Focused Feedback: Redraw Revamp

[The Curator]

Redraw Revamp

Summary

• Weapon powers now play a draw animation the first time you use a weapon after your character is has been in an idle / non-combat animation. With typical mission pacing, this should mean each weapon will only play its draw animation the first time you use it in combat on a mission map, unless you idle somewhere on the map for long enough for your character to return to the idle state.

 

Power Sets Impacted:

• Beam Rifle
• Dual Pistols
• Dual Blades
• Battle Axe
• War Mace
• Broadsword
• Staff Fighting
• Arachnos Soldiers
• Arachnos Widows
• Archery / Trick Arrow / Tactical Arrow
• Claws
• Spines
• Thorny Assault
• Plant Manipulation
• Experimentation > Experimental Injection
• Assault Rifle
• Mastermind Pets

[dinosaur_nerd]

Will there still be an option for "NO REDRAW"?
I don't want clunky animations ever, or to be forced to steamroll to avoid it.

[Frosticus]

Triple redraw bane no more?

[Ruin Mage]

1 minute ago, Frosticus said:

Triple redraw bane no more?

Correct, unless something bricked (I use this loosely) between Closed Beta and Open Beta.

[KaizenSoze]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Triple redraw bane no more?

Of all the VEATs, Banes/Huntbanes benefits the most.

Edited April 6, 2023 by KaizenSoze

[Gobbledigook]

Speed some of the Staff Fighting animations up a little and it could be worth playing now 🙂

[Paradox Fate]

Also affects Epic Power Pools, like in Mace Mastery - You still do the redraw on the first attack, but any other use while in combat makes it switch instantly.

[Dispari]

13 hours ago, dinosaur_nerd said:

Will there still be an option for "NO REDRAW"?
I don't want clunky animations ever, or to be forced to steamroll to avoid it.

I still generally agree with this. Even if I only end up drawing my weapon once per mission it's still something that weapon sets deal with that other sets don't. Water blast is never expected to waste time in combat doing something that's not attacking enemies. But weapon sets, basically all of which are already weaker than non-weapon sets, are held back by this expectation. There's just no logical reason for this additional burden, and it's certainly not for balance reasons.

It also doesn't make much sense to me since we even got a version of katana/TW that did exactly this in the interim before this new system. Katana would skip the draw animation entirely if you start with it in combat but draw it if nothing is around. It seemed like the perfect compromise of "no redraw" while still letting you get the animation if you wanted it. (And, for feedback purposes, you can play with katana on live to see what I'm talking about. Those sets were basically nerfed to bring them in line with other weapon sets right now on beta).

That said, having done a bunch of testing with screen-recorder programs to track the animation times frame by frame and going back and forth on the specifics with devs, I did confirm there are some odd quirks with the redraw system that truncate the second attack in a chain, essentially eliminating any extra animation time of drawing your weapon, so you're not wasting any time in the long run in the vast majority of circumstances. There are still some edge cases of course; if I'm playing a dark/ninja blaster and only do a single katana attack (not a chain) then yes I wasted time drawing my weapon and am essentially punished for playing a weapon set. So this quirky new system is mostly not a big deal but is not perfect.

It will however be a dramatic buff to my Fortunata who has no less than 10 powers that make her put her claws away. And the new redraw system should be an improvement in performance overall for nearly all my characters in nearly all circumstances. It just still feels completely unnecessary to have this extra little thing hanging over the system for no apparent reason.

[dinosaur_nerd]

6 hours ago, Dispari said:

...
Even if I only end up drawing my weapon once per mission it's still something that weapon sets deal with that other sets don't.

...

weapon sets, basically all of which are already weaker than non-weapon sets, are held back by this expectation.

 

Weapon sets are generally weaker, AND having to draw weapons before being able to attack is a cripping effect, even if it only happens once.

That being said... this isn't my primary beef with it... the weapon redraw FEELS BAD. I am approaching this from a QoL and "Fun factor" perspective...

Even if redraw wasn't an unwarranted nerf to sets that are already weak, when I want to emphasize the theme of a wild west quickdraw hero, wasting time spinning the guns around before even taking the first shot is just a ridiculous shattering of theme... and overall makes the character feel like something from an over the top anime spectacle instead.

 

Please do not forget to give us the option to just have no redraw at all, if it fits our theme, thanks.

[Dispari]

Agreed with all that. This new system is... acceptable, but I'd rather it just worked like katana works on live and I don't see a good reason why it shouldn't.

[AxerJ]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:07 PM, dinosaur_nerd said:

Will there still be an option for "NO REDRAW"?
I don't want clunky animations ever, or to be forced to steamroll to avoid it.

This is especially important for the laser swords - 'no redraw' makes the most sense, as we can imagine the beams extending out of the hilts.

[AustinSmith]

3 hours ago, Dispari said:

Agreed with all that. This new system is... acceptable, but I'd rather it just worked like katana works on live and I don't see a good reason why it shouldn't.

