Change name of Beta: Focused Feedback

[Troo]

Asking for feedback and getting feedback has been problematic. New players get trounced, existing players get pitted against each other, and veterans with tons or experience get dismissed without explanation for participating at the wrong juncture in the process.

 

Just call it "Focused Bug Testing" or something else.

 

 

I'd suggest removing the 'quote' feature from that section if possible but realize that's not realistic. Players responding to players is sometimes helpful but it's also very often the flash point where things go off the rails.

[PeregrineFalcon]

As a possible addition to your suggestion. Allow for one post per player. Just one.

 

They can edit said post with their testing results and reactions to points brought up, but overall it should have the effect of making the threads a lot shorter and easier for the devs to read.

[Glacier Peak]

It's quite the opposite in my experience, so I'm not supportive of this suggestion. 

[Troo]

Yeah it's just not fair to ask a GM to aggressively moderate feedback if the title is Feedback.

Arguments and unruly behavior can be easier to parse.

Determining what's on-topic or valuable feedback can just be problematic.

It pits the GM against players who may have spent a lot of time on their feedback just to have it removed without explanation and sometimes by mistake.

[Glacier Peak]

It is fair to ask that. 

 

Determining what is on topic and moderating it is literally the job of a GM.

 

GMs are humans, they have made mistakes. When an issue arises that requires a second opinion, that occurs and whatever posts are effected are adjudicated appropriately.

 

Leave the moderating to the GMs.

[biostem]

The problem is that "general feedback" is not really what they're after - saying "I don't like it" *is* feedback, but it's neither useful nor informative.  What they need is a sort of feedback form (see below), and make it explicit that they don't want simple "it's good" or "it's bad" kind of comments...

 

 

Sample form:

 

Name of power(s) or content tested:

When tested:

Level, AT, primary & secondary of character used:

Slotting type: DOs/SOs/IOs/HOs/Mixed

How long did you spend testing this content:

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by biostem

[GM Impervium]

Since this is a suggestion for the forums more than the game itself, moved the topic to Website suggestions and feedback.

As an aside, we DO label each thread in the Beta section "Focused" feedback, so the expectations are already stated. If people choose to ignore that, as well as the "About this forum" sticky, well... That's when the GMs have some work to do.

Per the OP itself, and subsequent ideas throughout the thread, there's certainly some validity to the thought process leading up to ideas like this. Maybe next time (and this isn't a promise, I'd have to get the leads ok on this), we can have an UNfocused feedback thread that wouldn't be so heavily moderated, which would allow people to vent, gush, and debate to their hearts' content without their posts getting eaten by the server hamsters (though the CoC would still apply).

[Six-Six]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

The problem is that "general feedback" is not really what they're after - saying "I don't like it" *is* feedback, but it's neither useful nor informative.  What they need is a sort of feedback form (see below), and make it explicit that they don't want simple "it's good" or "it's bad" kind of comments...

 

Also, feedback is a lot like advice: just because it was given doesn't necessarily mean it will be followed. 
 

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Since this is a suggestion for the forums more than the game itself, moved the topic to Website suggestions and feedback.

As an aside, we DO label each thread in the Beta section "Focused" feedback, so the expectations are already stated. If people choose to ignore that, as well as the "About this forum" sticky, well... That's when the GMs have some work to do.

Per the OP itself, and subsequent ideas throughout the thread, there's certainly some validity to the thought process leading up to ideas like this. Maybe next time (and this isn't a promise, I'd have to get the leads ok on this), we can have an UNfocused feedback thread that wouldn't be so heavily moderated, which would allow people to vent, gush, and debate to their hearts' content without their posts getting eaten by the server hamsters (though the CoC would still apply).

 

GREAT IDEA!

[Doc_Scorpion]

18 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Per the OP itself, and subsequent ideas throughout the thread, there's certainly some validity to the thought process leading up to ideas like this. Maybe next time (and this isn't a promise, I'd have to get the leads ok on this), we can have an UNfocused feedback thread that wouldn't be so heavily moderated, which would allow people to vent, gush, and debate to their hearts' content without their posts getting eaten by the server hamsters (though the CoC would still apply).

I don't know that I agree.  That doubles my work in trying to keep up with what has and hasn't been tested, what's working and what's not, etc... etc...  It makes the signal to noise level markedly worse than it already is.  If folks want to gripe and complain about a change - well, the General Discussion forum exists.

Let's keep the Beta forums for those of us actually testing the Beta.

[AlwaysAPrice]

20 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Maybe next time (and this isn't a promise, I'd have to get the leads ok on this), we can have an UNfocused feedback thread that wouldn't be so heavily moderated

 

Was just going to suggest this. While another obstacle might just be that the "Focused" is likely initially interpreted by many as not meaning "focused testing" so much as "focus your feedback on this particular topic and not all the other ones", having some threads dedicated to tester-to-tester interaction where people interested in the changes can freely discuss with each other - not the people creating those changes - their thoughts and experiences with what they're testing, to refine their thoughts before submitting their actual test feedback, could help. Or instead of Focused/Unfocused, Focused Testing and Focused Feedback per topic and just let Feedback be feedback and accept that some of it will come from those seeing the proposed changes here for the first time who just want to have their say as participants in this community who will be affected by them, then use Focused Testing as the "I've been on Brainstorm and tested this topic's feature and this is what I observed or think about that experience"-only threads.

