Focused Feedback: Power Level Availability Changes

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:34 PM, Troo said:

Question @The Curator: Do the level changes impact just players or mobs as well?

 

credit @Greycat

 

 

I think many would like this as long as it doesn't bring down the other power. (nearly averaging the two is a likely outcome of such a request being granted)

 

Ooh, I like this.  Will level 8 Warriors have Pendulum?

[thunderforce]

On 10/10/2022 at 3:39 PM, Parabola said:

But surely the inexperienced player is going to think 'waiting for my one attack to recharge is boring and there's another attack right there that I skipped so I'll take that next level'? Making terrible build decisions like not taking enough attacks and then getting bored with the game is just as much of a risk now I think.

On reflection I think I agree with this. Taking a slow-cycling attack at level 1 is a problem there will be a very early opportunity to address.

[WindDemon21]

17 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

On reflection I think I agree with this. Taking a slow-cycling attack at level 1 is a problem there will be a very early opportunity to address.

So they still take it. No one is forcing you to skip the tier 1, but we WERE forced to TAKE the tier 1 before. More options are always better.

 

Still wishing we can choose the first 3 tiers from the primary at level 1 and pools opened at 2. Would also help solve other issues I mentioned ealier, such as mind/grav control, blap builds etc.

Edited October 12, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Tacheyon]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:16 PM, Shadeknight said:

If TFs become faster, is that not a good result?

 

The only TF that needs to be done faster (heck maybe even a re-work) is Synapse.  All those Defeat All missions against Clockwork with only up to level 20 powers?  There is a reason I only do that when it's WST.

 

All the other ones you can (for the most part) stealth and skip all the fights to get to the glowie/boss and ATT your team.  And aside from Synapse I enjoy doing the TF's.

 

But I can see that having T9 Nukes in the midgame TF's Yin, Moonfire) are going to make a lot of people just sit at the entrance and wait for the Blaster/Corr/Def (maybe a MM now) to run through and clear in like 2 mins.  I think that needs to be addressed.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Tacheyon said:

 

The only TF that needs to be done faster (heck maybe even a re-work) is Synapse.  All those Defeat All missions against Clockwork with only up to level 20 powers?  There is a reason I only do that when it's WST.

 

All the other ones you can (for the most part) stealth and skip all the fights to get to the glowie/boss and ATT your team.  And aside from Synapse I enjoy doing the TF's.

 

But I can see that having T9 Nukes in the midgame TF's Yin, Moonfire) are going to make a lot of people just sit at the entrance and wait for the Blaster/Corr/Def (maybe a MM now) to run through and clear in like 2 mins.  I think that needs to be addressed.

Well if they kept the +5 powers would mean you'd have your tier 7 secondary and tier 8 primary for synapse. Would help a little for it.

[thunderforce]

3 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

So they still take it. No one is forcing you to skip the tier 1, but we WERE forced to TAKE the tier 1 before. More options are always better.

Errrr, you did notice I was _agreeing_ with the T1 change?

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

Errrr, you did notice I was _agreeing_ with the T1 change?

You said you agreed with parabola, who said they thought it would be bad for inexperienced players who would pick the tier 2 instead of the tier 1 and feel they were waiting too long to attack again. You then said they could address it early (ie meaning respec or leveling to 2)

 

Im glad you agree on the change but think you were confused on what parabola said lol. As I gather parabola stated they were against it for *new* players. But I mean, that's still so low and addressed by level 2 anyhow, I think all that would be needed is a help text stating it being the *suggested* first option for a new player.

[laudwic]

We keep talking about it, but has anyone run a Yin in the test server to test the concerns about earlier access to the nukes?  I would really be interested in the results of those runs. 

