Discussion - "Ownership" of public game spaces for roleplay purposes

[MistressOhm]

This might be a sensitive topic, so I will do my best not to call anyone out specifically, nor step on toes where it's not warranted.  I do ask that we keep the conversation civil, and present views in as hypothetical a context as we can.  I know there will be people who will think "Hey! That's ME that Ohm is talking about!" and possibly get upset.  I want to state for the record, I don't know anyone as players, I'm only familiar with a few character bios and perhaps some overheard public roleplay, so this is not directed against anyone specifically, unless they state they're the ones being talked about.  And hey, it'd be cool to see that 'side' of the issue also, so if someone does say "Hey this is me" it'd be really helpful to see your viewpoint and rationale.  Maybe there's Reasons^(tm) that I didn't consider, and should have.   

 

So here's the issue:  Recently I've run across groups of people staking claim to publicly-accessible (not instanced) areas in game as 'theirs'.  I don't mean as a 'regular table' at the local bar and grill, but as actual real estate for a headquarters and so on.   And... this seems to me to be kind of selfish.  One, there's no way to actually block others from strolling up and jumping into the roleplay (short of filing a complaint), and two, to others wandering around, it's kind of like, "Wait, this was an open spot before this group came along, what gives?" 

 

Now, back on Live I was part of a couple of small roleplay groups.  And being poor/lacking in prestige, we elected to roleplay in the main world rather than in a supergroup base.  But, we tended to park ourselves on rooftops well out of local chat range, rather than hanging out in front of InFront Steakhouse or City of Gyros.  And once bases became 'the' thing for supergroups to build, group-centric roleplay that wasn't meant to include the public all migrated to these bases. 

 

With Homecoming making base building essentially free of cost, all that is needed is time to put together some sort of hideaway/HQ/hangout spot. 

 

So I find the 'staking claim' practice a bit annoying.  But before I raise a stink over it, I wanted to really find out what the consensus is with the Homecoming roleplaying community.

 

Now, above, I stated "group-centric roleplay that wasn't meant to include the public."  I wanted to make this qualification because every group has a public face, be it recruitment, PR, damage control, media messaging, whatever you'd like to bring into your collective lore.  I have no issues with that being in a public space, because otherwise you have to invite people into your space, set up access permissions, and all that.  It's often easier to make appointments to meet in a public setting.  So let's put that on the sidebar, that this is no way a critique on "roleplay with the public".   What's at stake here is "group roleplay" where the group may not be the only ones in attendance, to the point that 'the public' might interfere or derail the scene OR introduce elements that might not be something the group wants to deal with.  

 

What are all your thoughts on the matter?  Is this something that I'm just overly sensitive about, or should the above type of roleplay be conducted in a group-accessable space (supergroup base, shared team instance, AE mission, whatever)?  What is gained by doing this publicly? What risks does it bring in?  

 

Thank you in advance. I look forward to responses. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by MistressOhm

[flakoff]

Public space is for anyone, unless griefing then no one has a right to tell anyone they aren't welcome .

They can always find a quiet zone easy enough anyway.

[Greycat]

Public space is ... public. Anyone saying otherwise needs to be hit upside the head with a dictionary.

 

I mean, sure, if a group is doing something, they shouldn't be barged in on or whatever, but "claiming" a spot is "theirs" ... no.

 

Now, yeah, I don't think you're talking about "Our group meets up at this spot every Wednesday" or "we're hanging out in public right now." That's fine - just like you can go out with friends IRL and terrorize a table at the Olive Garden or whatever, people shouldn't barge into that. But you can't demand the waitress move other customers out of a specific table because it's "yours" when you do it.

[Coyotedancer]

If they're hanging around a public space, they have to expect "the public" to come and go around them... Like Grey said, imagine a group of friends meeting at a restaurant. 

 

That doesn't mean they need to let "the public" into their session, though. How many of us would appreciate some stranger barging uninvited into our conversation at that restaurant? How many strangers would look at the table of chatting friends and think "Oh! A conversation! I should totally 'put myself Out There' and join in! It'll be GREAT-"?

 

So, I'd say it's one of those situations where they should get to do their own thing in peace... while also letting other people go about their own business, just like we do in public spaces out here in the Real World.