[Troo]

If it was called Beta Bug Testing, even then, non-bug concerns and issues would be brought up.

 

Changing the name might remove the expectation that any and all feedback goes here and is then debated.

 

'Focused' is just as subjective and/or ambiguous as 'Feedback'.

[Sirius.Games]

I think the best option is to post the feedback rules at the top instead of linking them. Like the rules basically spell out not to respond to others. To test them on the beta server before responding. Basically the thread is. An amalgamation of violation of what is being asked. 

 

If there's a way to make all responses invisible it may better provide what is being asked since people are having issue because they aren't following the forum rules for FF and in may ways circumventing the forum rules by posting things like unfocused feedback.

 

We're all able to beta test and like every beta test there are rules to follow. Feedback can't be wrong, but you can disagree with suggestions.

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, Sirius.Games said:

If there's a way to make all responses invisible it may better provide what is being asked

 

That's not a bad idea either.

[Lines]

On 10/10/2022 at 5:12 AM, GM Impervium said:

 Maybe next time (and this isn't a promise, I'd have to get the leads ok on this), we can have an UNfocused feedback thread that wouldn't be so heavily moderated, which would allow people to vent, gush, and debate to their hearts' content without their posts getting eaten by the server hamsters (though the CoC would still apply).

 

My opinion would be that the devs should make the threads they want, and anyone else should make the threads they want. This is pretty much what happens anyway and I think that's fine. I feel that an official 'unfocused feedback' thread is the same as a thread titled 'devs, y'all can ignore this one'.  Any points made there would be more likely to get their attention in the Suggestions and Feedback forum.

 

I don't think devs need to be responsible for making forums, when this is already a forum that suits the need.

[Troo]

8 hours ago, Lines said:

I feel that an official 'unfocused feedback' thread is the same as a thread titled 'devs, y'all can ignore this one'.  Any points made there would be more likely to get their attention in the Suggestions and Feedback forum.

 

I totally read this incorrectly by missing one word.

 

"I feel that an official 'unfocused feedback' thread is the same as a thread titled 'devs, y'all can ignore this one'.  Any points made there would be more likely to get their attention than the Suggestions and Feedback forum. " mic drop.. 😬

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Troo

[ScarySai]

Why is a name change neccesary? Pretty much entails what one would expect from a private server's beta testing.

 

I personally have yet to feel as if I was shut down in any of those threads, but I also tend to back up what I say ingame.

[Troo]

I'd guess the number of hidden posts, warnings, and bans in the beta feedback topics is disproportional. Just a wild guess.

It takes up time moderating and going through posts (viewable and hidden) looking for desired feedback.

The term 'Feedback" is vague.

Player on Player policing over vague terminology.

Some players get discouraged due to a poor experience providing feedback.

 

Maybe it is counterintuitive to title something say "Beta Bug Testing" to get testing & bug reports.

 

[ScarySai]

Maybe stay on topic and don't make stupid arguments that derail the thread, if you're upset about having posts hidden.

[Luminara]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:10 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

As a possible addition to your suggestion. Allow for one post per player. Just one.

 

They can edit said post with their testing results and reactions to points brought up, but overall it should have the effect of making the threads a lot shorter and easier for the devs to read.

 

Stifling the freedom to speak isn't a solution.  Taking away peoples' liberties isn't an answer.  Excising the right to converse, discuss, debate, and even argue vehemently won't fix any problems.  All this would do is foment unrest and incite rebellion.  Open up any history book and see how well this tactic worked for institutions which attempted to use it.

 

It would also make more work for the developers, because instead of having the mods keep a hand on threads, the developers would have to dig through every post to locate specific feedback amongst the edited-in arguments.  Right now, they can rely on the mods to keep threads loosely on topic, log in with a secondary account and see the results and relevant feedback very quickly and easily.  With this approach, it would be like flipping through the unabridged version of The Stand to locate specific passages, without having read it before.

[Doc_Scorpion]

12 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Maybe stay on topic and don't make stupid arguments that derail the thread, if you're upset about having posts hidden.

Giving and granting that I've been guilty of participating in such derails myself...  Yeah.  The problem here isn't the system, the problem here is the people.  And the problem we're currently experiencing is a small number of individuals getting butthurt because their off topic and against the rules posts got hidden.  (A number of whom are also experiencing paranoid delusions that they are being deliberately and individually targeted and excluded from some mythical "club".)

Yes, there were some people unfairly caught up in the dragnet, but...  That's just life.  Mods are human and make mistakes.  (BTDT)

[Troo]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:34 PM, ScarySai said:

Maybe stay on topic and don't make stupid arguments that derail the thread, if you're upset about having posts hidden.

 

That seems to have been the plan to date and it would seem there is most definitely room for improvement.

 

Maybe you feel it is working just fine. I disagree.

 

As for being upset, the only time I've trooly been upset is when posts which are on topic and took more time to put together get swept up in purges. That is frustrating.