Highest single target DPS assuming capped damage and recharge?

[nihilii]

What do you think would be the highest single target DPS characters, assuming you're running around at the damage cap and the recharge cap 100% of the time?

 

(Imagine buffbots following you, basically.)

Has anyone run numbers on this? Firsthand experience?

Any AT welcome. I'm posting this on the Scrapper board because one must post such things on the Scrapper board.

--
edit: for the purpose of this question I assume accuracy, recovery, survivability and every other aspect are covered passively. As to focus on the best possible ST DPS under ideal conditions.

Edited February 21, 2023 by nihilii

[Gobbledygook]

No experience, but my guess is EnM Stalker

[nihilii]

Seems like a strong first contender!

 

With TF recharging in 4s, I'm guessing the attack chain would be TF -> ET -> AS -> then there's 1.63s to fill.

I'm thinking Power Crash, for:
- 100% chance to add third AS stack
- PBAoE procs (arma, fury)

But maybe Bonesmasher + tiny gap is better than spending an extra ~0.35s.

[InvaderStych]

Are we isolating Primaries here and ignoring contributions from the Secondary?

 

Or are we talking <which primary> + /Bio because we already know that is the answer for "Which Armor provides the biggest damage bump?"

 

Edit: Which, now that I think about it is sort of redundant. If we already know which armor is best for +dmg, then we're already looking at Primaries in isolation from armors, lol.

 

Second question:

 

Assuming flat mob resistance or taking into account the general spread of resistances?

 

------

 

I'm pretty sure you're better at the numbers than I am @nihilii, but I'd be curious to see numbers for a damage and recharge capped Psi Melee Stalker. At the recharge cap it shouldn't be too hard to pull off a chain that uses mostly GPB, TKB, and APB with either a Snipe or MS in there depending on how difficult it is to stack Focus otherwise.

 

Just based on my experience with my scrapper, GPB hits like a trainload of trucks - Critting APB and GPB one after the other would probably be insane.

 

Energy Melee is probably still the winner though.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by InvaderStych

[nihilii]

5 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

If we already know which armor is best for +dmg, then we're already looking at Primaries in isolation from armors, lol.

 

That was my thought as well.

Of course, if someone can make an awesome build leveraging Burn and Fiery Embrace... Anything goes, really.

Including Blasters and their secondaries.

I'm looking for a general spread of resistances myself (yet another reason I liked Gobbledygook's pick), but I think anyone should be free to answer the topic according to their own criterias!

[aethereal]

The value of Bio seems like it's significantly less in a world where you're damage-capped.  Then it's just the global proc and the damage aura, right?  Might as well do Stone instead of Bio, get a global proc that crits.  Fire is also a distinct possibility.

 

Scrapper seems to me to be way better than Stalker in this case, because Scrapper can broker all of that free global recharge into their ATO2, and a Stalker remains restrained by the 10.25 second internal timer on their ATO-chance-to-hide.

 

 

[nihilii]

This sounds sensible.

 

I'm not sure where to go from there. Defaulting to EM as the "easy" choice. Likely an attack chain of TF -> Moonbeam -> Bonesmasher -> ET. Feeding MB and BS with two near guaranteed crits. Should come slightly short of 3-stack AS + 1/2 crit on Bonesmasher, but then Scrapper higher damage + damage aura should even the gap?

I guess this isn't strictly within topic, but if damage ends up roughly similar between the two ATs, might as well go Scrapper.

What about the Bio proc vs the Stone proc? Is there a damage breakdown on how effective either option is?

Edit: I guess scrapper EM could also dynamically use ET twice whenever TF gives 2 stacks. ET recharging in 2s would fit right after TF then once again after MB and BS.

Edited February 20, 2023 by nihilii

[InvaderStych]

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

Then it's just the global proc and the damage aura, right?

 

Don't forget the constant -Res in Evolving Armor. So it gets a damage aura, a damage proc, and constant -Res.

 

I don't recall where, but the math has been done.  /Bio boosts damage more than /Stone,

[aethereal]

3 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Don't forget the constant -Res in Evolving Armor. So it gets a damage aura, a damage proc, and constant -Res.

 

-Res is a good point!  As with all -res, it opens up the question of "what level shift are we assuming here."

 

3 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

I don't recall where, but the math has been done.  /Bio boosts damage more than /Stone,

 

But that's under normal circumstances, where Bio gives you a +31.25% global damage bonus.  Under the assumptions of this thread, that (big!) bonus is non-operative for Bio, 'cause you're already at damage cap.

[aethereal]

Fiery Aura is interesting.  180 second base recharge on Fiery Embrace, 20 second duration.  That means an uptime under constant maxed recharge conditions of more than 50% (20 seconds on, 16 seconds off, repeat), and unlike most things that would conditionally add damage, Fiery Embrace is operative (since it doesn't add a damage bonus, but rather adds another effect to a power, which is then enhanced by your +all-the-damage).

 

I actually wonder if the answer here isn't something weird like a Sonic Blast Blaster (or maybe Corruptor?), since probably what you're looking to do is find ways to leverage the +damage in all kinds of ways.  Though the Scrapper's crit lines are obviously a good way to leverage the +damage.

 

I kiiiiiinda doubt that Energy Melee is the right set, though I don't know what is.  Is there a melee set that gets some longer-recharge powers than Energy Melee does?  A world where all your recharges are costlessly divided by five is a weird world.

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

I actually wonder if the answer here isn't something weird like a Sonic Blast Blaster (or maybe Corruptor?), since probably what you're looking to do is find ways to leverage the +damage in all kinds of ways.  Though the Scrapper's crit lines are obviously a good way to leverage the +damage.

Looking at Blaster attack base damage makes me sad. In normal game scenarios they are carried by their high +damage, their AoE output, and certain edge cases like Fire Blast DoTs. Here this is not so useful.

