Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[The_Warpact]

7 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

So, which server IS the best server then?

 

If you don't have an answer to that (or if it winds up being HC anyway) then your point, as logical as it may be in general, falls flat on its face.

It falls to opinion then. Most people as Frostbiter was alluding to would see population meaning best.

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

In another example: Farming.

 

Last night for fun, I brought my main Elec/Kin Corr (also my Monster Hunter) into a fire farm to see how I could handle the new aggro. I only bring her into Smashing/Lethal and Fire farms to show off, like for instance the time Brigg was on the team. I can solo farm +4/x8 all I want, better than some Brutes. It's an AWESOME experience. But I also don't do it very often, because all that clicking becomes painful. After 40 minutes, my hands are throbbing. But wow is it fun. More fun than running my Tanker. But... when I play my Tanker I can do stuff like... chat with people. 

Off Topic 

 

Have you ever posted anything or a guide on your build. You've referenced it twice and now I want to know how it works.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

 From what I see, it's the very poor attitude toward anyone who questions changes and the reasons given for them 

I have to agree. My biggest problem with this issue so far has been a lack of transparency. I'm left to connect the dots, as it were. Being told by this player or that, but no word from an HC dev as to why this, or why that. 

Perhaps I'm unrealistic to want to know the whys and wherefores. Volunteer staff, etc.
I did finally get one word from a GM about something rather sinister that I had no idea about, but I would have thought they would have led with it, instead of me feeling like I had to kick and drag someone screaming to get some explanation about it. 

I think there's a number of players who have names I recognize as just players that are GMs on the sly - that is, it's not common knowledge, or not known by me that they're GMs. And they state things and others know they're GMs, so the other players back what they say, but I'm here not knowing they're GMs, and I occasionally call to question certain things I don't understand - and attract some negative attention because of it. 
On the one hand, I completely understand why some folks hate the idea of AFK farming. But on the other hand, so what? Anyone can do it if they want to, so there's no advantage anyone has over anyone else. The barrier to entry is the same barrier we all have/had. We're all different people and have found different ways to enjoy the game. But they've clearly put afk farming in the crosshairs - at least temporarily. It won't be long now until a build comes up that will allow afk-ers to do what they did before. 

I remember when they seeded salvage. GM Jimmy or some other GM wrote a post about why. And it made sense. 

But a lot of the changes I've seen don't make sense to me. 

To be fair, some changes in the past made no sense to me then, but they make sense now. So, I'm hoping that time will make some of these things make more sense. 

Like the prismatic Aethers. I think they're a wasted currency, but the jury is still out. Maybe it was a good move. We'll see, I guess. 

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

I'm not sure I would blame it on side switching or incarnates.  From what I see, it's the very poor attitude toward anyone who questions changes and the reasons given for them and who aren't heaping praise and adoration on the people doing the coding.  Anyone who offers a different opinion is shouted at and told they're wrong or whatever. 

And anyone who likes changes is told they’re a cheerleader or a shill or “heaping praise and adoration”. All smears but that’s the forums for you.

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

It falls to opinion then. Most people as Frostbiter was alluding to would see population meaning best.

Torchbearer is the best server. It was the first publicly available City of Heroes server to come up and stay up after The Snap. (RIP Bree server)

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I think that, like anything, where we are depends on how we got where we are.  Today, there are different parties with different motives and agendas that there was a decade ago.

 

And that's cool.  Since the code is now available, if not strictly legally available, there is nothing to stop anyone with the desire and the knowledge of the code to reprogram and launch a version of CoX that meets their specific requirements.

 

Personally, I'm happy enough to let other people manage this version, since it is in no way in my best interests in terms of time or effort or whatever for me to launch my own server.

Where can I find this code? I mean seriously. People say it's out there. I've never seen it. 

[EmperorSteele]

6 minutes ago, Astralock said:

 

There is no best server.

 

...in Ba Sing Se?

 

But for real, if we're going to point at HCs problems and say "it's not the best server ", then there's an implication that other servers do these objectively better AND that there IS such a thing as a "best server". If there's truly no such thing as a best server, then, why bring it up at all?

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Where can I find this code? I mean seriously. People say it's out there. I've never seen it. 

 

I jut googled and found it on reddit within three seconds.  It will probably take longer than that to download.

 

EDIT:  also plenty of stuff on youtube

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Yomo Kimyata

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

But for real, if we're going to point at HCs problems and say "it's not the best server ", then there's an implication that other servers do these objectively better AND that there IS such a thing as a "best server".

