Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Actually, you should be getting XP from AE missions, since they are supposed to be a simulation of reality, so that you're learning to use your powers the same way you would out in the 'real world'. Drops is something that AE itself would have to accommodate; since you're in a digital simulation, nothing you receive inside a mission has any existence outside, so AE itself would have to award them to you to match what you 'earned' in the mission. Influence (infamy, information), though, no. The game lore for the currency is that inf represents your reputation, and the willingness of others to do things to support you -- and I don't see how crawling into your electronic navel at level 1, then coming out at level 50, would give you any reputation whatsoever with the public -- "You're a 'Hero of the City'? What was your name again? I never heard of you." Now, I realize that this last is going to be hugely unpopular, and people are going to say that inf is just a currency, but then it comes back to how you earn a 'real world' currency inside a digital simulation. And this is just my opinion, and I have little to no influence (heh) on the HC staff in this regard.

I'm not going to disagree with this logic trail. And it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if the dialogue were to occur if my farm brute tried to start a Hess TF. "Who are you? Get lost. You bother me." But then, I should be able to burn him for his disrespect. 

And you're right - I do see it as just a currency, because that's all it is. I can't use my billions of influence to curry favor with Cole in the magisterium, nor Dr. Aeon, or any other NPC. Now, I can purchase certain things from p2w and minor things from certain other npcs, but despite my saving Tina McIntyre from the Rikti, she's not going to leave her post outside of Portal Corp and stand in Kallisti Wharf if I ask her to - as if I could actually ask her to do something. Inf has never had anything to do with a player's reputation in this game. Never. That may be the lore, but that's not the in-game reality. If it were, I'd have all kinds of influence over the npcs due to my very large stacks of influence. But someone with 20 inf carries the same reputation I do. 

There's never been any suggestion that influence has any bearing on this willingness of others to do things to support you that I'm aware of. So, I'm not at all sure where you get that from, other than maybe the actual definition of the word. But that's not what it means in this game. It's just synonymous with dollar, or bitcoin or gold or euro or any other currency. Exception being it has no real world value. (outside of nefarious transactions against the TOS)

 

[Puma]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:12 AM, Astralock said:

 

Prior to Page 2, there was literally no reason to have a Controller on the team.  A Mind Dom or Plant Dom, sure.  A Controller?  No.  Why would they when Blaster's controls were nearly as good, and they do a ton more damage?  I've also literally seen multiple Advanced Difficulty ASF leaders state that Controllers were a "carry" slot only on their respective teams because their controls were considered useless and they didn't do enough damage compared to Blasters and Dominators.

What was asked for was a change that required respecing (or even shelving in the case of plant manip) characters afterward.  You were given one. Whether you think that was a justified change is a secondary issue.

 

 And as someone who has been playing the game non-stop for years I have NEVER not seen plenty of controllers running around the city.  The idea that somehow they were useless is ridiculous. ESPECIALLY on task forces, where blasters controls weren't even close to being able to handle the mob sizes and AVs.  Sure, you have some idiots who might think so, but I promise you the changes made to blasters didn't suddenly make them want controllers, because those teams are likely steamrolling anyway and controllers just don't help with that no matter what.  

On 9/2/2022 at 1:17 PM, Ukase said:

 I'm just a guest here, but if they'd asked me, I'd have told them there were better things to pay attention to. It wasn't broken, so there was no need to fix it.
 

You most certainly aren't, and from my extensive interaction with the Devs, I don't believe they view it that way either. This server is run by a bunch of US who volunteer, and who actually pay the bills to keep it running.  It's a community effort.   The owners of this actual game are long gone.  

 

Your opinion matters exactly as much as anyone else's.   

Edited September 4, 2022 by Puma

[Ukase]

42 minutes ago, Puma said:

Your opinion matters exactly as much as anyone else's.   

Before this patch, I would have debated that. But, they did listen to my (and others) issue about the removal of vet level rewards while running AE content. 