[MistressOhm]

It's less of "we're having a gathering here" and more of "this area is now our official HQ".  

 

The former I have no issue with at all.  The latter is like, "I would have sworn this was a noodle shop yesterday. Or, wait, your base is in a noodle shop?"

[El D]

I have no issue with groups staking an RP claim to a public space, provided it's aimed solely at their group.

 

An SG wants to RP that some random skyscraper in Atlas is owned by one of their characters, or that their character is the manager of a specific Up-N-Away Burger? Great, more power to them. The moment they try to force other players to conform to their private story and not to use that public space? Nope. Get out of here with that nonsense and build a supergroup base if that's the level of exclusivity you want.

Edited September 25, 2022 by El D

[Coyotedancer]

58 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

It's less of "we're having a gathering here" and more of "this area is now our official HQ".  

 

The former I have no issue with at all.  The latter is like, "I would have sworn this was a noodle shop yesterday. Or, wait, your base is in a noodle shop?"

 

Everyone's got to start somewhere. The real estate market is crazy these days. 😝

[American Valor]

A quick chime in on the live forums a colective group decided a building in Steel Cannyon was an Apt complex and in game on many servers we would meet up at said building and have fun. It was open RP even then we had closed storyline sort of but  new tenants were always welcome. Did we claim ownership yes did we force the issue never. Live was different. with that said the more things change the more they stay the same. In an earlier post someone mentioned  not butting into a group meeting I would cavete that wirh  send a tell/pm  especially if your a new or inexperienced  ingame RP'er ask and find out if it would be okay to join in. In a MMO it can be daunting to want to be included and not be shut down in a public area its hard to know whos open and who's not when speaking in local or broadcast.  Thanks  fot reading 

[Master_Minion]

Roleplaying with a dedicated group in the open world has a lot of complications, honestly. I've noticed multiple groups not aware of group dynamics stroll into pocket D with a party 5-20 strong and accidentally disrupt just about everything at a populated bar, and I've seen people come across scenes in public areas and try to jump in without bothering to get context, and throwing a ton off. A little bit of understanding and communication goes a long way in both directions.

 

There's totally been certain groups that claim ownership or get territorial of something in the open world, but there's also been groups that just like a certain meetup spot and people presume the worst because how it might look from the outside. Breakdowns in communication happen, and plenty of time conflict is just people misunderstanding or over emphasizing something minor.

 

This game ripe with roleplay environments all over the open world; public parks, sitting areas, store fronts, picnic tables, multiple buildings with enclosed gardens, etc etc etc. Honestly it's a shame I'm not seeing more people using them, instead 90% of roleplay in the open world is done in pocket D, regardless of if the character or group makes sense in a night club.

[Frozen Burn]

Typically, if a group wants to reserve a public space, they have to go to City Hall, the Parks Dept, or etc and get a permit to reserve that public space for their private function.  ....so.... ask those players if they've secured the necessary permits to reserve that public space and have them email you a copy!  I bet there is no one inside City Hall that would issue their permit.  😄 

[Kelri Irris]

No offense to anyone here, but how do you own places in game? I just...being one of those people who will just start a conversation anywhere in public, not include anyone in a private conversation taking place in public, and go find somewhere else to be if someone is where I want to be....in real life...it occurs to me that I can do all of that in real life without asking permission, so why would I need to ask permission in this situation. 

 

I mean...I've been told how to "properly" rp by other rp'ers and ignored them because my time is precious and I don't need to spend it doing everything the way I'm told. This just isn't something that makes sense to me. What you're describing is somewhat baffling. 

 

Example: Back on Live, I identified a specific building in Talos as containing my main's apartment and rp'd a party as supposedly taking place at said apartment. We didn't have folks chasing other rp'ers off the building. We just ignored anyone not in the party icly. There's this really great feature in the game where you can ignore a character near you that's trying to be part of the rp by trying to force interaction that you don't want. I used to use it all the time. Just saying, /ignore has saved my day so many times. 

 

I've been in online rp for decades. There's nothing more frustrating (and often intimidating) than someone trying to force you into rp that you never agreed to. But every time someone says the words "I have to..." or "That person made me rp this..." I just shake my head. In my experience, some folks want to "make" you rp stuff you don't want to, and - big surprise - I'm not going to make my character that person's character's "victim". So, as far as I'm concerned, if your group wants to claim a spot in game, I don't have an issue with it, because I don't have to rp with your group. 