 

I ran a pickup group Yin on Torchbearer this last weekend with my 50 Symphony/Energy Dom just to get an idea since it keeps coming up here and get the badge.  Admittedly, I have this one set up well with IOs.  In the current incarnation of the game, I was able to keep Permadom going the entire task force.  With that, I still had Confounding Chant doing Superior DoT (slotted with Positron's Blast) covering an area as large as or almost as large as a nuke.  I was covering entire groups.  Sure, I didn't take them down with that shot, but they were all stunned, including bosses, and the DoT would take a very good percentage of the hit points.  Close to all for minions.  The point is we can already do a heck of a lot, especially when we are exemplored (sp) down.  My humble brag aside, I'm sure there are other examples.  My expectation is that the Nukes are not going to be well slotted, not have much recharge, and normal secondary slotting (like lower endurance cost) is going to suffer from lack of slots.  If that is the case, I do not see earlier access to nukes as a big change.  Mastermind final upgrade is more of a bonus in my mind, but that is still not enough for me to stop this change or to increase HP at the mid/late 20s to compensate for the change. My knee jerk is that the advantage gained by lowering the level in which these powers can be acquired is not going to be as much of a power boast as compared to exempolored (sp) down characters already create and will be mitigated to some extent by the lack of enhancement slots as, in my experience, Primary/Secondary powers are more slot heavy than pool powers.  Less slots less improvements to powers.    I don't see this change being extreme enough to make a need to do the additional work to balance this the same way I do not see the additional work necessary to balance the game to IO (especially sets) instead of SOs.  I do think the newer content, especially the high level content is balanced to IOs.

 

I would really like to see some folks actually run this to see if the concerns really justify increasing the hit points or other ways to increase the difficulty before we do it. 

 

Can someone with a lot more contacts than me, and less family responsivities, organize a few runs?  

 

Side Note: Imagine if this change goes into effect before the Halloween event is over.  You are going to have a ton of respecs cursing because they have to clear out all the temporary power Halloween Costumes while rearranging their power tray doing a respec.  .  . 

[Luminara]

20 minutes ago, laudwic said:

Side Note: Imagine if this change goes into effect before the Halloween event is over.  You are going to have a ton of respecs cursing because they have to clear out all the temporary power Halloween Costumes while rearranging their power tray doing a respec.  .  . 

 

/cleartray

[Parabola]

34 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

You said you agreed with parabola, who said they thought it would be bad for inexperienced players who would pick the tier 2 instead of the tier 1 and feel they were waiting too long to attack again. You then said they could address it early (ie meaning respec or leveling to 2)

 

Im glad you agree on the change but think you were confused on what parabola said lol. As I gather parabola stated they were against it for *new* players. But I mean, that's still so low and addressed by level 2 anyhow, I think all that would be needed is a help text stating it being the *suggested* first option for a new player.

Errm no. I was responding to someone else who was worried about new players. Reread my post, I'm saying I don't think it's an issue, or not a new issue anyway.

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Errm no. I was responding to someone else who was worried about new players. Reread my post, I'm saying I don't think it's an issue, or not a new issue anyway.

Maybe, guess wording, punctuation, and the like is causing most of this confusion. Regardless, if a new player picks the tier 2 it's still not much to get to level 2 to pick up the tier 1. And while its been 18 years I do remember no matter what wanting to get to level 2 at least when trying a game out to see what it's like, so I don't think it would cause any new player to quit before reaching level 2.

[VioLight]

I think I would rather have every character forced to start at 50 than this.  

 

Do not like. 

[BrandX]

10 minutes ago, VioLight said:

I think I would rather have every character forced to start at 50 than this.  

 

Do not like. 

 

Why?  Thought it was nice that could make it all the way to level 32 with nothing but Primary and Secondary powers, but really, this isn't going to change power picks, just change order that you may decide to pick them in, and even then, I believe it doesn't stop you from taking those powers when you used to be able to take them.

[Wavicle]

Fear of change is totally natural.

[thunderforce]

8 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Maybe, guess wording, punctuation, and the like is causing most of this confusion.

Neither I nor Parabola seem to have experienced any confusion about what either of us wrote.

[Zect]

I have mixed feelings on this change. On one hand, the rationale behind "being able to always pick a power from the primary or secondary" is a good one. It also means that players who do not AE powerlevel are less disadvantaged than those who do, in the sense that certain sets are significantly less enjoyable to play before key powers are obtained - not only do players who enjoy non-AE content level slower, they spend more time in the less-fun part of the leveling sequence.