 

Each of them have something unique that sets them apart other servers.  The costume editor on Rebirth as an example is vastly superior to any other server.  New Dawn opening up signature power sets and freeform characters are unique and interesting options.  Homecoming modernizing the back-end code sets the foundation for future longevity. 

 

Personally, I think it a shame the development community is so fractured.

[Astralock]

14 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Where can I find this code? I mean seriously. People say it's out there. I've never seen it. 

Here you go.  You will need a BitTorrent client and 7-Zip or Bandizip.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

 

Out of bounds (ing)

[SeraphimKensai]

9 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I jut googled and found it on reddit within three seconds.  It will probably take longer than that to download.

 

EDIT:  also plenty of stuff on youtube

 

It's reasonably easy to make your own server following the ourodev guides, mind you they are resource intensive. I made one as a backup so to speak in the event that all these pirate servers disappear and I get the itch to wear spandex when I'm 60.

[The_Warpact]

1 minute ago, SeraphimKensai said:

It's reasonably easy to make your own server following the ourodev guides, mind you they are resource intensive. I made one as a backup so to speak in the event that all these pirate servers disappear and I get the itch to wear spandex when I'm 60.

I've thought about it, just not tech savvy enough to do it.

[Herotu]

4 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

First, spoiler alert this is my opinion based on what I see and/or hear. Agree or disagree it makes no difference to me.

 

A common mistake I see, maybe others do as well are the mistakes Live devs created that continue into the future. Which I think has led to our current dilemma(s).

 

Namely "Going Rogue" and "Incarnates", there should have never been the ability to go back and forth for the ATs, this has created issues between the melee classes because of how close they are. Where do the different ATs fit in? Currently Tanks are the meta, scrappers and stalkers are close with only differences in stealth and crits really defining them, and brutes well they are lost in all this.

 

At least with the other classes, the exceptions being Veats/HEATS, they are opposites, Controllers are control plus buffs/debuffs, dominator are control and damage. Same can be said of corrs/fenders, and sentinel are just the red headed step children of blasters. Yes, yes, I know some of you like your sents but seriously they need some love.

Masterminds...well we are going to get to them.

 

Incarnates, you see every comic book, DragonBall, and the TV show like Supernatural always think you have to go bigger and badder with things. While this might appeal to some, in this case it was a mistake and continues to be so. This whole route has just led to a host of issues in the balance department and I'm sure in game development. Hard mode created for the specific involvement of incarnate abilities is just a way to compensate for the stuff that the live devs unloaded.

If you hadn't noticed the live devs made alot of bad decisions on game development and its future or lack thereof in their case. Which in turn has forced players regardless of AT although some more than others (namely Mastermind) to jump through hoops, become unplayable, or use a blend of ATs to create the ability to win this new hard mode.

 

Minus, the content, stories are great, ASF is one of my favorites, the new Halloween stuff, IO sets, etc all great stuff and I enjoy it.

But, this continuing path of forcing players to use incarnates abilities to win is just garbage. 

It's the main reason I quit the first time.

 

The focus is lost on great game play and teams when steamrolling, leagues, and making sure team composition is specific classes and everyone has to have incarnate abilities to succeed. It's not fun.

 

This is where the current devs are, I think the mistakes of the live devs have forced HC devs down a path that is just getting worse.

I think the live devs instead of doing Going Rogue at least the going back and forth part should have been dumped and the focus should have been on co-op zones, fixing current issues, and grinding out better content aka missions, TFs/SFs, etc. This in turn would have canceled the incarnate grind and put the focus on good challenging content with new items, costumes, IOs, and quite possibly powersets and ATs.

 

Goldside is a ghost town, redside is hardly better namely because the ATs don't have to stay where they should be at.

 

I have no easy answer on how to proceed, but, when I see the people way back then who I learned from and looked to for advice no longer playing or scaling it back so much that they only play for special events. Then I know something is seriously wrong.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

The following is my opinion, if you disagree, please be respectful.

 

I agree with nearly all of your post, but I'm not sure I agree that the proposed alternative would retain players in a commercial version of the game. Unless, it came thick and fast, which I believe AE allows us to do.

 

I think allowing people to switch teams is a shame because it means nearly everybody ends up on blue, to be with other players - it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. An inescapable spiral. It's somewhat disappointing, I have to say, especially when you can do so with minimal effort. I understand convenience is a wonderful thing, but the story of your character is marred by Null-the-Gull - when you should be doing dastardly things in order to become a villain. It should BE a story not a light switch. And I get it, I don't HAVE to use the seagull, but when it's THERE... it's just there - all you do it press a thing. It's too tempting, especially if the other method feels like a chore. 

