Focused Feedback: Robotics Revamp

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, tiberius0476 said:

Was the assault bot -regen broken on new bots changes, so that it had to be moved? If that's the case, then this all makes sense.

 

I'd imagine that was factored into it, yes. Surprised they let us even keep a little of that in the personal attacks, 200% per attack ain't bad at all.

 

Fact of the matter is this, though: bots on live have the worst dps of all the MM sets (yes, worse than mercs), ISM essentially carrying the AoE by itself in all it's full glory, with -regen being the crutch that allows you to tickle big bosses to death.

 

Now, you're trading some of that regen that only applied a third of the time from the plasma blasts and some of your ISM damage to gain significantly enhanced damage across the board in both ST and aoe.

 

But I don't value words without anything to back them, and neither should you. To that end, I'll be uploading some +4 av/gm kills later tonight if I find the time, just to highlight how much of a non-issue the -regen thing is.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai
Typo correction

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Communistpenguin said:

So, if the devs are considering alternate models for the maintenance drone, I would like to suggest the sky raiders force field generator bot. Also, we cant heal the maintenance bot?

I'm pretty sure the power description says you can't heal it. It uses its own health to heal the main bots henchmen; it's not supposed to be something you keep alive.

[ScarySai]

I treat it as more or less expendable. It eats a hit, better it than your core bots. It dies healing your dudes? Replace it and move on. I'll even replace a damaged one if I'm sitting on the cd for awhile.

 

Kinda like the traps ffg, it's very important, but it's short cd and short lifespan at times means you don't really have to care if it gets whacked.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[TygerDarkstorm]

Yeah, that was how I treated maintenance drone when I was on beta as well. I also had some issues with it not healing my bots when they were taking damage but the stupid drone was hanging around with full health. But yeah, I often was resummoning it when it had low health, especially if I was getting ready to start a fresh spawn.

[WindDemon21]

11 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Another page, another wall of untested complaining about the -regen "loss".

 

Guys, its a straight buff no matter how you twist this. +0, to +4. Save it for something that's actually a nerf.

Again, YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT! It's not about "how much -regen is there now. The point is KEEP IT IN THE BOTS!

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

 

I'd imagine that was factored into it, yes. Surprised they let us even keep a little of that in the personal attacks, 200% per attack ain't bad at all.

 

Fact of the matter is this, though: bots on live have the worst dps of all the MM sets (yes, worse than mercs), ISM essentially carrying the AoE by itself in all it's full glory, with -regen being the crutch that allows you to tickle big bosses to death.

 

Now, you're trading some of that regen that only applied a third of the time from the plasma blasts and some of your ISM damage to gain significantly enhanced damage across the board in both ST and aoe.

 

But I don't value words without anything to back them, and neither should you. To that end, I'll be uploading some +4 av/gm kills later tonight if I find the time, just to highlight how much of a non-issue the -regen thing is.

From that one aoe maybe, but from the one that was on a 4s recharge timer and lasted 30 seconds, that most definitely was a perma 500% -regen in all cases. And averaging the other one, in long fights was about 650% -regen on average.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, Qualith said:

It is easy, keep in mind mms do inflated damage on pylons. So pylon times aren't an accurate indication.

 

Also keep in mind, that this is also not accounting for any time you team, and that -regen means more against an AV than any one person's DPA.

[Qualith]

I didn't say anything to the contrary, the only point of my post was to suggest testing the differences against an av spawn not pylons. 

46 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Also keep in mind, that this is also not accounting for any time you team, and that -regen means more against an AV than any one person's DPA.

 

[Tacheyon]

42 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Also keep in mind, that this is also not accounting for any time you team, and that -regen means more against an AV than any one person's DPA.

 

Wow.  I am sorry, but what AV needs that much -regen when facing a team?  What is one tick of regen going to do against a bunch of people wailing on it?  Unless it is a team full of Controllers pure damage will always mean more then -regen.  And how many teams have a Bots MM in them and they do fine.

 

Yes people are going to have to change builds.  Heck the Power re-Ordering is going to make that a given across the board.  But for Merc/Ninja/Bots/Necros we will have to rethink our entire outlook and playstyle.  It's the first start in making MM's more streamlined with other AT's.

[ScarySai]

Not to mention that your odds of being on a full team without any -regen and being incapable of beating the AV are pretty low.