 

On the other hand, the ability to skip the T1 from the secondary disproportionately benefits some sets over others. Corruptors (which are already an S-tier AT) can now skip weak T1 powers from their secondary eg. infrigidate, time crawl and essentially gain a power slot. Hopefully, the developers will take note of which AT/powerset combos benefit the most from being able to skip T1 powers, and balance them appropriately so that they do not become too powerful.

[BrandX]

12 minutes ago, Zect said:

I have mixed feelings on this change. On one hand, the rationale behind "being able to always pick a power from the primary or secondary" is a good one. It also means that players who do not AE powerlevel are less disadvantaged than those who do, in the sense that certain sets are significantly less enjoyable to play before key powers are obtained - not only do players who enjoy non-AE content level slower, they spend more time in the less-fun part of the leveling sequence.

 

On the other hand, the ability to skip the T1 from the secondary disproportionately benefits some sets over others. Corruptors (which are already an S-tier AT) can now skip weak T1 powers from their secondary eg. infrigidate, time crawl and essentially gain a power slot. Hopefully, the developers will take note of which AT/powerset combos benefit the most from being able to skip T1 powers, and balance them appropriately so that they do not become too powerful.

 

Isn't Time Crawl needed to apply the delayed effect, that enhances other abilities?  If anything those powers that required Time Crawl should've had better debuffs when used with Time Crawl.  Infrigidate is a Proc Bomb.

 

But my thought on this, is the same as always, make those terrible choice Tier 1's, hard choices 🙂

 

Though, I can think of some sets, where that may not be much of a trade off as one thinks.  Still can't select a power pool until level 4.  I know my Archery/Tactical Blaster skips Snap Shot and Fistful of Arrows, but with this change, I'm stuck with one of those or keep Electrified Net Arrow and no slots to allocate to any of them. 

 

I felt most of the terrible T1 picks went to the melee/ranged sets.

[ivanhedgehog]

15 hours ago, Tacheyon said:

 

The only TF that needs to be done faster (heck maybe even a re-work) is Synapse.  All those Defeat All missions against Clockwork with only up to level 20 powers?  There is a reason I only do that when it's WST.

 

All the other ones you can (for the most part) stealth and skip all the fights to get to the glowie/boss and ATT your team.  And aside from Synapse I enjoy doing the TF's.

 

But I can see that having T9 Nukes in the midgame TF's Yin, Moonfire) are going to make a lot of people just sit at the entrance and wait for the Blaster/Corr/Def (maybe a MM now) to run through and clear in like 2 mins.  I think that needs to be addressed.

It doesnt need to be addressed. without a lot of slotting they wont do much. Brutes run through these missions as it is, do they need to be nerfed?

[ivanhedgehog]

13 hours ago, laudwic said:

We keep talking about it, but has anyone run a Yin in the test server to test the concerns about earlier access to the nukes?  I would really be interested in the results of those runs. 

 

I ran a pickup group Yin on Torchbearer this last weekend with my 50 Symphony/Energy Dom just to get an idea since it keeps coming up here and get the badge.  Admittedly, I have this one set up well with IOs.  In the current incarnation of the game, I was able to keep Permadom going the entire task force.  With that, I still had Confounding Chant doing Superior DoT (slotted with Positron's Blast) covering an area as large as or almost as large as a nuke.  I was covering entire groups.  Sure, I didn't take them down with that shot, but they were all stunned, including bosses, and the DoT would take a very good percentage of the hit points.  Close to all for minions.  The point is we can already do a heck of a lot, especially when we are exemplored (sp) down.  My humble brag aside, I'm sure there are other examples.  My expectation is that the Nukes are not going to be well slotted, not have much recharge, and normal secondary slotting (like lower endurance cost) is going to suffer from lack of slots.  If that is the case, I do not see earlier access to nukes as a big change.  Mastermind final upgrade is more of a bonus in my mind, but that is still not enough for me to stop this change or to increase HP at the mid/late 20s to compensate for the change. My knee jerk is that the advantage gained by lowering the level in which these powers can be acquired is not going to be as much of a power boast as compared to exempolored (sp) down characters already create and will be mitigated to some extent by the lack of enhancement slots as, in my experience, Primary/Secondary powers are more slot heavy than pool powers.  Less slots less improvements to powers.    I don't see this change being extreme enough to make a need to do the additional work to balance this the same way I do not see the additional work necessary to balance the game to IO (especially sets) instead of SOs.  I do think the newer content, especially the high level content is balanced to IOs.