 

Regarding Incarnates

I think the NCSoft watched WoW with envious eyes and drooling jowls. I'm not going to say they were told what to do, but the Paragon devs tried to implement open world Raid-Like content. I can't say it's a bad idea - it's the meat and drink of Guild Wars 2 even today, but I don't get a kick out of it at all. Pressing 1111 whilst watching some feet/tentacles - it's a bit on the lame side, even when it's Lusca. Sorry Lusca.

 

... and you can see what the players would have said if the story kept going along the lines of "help <Legendary NPC> do a thing". It would be nonsense along the lines of "this story isn't about me". Because when you're top-tier you expect to be their equivalent, not their lacky anymore.

 

[Ruin Mage]

Forum cop comes to ruin this thread.

Jokes aside, my take is the following;

Homecoming does deliver a City of Heroes that is advancing. Does everyone agree with it? Absolutely not and that's fine. Developers, paid and volunteer, make choices that not everyone agrees with. This is the nature of being human - you will not agree with everything done at all times. I don't particularly agree at times with how the power devs swing with their changes for example.

I think of the servers available, HC offers a more "we make sure it works, that the jank isn't visible, and that it makes sense at least to us." approach - because you can't expect or ask them to make it make sense to us. We just play here and this is their server. This is the same for Rebirth, New Dawn, or others - that server is the dev's server at the end of the day. Nothing entitles us to anything in regards to HC despite some occasional claim otherwise.

Now would it be nice if they took tidbits from the suggestions & feedback forum? Selectively, yes. Wholesale? Abso-fucking-lutey NOT. There are some really backwards ideas out there regarding how devs putting time into their own ideas is bad. Things can and should be cherry picked as they please, as All Ideas are Not Made Equal. For example, the idea of doing new servers with alternate rulesets is not a good idea. Why? The manpower and resources needed to manage and set that sort of thing up is not, to my understanding, any snap-of-the-finger task.

Where as suggestions to bring certain power sets up to par with later releases? Fuck yeah. Lets see modern revamps of Ancient Sets or sets that just have no identity in the face of others.

I'm part of the Gold Standard Discord [Which is an open invite somewhere around here] and the vibe I personally get is that these devs actually care about health of the game - though maybe not the health some vocal folks want. Sure that doesn't align with everyone's vision. Sure, they may not be bringing out what everyone possibly wants but then that's nigh impossible. There are enough dissenting/differing opinion on things that you can't just listen to the community and call it a day. Most of us don't know how the code works, how game balance works, or such - plenty of us would make terrible developers on our own.

HC pushes the boundaries for changes too - a lot of these things it does is nutty that I've not seen other servers do without massive drawback or hyper-jank. I personally believe in a good future with Homecoming - one where people will eventually see their favorite underperforming set get some love. One where we get new content like the Wharf stuff (without the Batallion shit, please and thank you) and where Hard Mode continues to grow and be proliferated.
 

---

I think population is going to wax and wane. People will dislike changes. People will not have the time anymore. It happens and there's no real victory in trying to chase the ever eternal  Retention Problems. We are the most populous Rogue Server / Private Server that, in my humble opinion, does it best out of the options. We'll always be here until donations cease, the head honchos get tired, or NCSoft goes "bye, binch." -- these things should allow people to be more chill rather than screaming about waste of time, "shitty" changes that aren't personally tested by the person calling them shitty, or anything else that seems rather silly to get worked up over.

Yare yare daze.

[Ukase]

18 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Here you go.  You will need a BitTorrent client and 7-Zip or Bandizip.

 

This is what I see. 
Thanks, though. 

 

[Frostbiter]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

 

This is what I see. 
Thanks, though. 

 

 

That's normal with peer to peer file transfer services. The antivirus service just blankets the seeds with the same warnings.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Frostbiter

[The_Warpact]

15 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Snipt

Correct I do believe things have become too convenient.

 

7 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Snipt

I agree with you on several points. It isn't "our" server, hence they do what they want. I also think at this rate they won't be able to generate enough content to satisfy most. Especially in regards to content that's done to death. Which once again back to the "wax and wane".

 

I guess more transparency or maybe a weekly "dev talk" would be helpful and probably help keep things to a minimum. But seeing some of these forum Savages in action would probably just drive them back into seclusion. 

[The_Warpact]

20 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

"shitty" changes that aren't personally tested by the person calling them shitty, or anything else that seems rather silly to get worked up over.

One other thing I missed. If you don't like it why didn't you hop on beta to try to change it crowd. 

