Most Damage Oriented Tank?

[Unclemarty]

There has been lots of discussion about maximizing survivability on Tankers but what would a Tank build look like if it aimed to do the opposite? The idea is to build for maximum damage instead of toughness. 

 

Ignoring the obvious answer of "choose another AT" here are some initial thoughts:

• It would probably be a proc heavy build, sacrificing set bonuses for damage procs.
• Spines/Fire Brutes are common farmers, so would Spines/Fire tanks be the highest damage output?
• How would the build look different if it focused on single target dmg vs AOE?

[tidge]

I went Shield Defense/Battle Axe to do "pretty much" what you ask. I did not want to sacrifice completely on survivability, but there are slots that could be pulled (some Impervium Armor Psi Resists, possibly a Healing IO from True Grit, I know others don't mind skimping on Taunt slotting)  without compromising too much on Endurance or Recharge bonuses (necessary to keep up the AoE attacks, including Shield Charge). For MAXIMUM DAMAGE, those slots should go into Build Up (to improve recharge... I don't think anything boosts a solo Tanker's Damage output as much as always using Build Up) This build does not include Hasten, nor does it include Epic/Patron pools.

 

If the intent is only to play end-game content, I suppose some compromises (alternative choices) could be made on low-level attack slotting, but I think it would be necessary to sacrifice multiple powers and slots to leverage into more AoE attacks (such as from Leviathan Mastery). I briefly looked into Epic resistance debuffs but I didn't see anything that I felt would be up quickly enough to increase damage dealt. For me, I like having almost all my offense available for the the Penny Yin TF

 

My current build:

Spoiler

Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Battle Axe
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Concealment
------------
Level 1:        Deflection    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
 (*) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP: Level 50
 (*) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance: Level 50
 (*) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
 (*) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance: Level 40

 

Level 1:        Chop    
 (A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance: Level 50+5
 (*) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage (Negative): Level 50
 (*) Hecatomb - Damage: Level 50+5

 

Level 2:        Battle Agility    
 (A) Reactive Defenses - Defense: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage: Level 50

 

Level 4:        Gash    
 (A) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
 (*) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Superior Gauntleted Fist - RechargeTime/+Absorb: Level 50

 

Level 6:        Mighty Leap    
(A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50+5

Level 8:        Weaken Resolve    
 (A) HamiO:Lysosome Exposure (Accuracy, Defense Debuff, ToHit Debuff): Level 53
 (*) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage: Level 30
 (*) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage: Level 50

 

Level 10:    Active Defense    
 (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50+5
 (*) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 12:    Phalanx Fighting    
 (A) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
 (*) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 14:    Against All Odds    
 (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 16:    Taunt    
 (A) Mocking Beratement - Taunt: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge/Range: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Range: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Recharge: Level 50

 

Level 18:    True Grit    
 (A) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance: Level 50+5
 (*) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 50
 (*) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance: Level 50
 (*) Panacea - Heal: Level 50+5
 (*) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
 (*) Healing IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 20:    Pendulum    
 (A) Multi-Strike - Accuracy/Endurance: Level 50+5
 (*) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
 (*) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage: Level 50
 (*) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage: Level 50
 (*) Superior Might of the Tanker - Recharge/Chance for +Res(All): Level 50
 (*) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20

Level 22:    Wall of Force    
 (A) Javelin Volley - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50+5
 (*) Javelin Volley - Chance of Damage (Lethal): Level 50
 (*) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20
 (*) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage (Energy): Level 50
 (*) Bombardment - Chance of Damage (Fire): Level 50

 

Level 24:    Shield Charge    
 (A) Mocking Beratement - Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Mocking Beratement - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
 (*) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
 (*) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage: Level 50
 (*) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal): Level 50
(*) Force Feedback - Chance of Global Recharge: Level 50

 

Level 26:    Grant Cover    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/RechargeTime: Level 50
 (*) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50

 

Level 28:    Axe Cyclone    
 (A) Fury of the Gladiator - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50+5
 (*) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 50
 (*) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage: Level 30
 (*) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage: Level 50
 (*) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
 (*) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 20

 