 

I would really like to see some folks actually run this to see if the concerns really justify increasing the hit points or other ways to increase the difficulty before we do it. 

 

Can someone with a lot more contacts than me, and less family responsivities, organize a few runs?  

 

Side Note: Imagine if this change goes into effect before the Halloween event is over.  You are going to have a ton of respecs cursing because they have to clear out all the temporary power Halloween Costumes while rearranging their power tray doing a respec.  .  . 

yin is 20-25. t9 can be taken at 28. It cant be 5 slotted by 31. I dont see many nukes going off before it can be taken. or is there some way it can be leveraged?

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

yin is 20-25. t9 can be taken at 28. It cant be 5 slotted by 31. I dont see many nukes going off before it can be taken. or is there some way it can be leveraged?

T9 can be taken at 26.

[ivanhedgehog]

Just now, Wavicle said:

T9 can be taken at 26.

yin is 20-25. you might get a 1 slotted nuke but It isnt some sort of I win button. ( i did  a new character on test and leveled it but I must be mistaken on the level, Ty for correcting that)

[Wavicle]

9 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

yin is 20-25. you might get a 1 slotted nuke but It isnt some sort of I win button. ( i did  a new character on test and leveled it but I must be mistaken on the level, Ty for correcting that)

Level 50s will have their 6 slotted nukes as low as level 21. I think there’s some enhancement devaluation though, right? I’m not really worried about it. Turn up the difficulty!

[Doc_Scorpion]

13 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

yin is 20-25. t9 can be taken at 28. It cant be 5 slotted by 31. I dont see many nukes going off before it can be taken. or is there some way it can be leveraged?

You don't understand how slots works - once you get them, they're always there.  Even when exemped down...  So the problem isn't a low-30's character, it's the 40's and 50's.

That being said, with this change you get your T9 at level 26 (not 28)...  +2 slots at 27, +2 slots at 29, +3 slots 31.  So, in theory and with great sacrifice you could have it slotted as early as 31.
 

 

13 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Level 50s will have their 6 slotted nukes as low as level 21. I think there’s some enhancement devaluation though, right?

You can use lower level standard IO's, or you can use attuned set IO's and dodge the penalties that come with exemping down.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Doc_Scorpion
OK, I was wrong.

[Marbing]

29 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You can use lower level standard IO's, or you can use attuned set IO's and dodge the penalties that come with exemping down

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attuned

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Exemplar_Effects_on_Enhancements

 

For reference. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Marbing

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You can use lower level standard IO's, or you can use attuned set IO's and dodge the penalties that come with exemping down.

 

That's not how the exemplar mechanic works.  It applies a reduction to total values.  If you exemplar a level 50 character down to 10, a level 50 Accuracy SO (you couldn't slot a level 10 SO in an attempt to bypass the exemplar mechanic, the game doesn't allow it) will be worth 8.2%, not 33.3%.  Slotting a level 10 Accuracy IO under the same conditions does not grant the nominal 11.7% Accuracy, it grants 2.9%.  Same thing happens with attuned IOs, set IOs, ATOs, everything.

 

 

Replacing that level 10 Accuracy IO with a level 50 Accuracy IO results in a 10.3% increase in Accuracy.

 

 

The mechanic was specifically designed to function in this manner to compensate for the increased number of slots available to higher level characters.  The enhancements have a lower individual value than a native-level character's enhancements, but the character has a larger pool of slots with enhancements slotted, creating a degree of parity between the higher and lower level characters.  All slotted enhancements are subject to the exemplar reduction, and attempting to bypass the reduction by slotting lower level enhancements just makes the exemplared character worse than the slot-starved native level character.

 

You're shooting yourself in the foot if you do this.  Don't do it.