 

[MistressOhm]

5 hours ago, Krimson said:

I am kind of curious as to what sort of building or structure would be claimed, and how that could affect others

 

It's one of the bar areas in Pocket D.  Suffice it to say that through traffic is fairly high, and the NPC tending the bar is pretty vocal.  🙂 

 

And yes, its not like there's any shortage of RP space, Kallisti Wharf is completely target-free, so the whole zone is one big space to hang out and roleplay.

Edited September 26, 2022 by MistressOhm

[Kelri Irris]

10 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

 

It's one of the bar areas in Pocket D.  Suffice it to say that through traffic is fairly high, and the NPC tending the bar is pretty vocal.  🙂 

 

And yes, its not like there's any shortage of RP space, Kallisti Wharf is completely target-free, so the whole zone is one big space to hang out and roleplay.

 

Wait. Are they telling you not to be there? Because that /ignore thing works just fine. And as for vocal NPCs, I just don't put NPC dialogue in my rp tab. 

 

[MistressOhm]

8 minutes ago, Kelri Irris said:

Wait. Are they telling you not to be there? Because that /ignore thing works just fine. And as for vocal NPCs, I just don't put NPC dialogue in my rp tab. 

 

 

I'd be ignoring the players of an entire supergroup, which is WAY overkill for this.  

 

As stated in the first post, I'm trying to figure out if this is 'egregious enough' to complain officially (so that the SG leader can be told to straighten up and fly right) or it's not that big a deal and I should just avoid the area in an RP sense.  Several other players have stated (in local and broadcast!) that they're annoyed, but.. either the SG isn't paying attention, or they don't care.  

 

I will not be naming the group here. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by MistressOhm

[Kelri Irris]

11 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

 

I'd be ignoring the players of an entire supergroup, which is WAY overkill for this.  

 

As stated in the first post, I'm trying to figure out if this is 'egregious enough' to complain officially (so that the SG leader can be told to straighten up and fly right) or it's not that big a deal and I should just avoid the area in an RP sense.  Several other players have stated (in local and broadcast!) that they're annoyed, but.. either the SG isn't paying attention, or they don't care.  

 

I will not be naming the group here. 

 

So, they're not telling you not to be there. You just don't like their rp?

[MistressOhm]

I haven't forced the issue by walking up and using it as a bar and calling anyone out on insisting it's a corporate property, no.   

 

I could, which would probably escalate into OOC sniping and general bad feelings. 

 

I could just ignore the fact that a supergroup has taken over a specific space, and figure, "enh, it's roleplay, whatever."  

 

This is what this discussion is for.  Before any tickets are filed, or supergroup leaders are contacted, I'm genuinely asking, how you all, as roleplayers, would handle such a matter.

 

[Kelri Irris]

Well, I would do what I posted earlier. Leave them be and find my own thing to get into. 

[UltraAlt]

On 9/25/2022 at 1:05 AM, MistressOhm said:

"Wait, this was an open spot before this group came along, what gives?" 

 

Cliques form in any kind of social setting. The more elitist a clique becomes, the more territorial they become aka mark their territory.

Perhaps they think that they are even putting on a show for others that aren't as cool as they are.

 

I mean, if they are chatting in local, that's anyone's and everyone's local.

Anyone can talk in local. it's no different than a crowded rowdy bar.

 

On 9/25/2022 at 1:05 AM, MistressOhm said:

With Homecoming making base building essentially free of cost, all that is needed is time to put together some sort of hideaway/HQ/hangout spot. 

 

Do you remember how crowded the Pocket D used to be?

The dance floor was crowded with people dancing, and they were most probably having tell conversations versus local conversations.

 

The RPG community is out there. Some are going to to be extroverts and some are going introverts. 

As I mentioned above, some are going to be rp-ing in the open to exert claim on turf and some may just be "acting" in public because they think other people will want to observe/view their rp-ing.

 

I see RP-ing in Public Places more in the Pocket D than any place else. That's what it's there for. It's a club.