Level 30:    Cleave    
 (A) Armageddon - Damage: Level 50+5
 (*) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge: Level 50+5
 (*) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50+5
 (*) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50+5
 (*) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance: Level 50+5

 

Level 32:    Build Up    
 (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 50
 (A)Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 35:    Combat Teleport    
 (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Range / Endurance: Level 50+5

 

Level 38:    Infiltration    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 41:    Unleash Potential    
 (A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb: Level 50

 

Level 44:    One with the Shield    
(A) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance: Level 30

 

Level 47:    Maneuvers    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50

 

Level 49:    Stealth    
 (*) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All): Level 50

 

Level 1:    Brawl    
 (A) HO Nucleolus (Accuracy/Damage) Level 53

Level 1:    Gauntlet    

Level 1:        Sprint    
 (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50+5

Level 2:        Rest    
 (A) Interrupt Reduction IO: Level 50+5

Level 4 :    Athletic Run    

 

Level 2:        Swift    
 (A) Run Speed IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 2:        Health    
 (A) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40
 (*) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
 (*) Numina's Convalesence - Heal: Level 50

 

Level 2:        Hurdle    
 (A) Jumping IO: Level 50+5

 

Level 2:    Stamina    
 (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
 (*) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
 (*) Power Transfer - %Heal: Level 50

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I should remark, my attempts to "do as much damage as possible" should be interpreted (for this Tanker) as "fewest button mashes to defeat as many mobs as possible".

Edited January 16, 2023 by tidge
cleaned up formatting

[ZemX]

You might have a look over at the Trapdoor testing thread in the Scrapper forum.  Despite where it's located, it includes results for plenty of different ATs.

 

Caveat: You can't JUST build for damage or you won't survive the test.  So maybe this isn't exactly what you're asking either.  But a tanker trying to ignore survivability has to reckon with the fact you're taunting not just everything you hit, but everything around that too, even if you turn off taunt auras.

 

In any case, skimming that thread I see some combos with Fire Melee and Claws doing well lately.  Bio, Fire, and Rad are common primaries.  That test really rewards a combination of good AoE and strong ST rather than a laser focus on just one or the other since it involves taking out a whole map of x8 sized spawns and finishing with an AV.

[PLVRIZR]

@Sovera's "Brunker" (Fire/Martial Arts) is probably the best template for damage output and survivability.  I made one (Marshall Mayhem) and he's ridiculous.  Some will also chime in with procc'd out /RadM and /DarkM.  Regardless of primary and secondary, you have several high damage Epic pools, as well.

Edited January 16, 2023 by PLVRIZR
reworded

[Troo]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:29 AM, Unclemarty said:

There has been lots of discussion about maximizing survivability on Tankers but what would a Tank build look like if it aimed to do the opposite? The idea is to build for maximum damage instead of toughness. 

 

Ignoring the obvious answer of "choose another AT" here are some initial thoughts:

• It would probably be a proc heavy build, sacrificing set bonuses for damage procs.
• Spines/Fire Brutes are common farmers, so would Spines/Fire tanks be the highest damage output?
• How would the build look different if it focused on single target dmg vs AOE?

 

Do you want high sustained damage or chunky big hits?

 

Either way it is likely going to involve Fiery Aura (for Fiery Embrace) or maybe Bio Armour (for Offensive Adaptation).

 

Fiery Embrace + Build Up on a damage build can add a good bit of juice to a lot of options for chunky damage for something like Energy Melee.

However other options could outpace over time with smooth consistent damage.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Troo

[Gobbledigook]

Bio/EM for single target. SS or BA or FireM etc with Bio for more AoE. Rad/SS is a good trash clearer but Bio is up there with it and better for single targets.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Gobbledegook

[C U R S E]

Shield/Dark with Against all Odds and Sould Drain, with all your powers procced out is insane. To have all that survivability of a tanker and put out absurd damage is OP'd. 

[Mythical Creature]

My Stone Armor / Radiation melee tank seems to do a lot more damage than many of my other tankers. Something about the combination of the contaminated status effect, the increased damage from brimstone armor, or the double damage auras just makes enemies melt. My survivability doesn't seem to be diminished at all, I am still fully survivable even though I am pumping out a decent amount of dps. I struggle to enjoy bio armor because it doesn't quite provide me enough survivability to make up for the damage toggle, stone armor after the changes feels like I get my damage mode without having to sacrifice survivability. That is exactly what I like on a tanker. 