 

Maybe there's good combos out there. It's hard to find something matching the ridiculous DPA of fast ET + 2 high-probability crits on BS and MB.

[BrandX]

16 hours ago, aethereal said:

The value of Bio seems like it's significantly less in a world where you're damage-capped.  Then it's just the global proc and the damage aura, right?  Might as well do Stone instead of Bio, get a global proc that crits.  Fire is also a distinct possibility.

 

Scrapper seems to me to be way better than Stalker in this case, because Scrapper can broker all of that free global recharge into their ATO2, and a Stalker remains restrained by the 10.25 second internal timer on their ATO-chance-to-hide.

 

 

 

Bio would add -Regen, Damage Aura and +ToHit (and as mention -Resist) vs Stone adding Damage Aura and Damage Proc.

Edited February 20, 2023 by BrandX

[InvaderStych]

45 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Here this is not so useful.

 

Yeah, I thought for a moment that Blaster secondary T9 attacks at the recharge/damage cap might be an interesting route. I might have stalled my Rad/Sonic blaster for [reasons], but Earsplitter is good enough to have me thinking in that direction here.  Just perusing the mids numbers though, I don't think there's anything in there to make enough of a difference to stand out. 🤷‍♂️

[nihilii]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

Bio would add -Regen, Damage Aura and +ToHit (and as mention -Resist) vs Stone adding Damage Aura and Damage Proc.

 

In my hypothetical scenario, I'd also assume tohit is capped, likewise for recovery. Any context in which you cap damage and recharge will likely have the tooling to take care of accuracy and end woes. Your mileage may vary, of course!

-regen for /bio is IMHO out of scope. -100% regen from DNA Siphon will be heavily resisted by any target we want to hunt with that kind of DPS, and even procced out, not worth the animation time compared to a standard attack.

 

So arguably, it's damage aura + proc vs damage aura + proc.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

 

In my hypothetical scenario, I'd also assume tohit is capped, likewise for recovery. Any context in which you cap damage and recharge will likely have the tooling to take care of accuracy and end woes. Your mileage may vary, of course!

-regen for /bio is IMHO out of scope. -100% regen from DNA Siphon will be heavily resisted by any target we want to hunt with that kind of DPS, and even procced out, not worth the animation time compared to a standard attack.

 

So arguably, it's damage aura + proc vs damage aura + proc.

 

Well, it would still have the added -Resist versus Damage proc, tho, wouldn't the -Regen be part of the healing aspect, so every now and again?

[Rokkeb]

I don't know about other ATs but it's a claws scrappers, because EM and TW are super boring and not fun to play, with horrible rotation. 

 

And claws and is super fun and amazing to play. And characters that never get played do 0 dps. 

 

My opinion anyway. 

 

Now if only the devs would give us claws/sd , that'd be great! 

[Sir Myshkin]

You could always look back to this test performed back in 2019 although it doesn't include the since-changed sets, the information is still useful:

 

[nihilii]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Well, it would still have the added -Resist versus Damage proc, tho, wouldn't the -Regen be part of the healing aspect, so every now and again?

You're right! I don't know why I forgot to mention the -RES.

On second part, I consider survivability to be taken care of passively.

 

5 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

You could always look back to this test performed back in 2019 although it doesn't include the since-changed sets, the information is still useful:

I remember this thread but this seems the opposite of this discussion? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Edited February 21, 2023 by nihilii

[Sir Myshkin]

18 hours ago, nihilii said:

I remember this thread but this seems the opposite of this discussion? Perhaps I'm missing something.

 

The opposite? No, it's on the same trajectory for sure. The difference is that you're just cranking the damage dial up, but you're doing it across the board so the return value would theoretically curve the entire chart pretty evenly. The practical example would still give valid insight into expected outcomes at a full-cap damage scenario.

[smnolimits43]

hmm... so are we saying Blasters still do max damage.  I kind of hate toggles, although i might give energy/bio scrapper a try.  I just need a name and a good bio.  Plus would he/she be a mutant ???

[Erratic1]

If Bio is getting mentioned for its +30% to damage, why is double stacked Rage not on the table with its 160%?

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

If Bio is getting mentioned for its +30% to damage, why is double stacked Rage not on the table with its 160%?

I believe the assumption was you're already at damage cap, so a set that gives +damage isn't going to matter. You'd want to look at resistance debuffs and bonus damage (such as crits).

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I believe the assumption was you're already at damage cap, so a set that gives +damage isn't going to matter. You'd want to look at resistance debuffs and bonus damage (such as crits).

 

I had read that when I first read the thread and then when I came back because of the most recent post I had fogotten that stipulation.

 

Thanks!

[nihilii]

12 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

The opposite? No, it's on the same trajectory for sure. The difference is that you're just cranking the damage dial up, but you're doing it across the board so the return value would theoretically curve the entire chart pretty evenly. The practical example would still give valid insight into expected outcomes at a full-cap damage scenario.

I tried to read this several times, but your words fly way over my head, haha.

The linked topic is about testing standard mission environments with SOs or IOs. I'm interested in sustained single-target DPS under optimal conditions.

How should I link the two?

Several assumptions of standard fully IOed builds in, say, Pylon testing, already shift in capped damage/recharge/recovery/survivability scenarios:

- personal +dam isn't as important

- pure DPA is more important

- special damage is more important (crits, global procs)

- attack chains will trim a lot of fat (a powerset with high DPA variance might top a powerset with smoothed out DPA?)

It seems to me SO builds doing missions are way further from the goal here than standard fully IOed builds whacking on Pylons?

Edited February 22, 2023 by nihilii

[Astralock]

Fiery Melee/Bio Armor Stalker is pretty up there.