 

If the issue really is that you can't rp because you are being disrupted by others in a public place, then you have suggested the solution to your own problem.

 

On 9/25/2022 at 1:05 AM, MistressOhm said:

roleplay that wasn't meant to include the public all migrated to these bases.

 

Those other people are the public.

 

On 9/25/2022 at 1:05 AM, MistressOhm said:

One, there's no way to actually block others from strolling up and jumping into the roleplay (short of filing a complaint)

 

I have the feeling that filing a complaint that other people are talking in local where you are rp'ing in local isn't going to go very far with the DEVs or GMs.

A public place is a public place. 

They can try to assert domination, but that is them rp'ing even if it is just their own natural behavior.

 

How do they say "get a room" these days?

 

There are alot of open bases for rp'r to rp in, but they shouldn't be forced to go there.

If they RP in an open place and talk in local, they can't really complain about others walking up and talking in local in a public place.

 

Of course, they can rp complain because that is all they are really doing. You can rp back your complaint against them or just ignore them and have your own conversation the same as you would in a crowded bar.

 

Now stalking or harassing are completely different things. If you try to interact with someone, they don't want to play and tell you as much  .... it's easy enough to just not interact with them. Don't sent them tells. 

If they are in a public place, and you are chatting in local and in the same area .... you are in a public place talking in local.

 

Honestly, if you are in a public place, snide comments about others is what Cliques are about. Make your group feel superior by demeaning others. Rival cliques go at it.

 

It isn't going to turn into a fight in the Pocket D. Take it to a PvP area if you want to rumble.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by UltraAlt
Better Rumble Video for this discussion

[UltraAlt]

59 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

As stated in the first post, I'm trying to figure out if this is 'egregious enough' to complain officially (so that the SG leader can be told to straighten up and fly right) or it's not that big a deal and I should just avoid the area in an RP sense.  Several other players have stated (in local and broadcast!) that they're annoyed, but.. either the SG isn't paying attention, or they don't care.  

 

I don't think that putting in a ticket about others rp'ing in local is going to get you anywhere unless they are breaking the CoC.

They aren't breaking the CoC by talking local regardless of where they are.

 

I don't see where it your place to tell anyone in game to "straighten up and fly right" unless they are ERP'ing in public.

... and if they are ERP'ing in public, recording footage of the conversation and reporting it is something that you should do, because minors do play this game.

 

Most ERPr's know better and "get a room".

 

Honestly, anyone can team up and chat in team or even league up and talk in league.

you can add/remove chat types from chat tabs.

 

Chatting in local is for everyone in the area obviously. Everyone local enough can see/hear it. 

 

 

[MistressOhm]

Ok so the consensus seems to be "deal with it" in whatever form or fashion (be it ignoring the /local rp, avoiding the area) rather than asserting that ownership is invalid.

 

Noted.  Thanks.  That's what I posted this to find out, thank you!  🙂

[UltraAlt]

7 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

Ok so the consensus seems to be "deal with it" in whatever form or fashion (be it ignoring the /local rp, avoiding the area) rather than asserting that ownership is invalid.

 

Noted.  Thanks.  That's what I posted this to find out, thank you!  🙂

 

You can RP your asserting that they don't own the "turf".

That's RP too.

 

They can either rp with you about it/deal with it, /ignore you, move someplace else, or call you out to a PvP zone to fighting it out.

 

 

[Troo]

[TwoDee]

On 9/25/2022 at 7:47 PM, Master_Minion said:

This game ripe with roleplay environments all over the open world; public parks, sitting areas, store fronts, picnic tables, multiple buildings with enclosed gardens, etc etc etc. Honestly it's a shame I'm not seeing more people using them, instead 90% of roleplay in the open world is done in pocket D, regardless of if the character or group makes sense in a night club.

 

This is where I tend to land on this issue.  I don't make a habit of going around "claiming" spaces in the open world, but I love seeing players roleplaying outside of Pocket D.  Grounding player fanon with the game canon feels, to me, to be a good thing provided you're prepared to accept appeals to verisimilitude like "this is my stop!  I live in that building at the end of the street."  Players like to feel integrated with the lore and with the world, and building fanon off of the many interchangeable polygonal buildings in the city is laudable in my book, provided it's not some egregious violation of the pretendy-times social contract like "Yeah, I'm the head of the FBSA, everyone out of City Hall!  No talking to the 1-5 contacts!"