[Zect]

You've asked a question the forumites will struggle to answer. Traditionally, tanker expertise has been laser-focused on turtling up at all cost, as opposed to leveraging tankers' superior defense scalar to enable a balanced combination of defense and offense or trade-off for maximum damage.

 

I suspect that the top contender is going to be fire/ss, or possibly bio/ss. SS is infamously overpowered; double-stacked rage makes AOO and soul drain look weak. Fire/ also has the quirk that burn is usable as both an aoe and ST attack.

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Zect said:

You've asked a question the forumites will struggle to answer.

 

I lol'd so hard.

[C U R S E]

Hey Zect I would challenge your top contender anytime. If you have one let's put it to the test.

[Hjarki]

I run Bio/FIre and it's very solid damage.

 

I don't think the burst damage powers are particularly strong. In a fire farm, you can just endlessly much reds and keep yourself near cap based solely on drops. In standard play, you're normally going to have a team able to buff you. Tankers also have relatively few ways to use Build Up-style powers effectively since they (mostly) lack big alpha strike powers.

 

In terms of procs, Tankers get better return from +damage than non-purple procs. So 'proc monsters' normally don't work particularly well. So you end up with decisions like "do a trivial amount of additional damage or get +10% more recharge" that normally end up being decided in favor of recharge unless you're in a situation where you can customize your defenses with extreme precision.

[Neiska]

@Unclemarty In my view, this is a multi-layered question. 

 

By "most damage" do you mean Single target? Vs Elite Bosses? AVs and Giant Monsters? Aoe? Are we taking damage types/resists/built in debuffs into account? 

 

I am by no means a big name in the Tanker community, but I have played several and I will add what insight that I can, as Tankers are my second favorite AT after Masterminds.

 

I think everyone would agree that it goes without saying, pairing a primary set with a secondary set that boost damage would be the forerunner. So, off the top of my head, for armor sets that immediately puts Shield, Bio, and Fire as the primary Armor sets. With Radiation also being worthy of consideration.

 

Here are their highlights, focusing primarily on damage since that is the focus.

Shield has the fantastic Against All Odds, as well as Shield Charge for a hard hitting AOE that pairs very well with secondaries without a hard hitting AoE, but no damage aura. Damage auras do build up, particularly if you slot them with damage procs or other effects. Downside about shield is there is no heal in the set, but often it doesn't really need one either.

 

Bio Armor has offensive stance, and a damage aura, and can be kitted out many ways. Personally, I find focusing on recharge best with Bio. And its built in -regen debuff shouldn't be neglected where hard targets are concerned. The downside about Bio is a bit clutch to level, until you make that breakpoint in recharge where you can juggle your defensive active abilities. Until that point it can feel more like a moped than a tank, but once you reach that point you can be godlike. Another downside about Bio is that much of its defensive power is dependent on how many targets are hit. So against single targets your buffs won't be stacked as much.

 

Fire has build up and a damage aura, but personally I am not a fan of Fire Armor. (It's solid, I just dislike its flow. But that is entirely personal preference.)

 

Radiation has Meltdown for a damage boost, it also has Ground Zero for an Aoe which can hit like a truck. It does have an aura, but its more for debuffing than damage. But it does have Radiation Therapy as well, making it an Armor set with offensive tools as well as defensive.

 

Now for secondaries - 

For single target Energy Melee is the top pick bar none.

For AoE, Dark and Fire Melee

For a more "balanced" approach, I would say Radiation, Savage, and Super Strength are good or better in both aspects.

 

Super Strength is strong if you don't mind the rage crash, but that can be mitigated with procs. To me it feels clunky though.

 

Energy Melee is second to none in the single target category. It has a build up as well, and is also energy based. The Aoe isn't "that" bad either, whirling hands loaded with damage procs is plenty for trash.