I really can't express how that felt, to actually feel as if they listened. Prior to that, I would have said they never read a word. It may or may not have been the right move for the game. It may be too soon to tell. And, sometimes, even hindsight isn't 20/20. Sometimes, there is no good choice. But it was certainly my preference to keep the vet levels while running AE. 

[mrdeeds7]

I really like the general idea of finding a way to re-emphasize the grind and I know that there is always a balance between end-game content and non. To me the merit system is another tricky mechanic because it incentivizes players away from story arcs and banks, etc. not sure what you could do with it... other than maybe look at merit reward levels for story arcs (feels like some could be higher). Would love to see a way to stream more players into Gold to get started and my original thought was an alternate non-story stream over there that consisted of a DFB type event to get you to level 8-10ish and then a 2 part TF to get you to 20. Would love to see some resources put into updating the TFs. I understand there is only so much to go around and I think the work being done is awesome.   

[Seed22]

On 9/2/2022 at 2:18 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

A blaster plays in melee every bit as much as a scrapper? Clearly I have been playing my blasters incorrectly. 

 

What sold me on Seismic Blast as a set?  When I copied to the test server, whipped up a level 22ish character and took out a spawn of Warriors without them ever getting to launch an attack at me...while at range. Scrappers don't ever do that.

 

Blappers do considerably more damage. I'm not saying you're playing it wrong, just, well, that's why they usually are in melee.

 

Seismic does okayish damage (personally I'd like it to get juuust a smidge of a bump, but hey.) but a purely ranged wont touch (and shouldn't) a melee blapper in damage outside of Fire(and even then, a Fire^3 that is comfy in melee will smoke the all-ranged Fire, again, as it should.) because of the risk they take to do so.

 

Good point on the Scrappers though, until you consider Judgement, which ofc as we all know turns every situation into Blaster-nuke damage, which I don't necessarily see as horrendous(though I guess those who oppose Incarnates would, but then again, and no offense, I don't care what those folks think at all.)

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Puma said:

What was asked for was a change that required respecing (or even shelving in the case of plant manip) characters afterward.  You were given one. Whether you think that was a justified change is a secondary issue.

 

 And as someone who has been playing the game non-stop for years I have NEVER not seen plenty of controllers running around the city.  The idea that somehow they were useless is ridiculous. ESPECIALLY on task forces, where blasters controls weren't even close to being able to handle the mob sizes and AVs.  Sure, you have some idiots who might think so, but I promise you the changes made to blasters didn't suddenly make them want controllers, because those teams are likely steamrolling anyway and controllers just don't help with that no matter what.  

You most certainly aren't, and from my extensive interaction with the Devs, I don't believe they view it that way either. This server is run by a bunch of US who volunteer, and who actually pay the bills to keep it running.  It's a community effort.   The owners of this actual game are long gone.  

 

Your opinion matters exactly as much as anyone else's.   

I had 25+ trollers at 50 preshutdown, I agree with the sentiment.

 

 Post-relaunch, I saw a healthy amount of trollers, and their impact was felt pretty handidly when they were around. This idea that they're just so useless has always irritated me, as they were my fave control AT, before Doms. To reiterate, for those reading, trollers don't need more of a shining role, they already have one. They DO NOT NEED anymore of a reason to be in a team, folks just need to understand what it is they do, and work within that parameter.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Seed22

[Bionic_Flea]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

Before this patch, I would have debated that. But, they did listen to my (and others) issue about the removal of vet level rewards while running AE content. 

 

They always listen, they sometimes agree, but rarely do they obey.  Kinda like spouses!

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, mrdeeds7 said:

I really like the general idea of finding a way to re-emphasize the grind and I know that there is always a balance between end-game content and non. To me the merit system is another tricky mechanic because it incentivizes players away from story arcs and banks, etc. not sure what you could do with it... other than maybe look at merit reward levels for story arcs (feels like some could be higher). Would love to see a way to stream more players into Gold to get started and my original thought was an alternate non-story stream over there that consisted of a DFB type event to get you to level 8-10ish and then a 2 part TF to get you to 20. Would love to see some resources put into updating the TFs. I understand there is only so much to go around and I think the work being done is awesome.   