But, seeing how the emps to merit death knell turned out, I can sorta understand it.

Edited August 30, 2022 by The_Warpact
Forgot something

[Ruin Mage]

The forums are a Savage Raid from FFXIV. I wouldn't blame em for not doing Dev Insights/Talks.

 

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

A common mistake I see, maybe others do as well are the mistakes Live devs created that continue into the future. Which I think has led to our current dilemma(s).

 

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

They're doing their best.  There were things which didn't thrill me in this update.  There were things I didn't notice or care about in past updates.  This extends to the 7 years I spent playing on the original servers.  But I've learned to expect that with every update, in every game.  Do I agree with every decision they make?  Shit, no.  But I also don't disagree with every decision they make, because even the ones I don't like are intended to make the game better in some way.  That's all they're really trying to do, make the game better.  Where the problem you see arises is how your definition of "better" may differ from theirs.

Co* isn't perfect.  It launched with serious design flaws and oversights, some of which still haunt us today.  It's never been well balanced and probably never will be.  And right now, the HC team appears to be going wild, buffing this and buffing that and everything seems like it's spiraling out of control.  But they have a game plan (pun intended).  They have a goal.  They have a direction.  They understand that they can't balance anything if there are massive disparities between things which are supposed to be similar.  So before they can start grab a level and start working on balance, they have to either bring the over-performers down (which would incite mass riots), or bring the under-performers up.  We have a lot more over-performers than under-performers at the moment, but that's because they've been whittling away at the under-performers for three years.

 

Would you, honestly, have even considered taking a pre-I27 Trick Arrows anything along on a Hard Mode run?  Or even a basic Incarnate trial?  Honestly?  I wouldn't, and I've got more experience with TA under my belt than anyone else here.  That's what they're addressing now.  They're maybe halfway finished.  Maybe.  Still a lot of work to do before it all starts to come together, but it will come together.  We will get there.

 

In the meantime, make your own challenges.  Stop playing hyper-powerful builds.  Play Kinetic Melee.  Play a petless mastermind or dominator.  Play something that isn't easy mode, there's a lot of it still in the game.  You're the author of your experience with this game.  Or leave.  Go, play on a server without HC's changes.  Whatever makes you happy.  Me, I'll be right here, enjoying the ever-loving fuck out of the game for as long as I can, because I had to live through two Snaps.  The first when I quit in 2011 and longed for it every day until I decided to come back, and the second in 2013, when I tried to come back and discovered that it was gone.  I don't care what the HC team does at this point, I'm not going through that again.  I'll be here until they drag me away, kicking, screaming, biting and flailing wildly.  The HC team isn't going to meet my expectations every time they do something, and that's fine, because I'm looking three years down the road, not at tomorrow, not at yesterday, and I see it all falling into place.  I'm willing to wait, to put up with annoyances, to have faith.

 

That said, I'm also not the kind of player who soloes GMs and AVs, or who builds anything to do so.  That shit takes too fucking long.  I know because I did it a long, long time ago, when I thought I had something to prove.  I did it with SOs.  I did it with a 0.55 melee damage modifier and no Damage enhancements in my attacks.  II did it without status protection.  I'm quite content, now, to take the lazy approach of making builds to play +1/x5 at 50+ and just run around kicking the crap out of minions, lieutenants and regular bosses.  I'm happy that the game has finally reached the point of allowing me to do that without feeling like I'm pushing a boulder up a hill.  Fuck the days of scrounging and scraping to afford a single purple IO.  To hell with feeling lucky to have one reasonably kitted out character.  Not being able to make a Greco-Roman character at level 1, or having to grind for weeks to unlock content, or being forced to team in order to make any Incarnate progress can bite my perfect little ass.  I'll take a game that allows me to build what I want and not struggle over a "challenge" any day of the week.  I can make my own challenges and keep the game fresh for myself, I don't need imposed poverty and arbitrary, senseless restrictions to do it for me.

 

But that's me.  You want something else, and that's cool, too.  Just don't disappear forever, because you still have friends here.

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

They're doing their best.  There were things which didn't thrill me in this update.  There were things I didn't notice or care about in past updates.  This extends to the 7 years I spent playing on the original servers.  But I've learned to expect that with every update, in every game.  Do I agree with every decision they make?  Shit, no.  But I also don't disagree with every decision they make, because even the ones I don't like are intended to make the game better in some way.  That's all they're really trying to do, make the game better.  Where the problem you see arises is how your definition of "better" may differ from theirs.