 

Dark Melee is fantastic, particularly on a tank with the increased area of effect with shadow punch and a tankers increased target capacity. It also has a few good AoE powers as well, but no real single target hard hitters either. But it does have Soul Drain which stacks very nicely with Against All Odds from Shield, as well as Meltdown.

 

Fire - I can't really provide Indepth insight on this one, I haven't played it since it was updated. But by all accounts, its quite good.

 

Radiation is pretty well balanced. It's energy based, with a build-up, and a mix of AoE and ST. It also has contaminated which isn't bad, but i would consider that more of a bonus than a feature. The downside of Radiation is it can feel slow, like Titan Weapons with long wind-up powers with long animations. But it does feel powerful though.

 

Savage I think is deceptively good. It has a semi-build up, has a fluid playstyle, has a leap attack, a single target attack chain with AoE to spare. The downside is the numbers can be deceptive, as its a spam of dots and bleed damage. So you won't get a single big hit of 600 or anything, but you will see a steady spam of 30-40. The downside about Savage is Hemorrhage is kind of flaky, and it's also a physical set which is the most commonly resisted. But when you compare clear times with other sets, it stands right next to the other popular sets and even exceeds them in some cases.

 

But any of these pairings would perform well. The bigger question is how they prefer to be built (set bonuses vs damage procs), what you are fighting (lots of targets vs fewer harder targets vs one BIG target) and their damage types vs your targets resistances. But here are some of my best pairings were Bio/Energy Melee, Bio/Radiation, Bio/Savage, Shield/Dark, Radiation/Radiation.

 

If I had to narrow it down, I would suggest Bio/Savage or Bio/Energy.

 

Hope this helps, happy tanking!

 

PS - One combination I wanted to try but never got around to, was Radiation Armor and Energy Melee, as they would complement each other VERY well, at least on paper. EM has all the ST and build up, Rad Armor has even more damage with some AOE tools and even heals in the kit. It looked extremely promising in MIDS, but I never actually got around to making one in-game. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Neiska
Added a PS

[Erratic1]

9 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

Shield has the fantastic Against All Odds, as well as Shield Charge for a hard hitting AOE that pairs very well with secondaries without a hard hitting AoE, but no damage aura. Damage auras do build up, particularly if you slot them with damage procs or other effects. Downside about shield is there is no heal in the set, but often it doesn't really need one either.

 

The biggest downside with Shield, as goes damage, is that when you are not fighting a pack, the damage boost from Against All Odds is minimal. 

 

As goes the lack of damage aura...you could pair it with Radiation Melee and get one there. Between the damage aura, splash damage via the Contamination mechanism, and the fact you squeeze a heal out of consuming contamination it might not be a bad pairing, even if a bit endurance intensive.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

The biggest downside with Shield, as goes damage, is that when you are not fighting a pack, the damage boost from Against All Odds is minimal.

 

My Shield Defense Tanker does end up dragging(*1) the scraps from one fight into the next spawn(*2), or timing things such that Build Up is ready for the last few enemies.

 

(*1) Aside from Taunt (power, effects), Axe Cyclone (this is a Battle Axe secondary) helps keeps enemies close.

 

(*2) via Shield Charge and Combat Teleport. I didn't try to fit Fold Space into the build.

[Hjarki]

11 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The biggest downside with Shield, as goes damage, is that when you are not fighting a pack, the damage boost from Against All Odds is minimal. 

 

As goes the lack of damage aura...you could pair it with Radiation Melee and get one there. Between the damage aura, splash damage via the Contamination mechanism, and the fact you squeeze a heal out of consuming contamination it might not be a bad pairing, even if a bit endurance intensive.

Damage Auras are great from the standpoint of convenience and low levels. However, they're not actually all that effective once you're higher level. They don't receive the increased radius/targets that conventional targets do and they don't benefit from recharge reduction.

 

Consider Dragon's Tail. This is about 62.4 damage every 14 + 1.716 secs, or 3.97 dps. It's 16 targets with a chunky radius, but still not impressive. Blazing Aura is 11.6 every 2 sec, for 5.8 dps. But once you're 50 with all that recharge and Force Feedback in Dragon's Tail, you're probably doing 62.4 every 5 sec, which is 12.48 dps. Note: This is before any +damage, which affects both attacks equally.