I used to chase reward merits, because I can exchange them for converters, which are the key to influence generation. And, when leveling, it makes sense to me to pursue story arcs, primarily due to the mission completion bonus. In some cases, it's only a bar of XP, in others it's up to 5 bars (with 2xp temp running). There's also a pro-tip where once the arc is over, before you call the contact to close it out, you boost your diff to +4 and get more of a bonus than if you left it at something less than +4. 

As far as getting more folks to do gold side, my best advice is to simply ask for commitment from other players to join you there for a specific time on a specific day and hope for the best. The SG I'm in, I've led gold side "crawls", where we only speed when the mission has a timer or something. And we sometimes turn off xp to complete all the arcs in the zone. I've also done the same for blue and red side. 
The downside seems to be that folks want to meet up more than once a week. Some folks, when they start a character and begin to enjoy it, they don't want to park it for a week until the next session. That was my biggest headache, really. One week, I'm level 7, and the next week two players are level 50 and need to be exemped. It's not a real big deal, but often these players are no longer challenged due to the extra slots they have. It can be hard to keep the interest of some people. And, sometimes, atrocious puns get out, and the groaning really starts. It would be nice for gold side to get a task force, though. 

[krj12]

I haven't played the hard mode ITF  yet, but...

if its gotten to the point where people are REQUIRING barrier to play, yeah ... I think I'll pass.

 

I've quit other MMOs because of the attitudes of many players that you have to do certain builds, or take certain powers, or play "perfectly"

on their team.   Don't want to see this happening in CoH.

 

 

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, Ukase said:

There's never been any suggestion that influence has any bearing on this willingness of others to do things to support you that I'm aware of.

Aargh. The link I tried to put in my comment didn't go through. Let's try this again: Paragonwiki on Influence. Admittedly, it's a high-level abstraction, and the devs seem to have assumed that the players would be more heavily into roleplaying and the world behind the game than the "fsck the lore, I don't want to take the time to play the game; PL me to 50 as fast as possible" fixation that has kept AE filled with sitters (for good or ill; they're at least participating in the game, and AE has a number of limitations that means that they'll come out of it at some point, to varying degrees of 'how do I do this?' that you get by level 10 or so running missions from contacts). I suppose it's a remnant of their having come to developing the game from PnP gaming, where the players would be invested much more heavily in the game world, instead of treating their characters like whatever hand cannon they've pulled out of their gun safe for this round of play.

[Coyotedancer]

To be fair here, though... The old devs sort of shot their own OMG-INF-ISN'T-CURRENCY!!! lore right in the foot when they introduced the auction house. And had it run on INF.

 

So, you're "trading" your reputation to someone else for goods... and paying the "taxes and fees" for that transaction with good looks and a smile? Yeeeeah. Sure you are.  😝 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Aargh. The link I tried to put in my comment didn't go through. Let's try this again: Paragonwiki on Influence. Admittedly, it's a high-level abstraction, and the devs seem to have assumed that the players would be more heavily into roleplaying and the world behind the game than the "fsck the lore, I don't want to take the time to play the game; PL me to 50 as fast as possible" fixation that has kept AE filled with sitters (for good or ill; they're at least participating in the game, and AE has a number of limitations that means that they'll come out of it at some point, to varying degrees of 'how do I do this?' that you get by level 10 or so running missions from contacts). I suppose it's a remnant of their having come to developing the game from PnP gaming, where the players would be invested much more heavily in the game world, instead of treating their characters like whatever hand cannon they've pulled out of their gun safe for this round of play.

I appreciate the link. I remember reading it somewhat recently. In fact, I tried a couple of times to click on what was in different color text in that previous post, and nothing happened. I figured you were trying to cite a source. 