Co* isn't perfect.  It launched with serious design flaws and oversights, some of which still haunt us today.  It's never been well balanced and probably never will be.  And right now, the HC team appears to be going wild, buffing this and buffing that and everything seems like it's spiraling out of control.  But they have a game plan (pun intended).  They have a goal.  They have a direction.  They understand that they can't balance anything if there are massive disparities between things which are supposed to be similar.  So before they can start grab a level and start working on balance, they have to either bring the over-performers down (which would incite mass riots), or bring the under-performers up.  We have a lot more over-performers than under-performers at the moment, but that's because they've been whittling away at the under-performers for three years.

 

Would you, honestly, have even considered taking a pre-I27 Trick Arrows anything along on a Hard Mode run?  Or even a basic Incarnate trial?  Honestly?  I wouldn't, and I've got more experience with TA under my belt than anyone else here.  That's what they're addressing now.  They're maybe halfway finished.  Maybe.  Still a lot of work to do before it all starts to come together, but it will come together.  We will get there.

 

In the meantime, make your own challenges.  Stop playing hyper-powerful builds.  Play Kinetic Melee.  Play a petless mastermind or dominator.  Play something that isn't easy mode, there's a lot of it still in the game.  You're the author of your experience with this game.  Or leave.  Go, play on a server without HC's changes.  Whatever makes you happy.  Me, I'll be right here, enjoying the ever-loving fuck out of the game for as long as I can, because I had to live through two Snaps.  The first when I quit in 2011 and longed for it every day until I decided to come back, and the second in 2013, when I tried to come back and discovered that it was gone.  I don't care what the HC team does at this point, I'm not going through that again.  I'll be here until they drag me away, kicking, screaming, biting and flailing wildly.  The HC team isn't going to meet my expectations every time they do something, and that's fine, because I'm looking three years down the road, not at tomorrow, not at yesterday, and I see it all falling into place.  I'm willing to wait, to put up with annoyances, to have faith.

 

That said, I'm also not the kind of player who soloes GMs and AVs, or who builds anything to do so.  That shit takes too fucking long.  I know because I did it a long, long time ago, when I thought I had something to prove.  I did it with SOs.  I did it with a 0.55 melee damage modifier and no Damage enhancements in my attacks.  II did it without status protection.  I'm quite content, now, to take the lazy approach of making builds to play +1/x5 at 50+ and just run around kicking the crap out of minions, lieutenants and regular bosses.  I'm happy that the game has finally reached the point of allowing me to do that without feeling like I'm pushing a boulder up a hill.  Fuck the days of scrounging and scraping to afford a single purple IO.  To hell with feeling lucky to have one reasonably kitted out character.  Not being able to make a Greco-Roman character at level 1, or having to grind for weeks to unlock content, or being forced to team in order to make any Incarnate progress can bite my perfect little ass.  I'll take a game that allows me to build what I want and not struggle over a "challenge" any day of the week.  I can make my own challenges and keep the game fresh for myself, I don't need imposed poverty and arbitrary, senseless restrictions to do it for me.

 

But that's me.  You want something else, and that's cool, too.  Just don't disappear forever, because you still have friends here.

I could be my usual self and post something that would make you hiss at me. 

Instead I'll say thanks and appreciate your meaningful response. 

 

It is a very high probability that am indeed in need of a break, these forums, some of the people, being so heavily vested in P4, some of the fallout, and some things that I just don't like are just grating on my nerves. Looking into things too much and taking it too personally. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

21 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

One other thing I missed. If you don't like it why didn't you hop on beta to try to change it crowd. 

But, seeing how the emps to merit death knell turned out, I can sorta understand it.

One of the things that I dislike, and this is something that I've seen going back 2 decades so I can't blame it on the Emp merit change, is that people will ignore the Beta/Test server changes being discussed on the forums and then come on the forums to explode and the changes the day they go live.

 

My reaction is almost always "You know, we've been discussing this for the last 6 weeks. If it was a problem then why didn't you say something then?" Because if more of those people posted on the forums while the change was still on the beta/test server it might actually have been reverted or at least improved. Once things go to the live server they're seldom reverted, seldom improved, and almost never removed, and that goes for pretty much every game I've ever played.

[Frostbiter]

8 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I could be my usual self and post something that would make you hiss at me. 

Instead I'll say thanks and appreciate your meaningful response. 

 

It is a very high probability that am indeed in need of a break, these forums, some of the people, being so heavily vested in P4, some of the fallout, and some things that I just don't like are just grating on my nerves. Looking into things too much and taking it too personally. 

 

There is no spoon. If there is no spoon then there is no self.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Frostbiter

[Yomo Kimyata]

36 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

You can please some of the people...