 

Indeed, this is why X/MA Tankers are so good at farming despite the fact that they only have a single AE attack - the Force Feedback doesn't just power up your Dragon's Tail but also effects like Burn.

[Erratic1]

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Damage Auras are great from the standpoint of convenience and low levels. However, they're not actually all that effective once you're higher level. They don't receive the increased radius/targets that conventional targets do and they don't benefit from recharge reduction.

 

Consider Dragon's Tail. This is about 62.4 damage every 14 + 1.716 secs, or 3.97 dps. It's 16 targets with a chunky radius, but still not impressive. Blazing Aura is 11.6 every 2 sec, for 5.8 dps. But once you're 50 with all that recharge and Force Feedback in Dragon's Tail, you're probably doing 62.4 every 5 sec, which is 12.48 dps. Note: This is before any +damage, which affects both attacks equally.

 

Indeed, this is why X/MA Tankers are so good at farming despite the fact that they only have a single AE attack - the Force Feedback doesn't just power up your Dragon's Tail but also effects like Burn.

 

Depends on what you think the purpose of a damage aura is. For me, it is generally a tool for keeping things interested in me without me hitting them directly. YMMV.

 

As goes the comparison of Blazing Aura and Dragon's Tail...

1. I do not think a passive, toggle ability from a defensive set should really compete with an active ability from a damage set in terms of dps.
2. 5.8 dps is 46% of 12.48, delivered far more endurance efficiently.  The character making use of Blazing Aura + Dragon's Tail will finish off their group of opponents in under 70% of the time it takes the person who just has Dragon's Tail (and that assuming they have gotten it down to firing every 5 seconds). As such they will have been exposed to fewer attacks. (Of course, nobody is going to actually fight a spawn using just those two attacks.)

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Erratic1

[Thrax]

Rad/ss. Bunch of procs. It’s a lot of damage. Also it’s not much fun and the end is horrible. 

[Neiska]

12 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Damage Auras are great from the standpoint of convenience and low levels. However, they're not actually all that effective once you're higher level. They don't receive the increased radius/targets that conventional targets do and they don't benefit from recharge reduction.

 

All true, but I tend to put the Tanker AT proc enhancements in my damage auras, that way they auto-stack without me worrying about it. Its like 16% free resist that's automatic. For a single enhancement and a single slot, I am hard pressed to find a comparable effect on a build through a single slot. 

[Psiphon]

I've only ever played DM on a scrapper and found the set at odds with itself as it had a damage boost based around large mobs but the majority of the attacks were ST. What's different about the Tank version that's makes it good at AOE?

[BrandX]

Bio Armor.  It increases the damage, at least ST DPS, that much!  Energy Melee for, if I recall, best ST DPS.  

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Psiphon said:

I've only ever played DM on a scrapper and found the set at odds with itself as it had a damage boost based around large mobs but the majority of the attacks were ST. What's different about the Tank version that's makes it good at AOE?

 

Well, Tankers get their usual AoE bonuses.  I don't know if you played the DM on Scrapper before or after the DM tweaks, but Shadow Maul was improved and Touch of Fear got an AoE damage component.

[Psiphon]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Well, Tankers get their usual AoE bonuses.  I don't know if you played the DM on Scrapper before or after the DM tweaks, but Shadow Maul was improved and Touch of Fear got an AoE damage component.

Thank you for the details, I'll give it a try. I haven't played DM on homecoming, was probably a couple of years before COH closed down.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Psiphon said:

Thank you for the details, I'll give it a try. I haven't played DM on homecoming, was probably a couple of years before COH closed down.

You'll fine the AoE in DM improved on all ATs compared to when you played it, and Tankers will get a wider cone and I believe a bigger AoE on Touch of Fear, plus greater target caps for them.

[Nyghtmaire]

6 hours ago, aethereal said:

You'll fine the AoE in DM improved on all ATs compared to when you played it, and Tankers will get a wider cone and I believe a bigger AoE on Touch of Fear, plus greater target caps for them.

DM is a thing of beauty with these powers on a tanker (and even my DM stalker can pretend to have some AOE now).