 

Videos are processing now, by the way. Spoiler alert: I'm right.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Again, YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT! It's not about "how much -regen is there now. The point is KEEP IT IN THE BOTS!

 

Why do you need it to be in the Bots so bad? -Regen is effectively just an increase in DPS. If Bots' actual single-target DPS has been increased so much that it entirely makes up for the loss of effective DPS from -Regen being moved, what does it matter?

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Why do you need it to be in the Bots so bad? -Regen is effectively just an increase in DPS.

For most of the game it's worse than that, given how health scaling doesn't make this significant until facing avs/gms, and there's very few things in the game right now that have regen boosting powers below that, outside of AE.

 

It's been a very lopsided trade, very much in favor of bot players.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

 

Why do you need it to be in the Bots so bad? -Regen is effectively just an increase in DPS. If Bots' actual single-target DPS has been increased so much that it entirely makes up for the loss of effective DPS from -Regen being moved, what does it matter?

As mentioned several times, so that you still have it for the many builds that are either too busy, or skip the personal attacks. It's also on the point of not losing out on the -regen by doing so and feeling like you *need* to take the personal attacks if you want that -regen. Again, we're not talking about how much better bots are now in relation etc, just  that you shouldn't have to take the personal attacks to now get the -regen that was always in bots in the first place.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Why do you need it to be in the Bots so bad? -Regen is effectively just an increase in DPS. If Bots' actual single-target DPS has been increased so much that it entirely makes up for the loss of effective DPS from -Regen being moved, what does it matter?

Because it hasn't been increased "so much" as to offset it in some situations. It was always there before there is no reason to remove it from the bots into the personal attacks. One example, outside of reischman obviously, is marauder/cyclops/mintaurs when they pop their unstoppable. That -regen lets you widdle down, wait, why am I explaining this at all. We're not talking about -regen being useful, again, were stating, that the -regen should remain in the bots so you don't have to pick up the attacks to keep it. End of discussion.

[tiberius0476]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Spoiler alert: I'm right.

You're right that bots does more damage now? Cool, that's good to hear.

 

But if you did it by ignoring all of the MM personal robotics attacks, then I'm also right: they aren't worth picking up, and I'd rather they did something else like necro/ninja/mercs do.

 

You keep saying it's a "lopsided trade" but I haven't seen anyone say these changes have to all go together and can't be individually tuned. What if we could keep the bot power/damage changes, and we can address the fact that moving the -regen on personal attacks isn't super fun or good or worth it?

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

As mentioned several times, so that you still have it for the many builds that are either too busy, or skip the personal attacks. It's also on the point of not losing out on the -regen by doing so and feeling like you *need* to take the personal attacks if you want that -regen. Again, we're not talking about how much better bots are now in relation etc, just  that you shouldn't have to take the personal attacks to now get the -regen that was always in bots in the first place.

 

You're so hyper-fixated on simply having the -Regen that it seems like you're losing sight of what the -Regen actually is. If your bots are doing 100 DPS and your -Regen prevents the enemy from healing 50 HPS, you have 150 effective DPS. If the same build gets changed so that the bots are simply doing 150 DPS with no -Regen, nothing has been lost. If you can't fit in the personal attacks, you're still exactly where you were.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, tiberius0476 said:

You're right that bots does more damage now? Cool, that's good to hear.

 

But if you did it by ignoring all of the MM personal robotics attacks, then I'm also right: they aren't worth picking up, and I'd rather they did something else like necro/ninja/mercs do.

 

You keep saying it's a "lopsided trade" but I haven't seen anyone say these changes have to all go together and can't be individually tuned. What if we could keep the bot power/damage changes, and we can address the fact that moving the -regen on personal attacks isn't super fun or good or worth it?

Right, I'm not a fan of anything being *key* in those attacks at all tbh. They should be there if you want to add more dps personally, bonuses, to keep you busy etc. But don't think they should be key to a mechanic of the set.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Vanden said:

 

You're so hyper-fixated on simply having the -Regen that it seems like you're losing sight of what the -Regen actually is. If your bots are doing 100 DPS and your -Regen prevents the enemy from healing 50 HPS, you have 150 effective DPS. If the same build gets changed so that the bots are simply doing 150 DPS with no -Regen, nothing has been lost. If you can't fit in the personal attacks, you're still exactly where you were.