 

A comparable phenomenon is that it's against terms of service to claim to be the, definitive group, but several supergroups past and present on Everlasting are based directly on canon organizations: more Vanguard groups than I can shake a stick at, the fabulous <Hero Corps Founders Falls>, the Arachnos VGs <Ivory Tower> and <Arachnos Espionage Division>, my own <New Praetorians Initiative>, and even the controversial <Crey Corp's The Watch> (though they also wear the outside-text canon of The Boys on their sleeves).  In the absence of competing "claims" like we saw with the two ill-fated <Paragon Police ______> supergroups who hated each other, I tend to be perfectly happy to take 'canon group' player characters at face value rather than going "nuh UH, you're not a REAL Paragon Police officer, like I am!"

 

If the player or group demonstrates an extreme disconnect from my expectations of what's appropriate of a canon group -- as in one "New Praetorian" I encountered who was also the commander of a Rikti army that had singlehandedly defeated Tyrant, or a "Crey Representative" I encountered who had absolutely no 'Public Relations Voice' and mostly seemed content to hurl vulgar obscenities and threats of violence at every superhero she encountered -- that's my cue to simply disengage.  There's nothing for me there, but it's not worth starting a fight over.

 

Occupied spaces are an analogous situation.  To reiterate my general vibe-check, if it's a 'high traffic' space like Kallisti Plaza, City Hall, or the Atlas Boot (all of which I've seen players claim "belongs" to them), that's ridiculous.  This is especially true of Pocket D, which already has a textual owner (DJ Zero) and is metatextually a 'neutral space,' so the assertion of ownership violates literally everything about the intended usage of the zone as a facilitator for lightweight, no-strings attached social RP.  Were such a supergroup (maybe even one of the ones I mentioned above!) hypothetically claiming to own some or all of Pocket D, I would consider that a display of extremely poor roleplay etiquette, but write it off as the cost of doing business and bounce my RP to somewhere nearby after making clear OOC that I did not want to be involved.  The only situation in which I'd consider involving the mods is if the infringing roleplayers pursued after I made clear OOC that I wasn't interested in participating, because that's when we start getting into actionables like 'harassment'... and even then I'd probably just Ignorelist before I involved an admin in an RP fight.  The admins exist to police definitive rule infractions, not to serve as babysitters for the adult children who like to shit in Everlasting's roleplay sandbox.

 

To end on a point of encouragement, though:  If a group asserts that the Up-N-Away Burger next to the tailor in Atlas is where they go for those promotional pumpkin spice shakes, or that they live in the Hotel Geneva location south of the New Sparta marker in Talos Island, I think that's awesome!  I'd be a pedant at best and a douchebag at worst to insist "No, you can't lay claim to the world like that, that steps all over other players.  No saying things about the world that we can't verify in the lore."

 

They're not stepping all over other players by squatting in that little park with the arches in Steel Canyon.  They're not making sweeping declarations asserting their own, clashing canonicity.  They're adding flavor and depth to the world we share.  Dollars to donuts, I didn't have a very strong impression of what that Up-N-Away burger served on its shake menu, anyway, and my personal roleplay is likely reconcilable with the idea that they serve pumpkin spice shakes.  And if I absolutely NEED the ice cream machine at that Up-N-Away burger to be broken or else my entire character concept will fall apart into a mess of contradiction, that's the point where I just don't interact with those roleplayers, like in the more extreme cases above.

 

At the end of the day, it isn't hard to not roleplay in the cavernous open space of Everlasting, where there are only 300-500 players at peak hours, maybe thirty of whom are roleplaying at any given time.

[Living_Hellfire]

"Owning of public spaces"

 

I'm gonna need you to read that again. It's public. You can't own a public space. If you're RPing in public then it's a tacit invitation to anyone around to join in as they see fit, that's how it works.

 

You can either welcome them or move along to another location. If they start following you around, well... then that's a little different, particularly if you've asked them in a polite /tell OOC to stop then it becomes harassment, but one has a responsibility to do what one can prior to it getting to that place.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I own Peregrine Island.

 

It's MY ISLAND.