As I said, I don't disagree with the logic trail. I just have never considered the influence I have to garner me any favor with any npcs. I can't get Yin to wear a decent costume. I can't get Manticore to cut his hair, no matter how much influence I offer him. I guess he's got his own stack already. I can't get Swan to eat a candy bar. Probably wouldn't do much good, she'd just throw it up. Damn girl is seriously unhealthy; will probably dry up and blow away. 

I can garner favor with other players, I suppose. Give out a few hundred million here and there. And that only gives me a thank you about 40% of the time. So, um, no. Influence is loot. It doesn't garner any influence. It's simply in-game currency. Now, that may not be what ol' Jackie Emmert was trying for, but that's the end result. 
 

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, krj12 said:

I haven't played the hard mode ITF  yet, but...

if its gotten to the point where people are REQUIRING barrier to play, yeah ... I think I'll pass.

 

I've quit other MMOs because of the attitudes of many players that you have to do certain builds, or take certain powers, or play "perfectly"

on their team.   Don't want to see this happening in CoH.

 

 

I would encourage you to not quit over something like that. Just don't team with folks who require it. Incarnate materials aren't THAT easy to come by, until you don't need them anymore. Then you get all kinds of crap you can't use. I've got like 30 very rare pieces of incarnate salvage on my badge character, and can't use them, unless I want to make yet another lore pet. Hoping that one day, we'll be able to trade those to our alts. 

It is true that staggering barrier is a good strategy for both HM ITF and Aeon SF. But there certainly doesn't need to be 8 barriers. We did it last week with some folks having incan, some having rebirth and I believe 5 of us had barrier. 
The main reason for the barrier is not the protection, but the 2x rez. Even the good teams will need to rez fairly often. 

 

[Sanguinesun]

9 hours ago, krj12 said:

I haven't played the hard mode ITF  yet, but...

if its gotten to the point where people are REQUIRING barrier to play, yeah ... I think I'll pass.

 

I've quit other MMOs because of the attitudes of many players that you have to do certain builds, or take certain powers, or play "perfectly"

on their team.   Don't want to see this happening in CoH.

 

 

 

I do think the evidence is compelling that the hard modes as their currently instituted are not unlike the grooming that wow did with the exclusionary/elitist mentality with raiding and more aptly, mythic raiding.  Unfortunately, there's little way from that being dissuaded since the challenge in itself breeds  min/maxing and exclusion too.  I understand that there's a segment of players that flourish within that sort of challenge... and that sort of thinking(and not), though.  Hopefully that will satisfy them for a long while and that attention is focused and turned upon many other aspects of the game for a few years at least. 

 

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

Before this patch, I would have debated that. But, they did listen to my (and others) issue about the removal of vet level rewards while running AE content. 

I really can't express how that felt, to actually feel as if they listened. Prior to that, I would have said they never read a word. It may or may not have been the right move for the game. It may be too soon to tell. And, sometimes, even hindsight isn't 20/20. Sometimes, there is no good choice. But it was certainly my preference to keep the vet levels while running AE. 

 

 

But if a trend exists, gravitating towards erosion of playstyles and enjoyment for a relevant number of people, then that is where a concern, and an eventually widening schism of the player base may be headed.  Remember, until there was complaint, their intentions(ie mindset) was to discourage that playstyle and enjoyment by others.  I would argue it still exists but only mitigated by the criticisms in July.  Never the less, some of their intentions -did- become implemented, intentionally, to discourage that player base.    Take that to mean then, that they'll continue to look for ways to, bit by bit, chip away at that. 

 

Don't then consider that they actually listened in the sense that folks should be wholly satisfied.  Take it to mean that, they're easing others into their inevitable goals/results.  Again, there is a segment of the team/playerbase that do not consider nor want that playstyle to be valid.

[Ruin Mage]

11 hours ago, krj12 said:

if its gotten to the point where people are REQUIRING barrier to play, yeah ... I think I'll pass.

If a team is requiring all eight players to use barrier, they are a team you should avoid because barrier cycling will not make HM 3/4 any easier. It takes away small dangers, but barrier will not prevent the Hostless Aspect from holding you or taking your body.