I get that, and what YOU'RE missing, is that, that is just you. That -regen helps more on teams as well. And now you have to pick up, use, and lose end on the MM attacks in order to retain *some*, ie also still nerfed from live on the amounts, of the -regen. You're completley looking at this in a vacuum. I'm not saying that the bot upgrades aren't nice for the bots themselves. What I-WE, are saying, is that the -regen should remain in the bots so you don't have to pick up and use the attacks to keep the -regen in the build when it was always in the bots.

[WindDemon21]

Again, we're not talking about the bots MM overall, we're talking about WHERE that -regen is. It honestly sounds like every defense (which makes no sense to begin with btw, as even in bots, it's still there so what do you care), but sounds like this is only being defended by petless MM desires. Otherwise, there really is NO argument on this. Unless you, and the devs are saying that the bots would be *too good* if they had the -regen, which since the amount as is is nerfed already anyway, which not one person from what I've read has said that. Unless a dev says that specifically, there is no reason to not keep the -regen in the bots.

[Wavicle]

It's not going to happen without a good reason. Since the bots now perform Better either on teams or solo, with or without the -Regen, it's probably just not going to happen.

"Because it's different and I don't like it" isn't actually a good reason.

[Sovera]

-regen matters on AVs/GMs, the 0.01% content in the game. Even on a TF we spend 59 minutes fighting everything but an AV, and then the last minute we fight an AV.

 

Don't want to use your personal attacks? Pick envenomed blades. The AV is still dying in a minute. Or 30 seconds if lore pets are used.

 

 

The desire to have -regen stems simply from something that was taken and not because it is -that- useful.

[ScarySai]

12 minutes ago, tiberius0476 said:

But if you did it by ignoring all of the MM personal robotics attacks, then I'm also right:

Well, no, you're wrong, but let's get into that.

 

If I wasn't a trappermind intentionally not using poison trap to prove a point, and was a set like storm, it would speed things along to have that -200 regen attack, if you can field it without compromising much, of course. Something like storm would also be putting out much more dps than my handicapped trapper would as a baseline.

 

I do agree that personals should have maybe a little more raw killing power instead of being turned into glorified debuffs, but what we have now is serviceable, especially with procs.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It's not going to happen without a good reason. Since the bots now perform Better either on teams or solo, with or without the -Regen, it's probably just not going to happen.

"Because it's different and I don't like it" isn't actually a good reason.

That's not the reason if you've been listening. Because now, to keep the -regen, you have to get and use the personal attacks. Taking away from other powers, and costing a LOT more end to keep it as well. Especially in the aoe, which makes the least amount of sense especially given the MM end costs on it.

[ScarySai]

You do realize they weren't rebalanced with the assumption you'd take all the personals, right?

 

If you don't want them, don't take them. You can big game hunt just fine either way. (Vids should be done processing in 20ish.)

Edited October 16, 2022 by ScarySai

[Tacheyon]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Again, we're not talking about the bots MM overall, we're talking about WHERE that -regen is. It honestly sounds like every defense (which makes no sense to begin with btw, as even in bots, it's still there so what do you care), but sounds like this is only being defended by petless MM desires. Otherwise, there really is NO argument on this. Unless you, and the devs are saying that the bots would be *too good* if they had the -regen, which since the amount as is is nerfed already anyway, which not one person from what I've read has said that. Unless a dev says that specifically, there is no reason to not keep the -regen in the bots.

 

Ok, so you clearly have a fixation that -regen needs to stay on the Bots because you don't want to take the personal attacks.  I get it.  Personal attacks suck a lot of END out of your rotation/budget for other powers.  But you are taking it really personal it seems.

I am playing around with the Mercs/Necros/Ninjas seeing if I want/need to take all the attacks or just a couple and if it'll make a difference.  I already know that I can't take all of them so in the case of Mercs I could be losing out on a 3-10% damage buff.  Necros I'll probably lose more with the extra summons that their personal attacks bring (not sure about Ninjas as I didn't see a bunch of extra crits).

But I did see all those Pets doing a lot more then right now in live even Bots.  So right now I consider what the Devs are doing a Gain for MM's all around (and not as you say for Petless MM's "desires").  What the Devs are trying to do is promote a Base line enjoyment for all MM's by making sure the pets are all on a mostly equal footing.  And in doing so promote more build variety then ever before.