the special place Brutes held.  I seriously think I could play a Sentinel more effectively at 50 incarnate content for survivability and damage than a Brute.   Because even though the damage and survival factors are less you can mitigate survival issues with tactics and do as much or more damage because you are not dodging damage patches and mechanics.  The Brute AT is just ugly now unfortunately. 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

 

Tankers were pretty miserable to solo before. I do not have a problem with the changes for the AT (could have given them the Defender treatment but oh well). 

 

It is not a matter of Brute vs Tanker but rather where does the Brute fit and is their play fulfilling/worthwhile on the whole.

 

If you are only ever reaching for your Brute to farm with, don't tell me brutes are fine. (Generic you there.)

Edited August 29, 2022 by Erratic1

[The_Warpact]

20 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If you are only ever reaching for your Brute to farm with, don't tell me it is. (Generic you there.)

Say what? You lost me.

[Erratic1]

@Snarky, I have two brutes I am currently levelling. The Savage Melee/Electrical Armor, because I want to try to wring as much out of Savage and DoTs as possible, and there StJ/Inv because I had never played up StJ before and had no current Inv characters. They are enjoyable in the abstract as they work their way to final form and improve but...

 

SM/Elec s never going to be as tough as other pairings of powersets. I worry about how survivable he will be in the end and am certain it will be less than the DM/Elec I had on Live or the SS/Bio who is my pride and joy as goes Btutes. The StJ/Inv should be incredible as goes surviving, but he is going to be very pricey--at least twice what went into SS/Bio and maybe more. While I enjoy levelling them, they feel like chores with questionable payoff.

 

By contrast, WM/Nin scrapper is a constant set of joy whose end I look forward to.