[The_Warpact]

I think everyone is missing a couple of key things. Hard Mode isn't a required way of playing.

Secondly, you do have the right to choose to play on those teams or more effectively start your own.

@Sanguinesun if "min/maxed" players are spamming Barrier then they aren't min/maxed.

 

 

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

But if a trend exists, gravitating towards erosion of playstyles and enjoyment for a relevant number of people, then that is where a concern, and an eventually widening schism of the player base may be headed.  Remember, until there was complaint, their intentions(ie mindset) was to discourage that playstyle and enjoyment by others.  I would argue it still exists but only mitigated by the criticisms in July.  Never the less, some of their intentions -did- become implemented, intentionally, to discourage that player base.    Take that to mean then, that they'll continue to look for ways to, bit by bit, chip away at that. 

 

Don't then consider that they actually listened in the sense that folks should be wholly satisfied.  Take it to mean that, they're easing others into their inevitable goals/results.  Again, there is a segment of the team/playerbase that do not consider nor want that playstyle to be valid.

So, I'm adding the emphasis merely to point out, that while the end result may be an erosion of enjoyment, I do not think that is their intent. I mean, what would be the point? 

If you're bored and want to read - keep reading. My first sentence is pretty much all you need.
***********************

There is one thing that GM Jimmy stated a few years ago, right around the very first patch, maybe after they'd seeded the AH with salvage, where he claimed that farming was good for the community, but afk farming needed to be addressed. Now, I'm not going to read too much into that. I can't say at that time he'd done a long look at the impacts of it or anything like that, but at the time it was his view that something needed to be done. As to whether it should be prevented completely, or something else, I can't say. 

I don't like it, because afk farming is a great way to accumulate influence while you play on another account. And I don't think it would be proper to let someone like me who's been doing afk farming for quite some time to keep all those proceeds, while future players won't have that recourse. The only thing is, I don't know why Jimmy felt it was something that needed to be addressed. I personally see no harm in it, as anyone who wants to can do so. The barrier for entry is super low. You just have to start small, and work your way up, the same way I did, as did every other afk farmer. 

And this has already been debated. The horse is dead, many times over. Some folks like and love it. Some folks could care less. Some folks are literally excited that changes were made and afk farming being a bit more difficult for some players is simply a side effect they've not thought about or been concerned with, or an added bonus. We're all different and have different views. Nothing new there. And it is true - they cannot please all of us, all of the time.  

[arcane]

3 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

I think everyone is missing a couple of key things. Hard Mode isn't a required way of playing.

Secondly, you do have the right to choose to play on those teams or more effectively start your own.

 

The thank you emoji react isn’t enough here.

[tidge]

It appears to me that the true value of AFK farming is the allowance it makes for simultaneous full-time forum PVP.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

It appears to me that the true value of AFK farming is the allowance it makes for simultaneous full-time forum PVP.

 

No, Tidge, that's what work-hours are for!

[The_Warpact]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, Tidge, that's what work-hours are for!

This

[Neiska]

19 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

This

 

Personally, I think it says quite a bit when almost any topic in forums eventually turns into a "nerf farms" debate. Ever since patch 4 hit beta it's been a hot issue. My theory is that some people spend way too much time worrying about how other people play or spend their game time. And by that I don't mean only the anti-farm crowd either.

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Personally, I think it says quite a bit when almost any topic in forums eventually turns into a "nerf farms" debate. Ever since patch 4 hit beta it's been a hot issue. My theory is that some people spend way too much time worrying about how other people play or spend their game time. And by that I don't mean only the anti-farm crowd either.

This x2

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, Tidge, that's what work-hours are for!

 

Please tell the RL Devs I didn't ask for RL hard-mode.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Please tell the RL Devs I didn't ask for RL hard-mode.

 

I go back to work on Wed. RL devs are MEAN! Makin me do stuff to pay bills. The bastards!