The design intention of this change I believe IS to make all the weapons sets like Katana. Katana worked this way on live; drawing the weapon while out of combat/out of range but instantaneous in-combat + in range

[Lazarillo]

4 minutes ago, AustinSmith said:

The design intention of this change I believe IS to make all the weapons sets like Katana. Katana worked this way on live; drawing the weapon while out of combat/out of range but instantaneous in-combat + in range

Two points of note:

1. The katana change to its current HC-live state was made by HC.  It was also carried over to the "no redraw" option on pretty much all other weapons already.

2. By the description in the patch note, at least (perhaps some of us are misreading it?  Devs, please feel free to clarify because I think it'd settle a lot of the current discussion!), it actually reverts that, and makes it so that if you're not already attacking, it'll play the weapon draw animation again (basically removing the no redraw option and locking you into drawing on your initial attack).

Edited April 6, 2023 by Lazarillo

[Dispari]

9 minutes ago, AustinSmith said:

The design intention of this change I believe IS to make all the weapons sets like Katana. Katana worked this way on live; drawing the weapon while out of combat/out of range but instantaneous in-combat + in range

Nope, the new system forces at least one draw at the start of combat regardless of circumstances. Katana was even changed away from the version you're describing to this new one. This also removes the "no redraw" option from all sets.

[AustinSmith]

8 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Nope, the new system forces at least one draw at the start of combat regardless of circumstances. Katana was even changed away from the version you're describing to this new one. This also removes the "no redraw" option from all sets.

 

Okay, yeah, hopped on Brainstorm and it looks like no redraw was changed since the last time I played with it; if I'm not in combat stance, I'll have to bring out the sword the very first time even if the power is already in melee range. This is a downgrade for sets that had straight up No Redraw before, but still an upgrade for VEATs/Spines characters over the course of the total fight that didn't have the option before.

To be honest, I don't see this affecting steamroller teams, or even moderately paced teams much, since you'll basically be in combat the whole time and 1 draw at the very start is negligible, even if it is a slight downgrade. It takes a while for my character to go from in combat stance to out of combat stance (about 30s of standing around idle) before I have to do another redraw.

IDK. I totally get the complaints around this implementation, but I'm still overall for it, bc the sets that were suffering with forced redraw were SUFFERING.

[Romeyn]

just played a bit with an AR/Dark corr on the test server, love it

[Dispari]

3 hours ago, AustinSmith said:

IDK. I totally get the complaints around this implementation, but I'm still overall for it, bc the sets that were suffering with forced redraw were SUFFERING.

Yeah my main is a Fortunata who redraws constantly because of the mix of claw and psychic powers, and it will be a huge boon for her, so I'm happy about this new system overall. It just feels like the extra hangon of one forced draw is completely unnecessary when we had a good alternative already.

[Frosticus]

Took my melee fort for a spin.

Previous single target attacks were:

Swipe, Strike, Follow up, Lunge

 

Did a respec so my single target attacks are now:

tk blast, lunge, follow up, dominate and shatter armor

 

Mixing such attacks before was untenable. It seems to work quite smoothly now, so not only a huge improvement in feel of the character, but also a major buff in overall power of my single target dps and control. 

 

I think this really breathes new life into the VEATs.

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

If it means all weapons sets get a mostly No redraw then this is a good step forward. 

 

A weapon draw before combat is fitting i think. "Time for business". You can easily click a weapon power to draw you weapon in advance also.

 

[Dispari]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Mixing such attacks before was untenable. It seems to work quite smoothly now, so not only a huge improvement in feel of the character, but also a major buff in overall power of my single target dps and control. 

The benefit my Fort will get out of this is pretty big. Powers like Aim, Mind Link, Psychic Scream, Psionic Tornado, and Psychic Wail all put your claws away. So attacking while doing any good AoEs would cause redraw. Buffing allies would cause redraw. And because enemies have a tendency to flee when hit with -recharge, I would usually cycle Dominate into chains against bosses to make them sit still. Which would also cause redraw. Since my Fortunata is my main I'll be getting a lot out of this change.

[ScarySai]

If people never want to bother with redrawing their weapon under any circumstances, that should be something they can do. 

[Tarrquinn]

I tried this out on my mace-only Bane Spider and the redraw overhaul makes a world of difference! Going from mace attack -> Surveillance/Ion -> mace attack feels smooth and flowing, without any awkward pauses to redraw weapons. This change will probably get me to factor Venom and/or Frag Grenade back into my build. The redraw was a serious hamper before, but not now. Thanks devs!

[Troo]

Stalkers

• Placate doesn't need to do redraw.
• Buildup doesn't need to do redraw.
• The following shouldn't redraw either. (seems to be working sort of as intended)
  • from hidden, Assassins ____ > Placate / Stalker ATO Hide > Assassins ____

 

Stone with the mallet animations is buttery smooth. Claws and Broad Sword are not.

(did not test the others but can guess that the other weapon sets are similar to Claws and Broad Sword while Ice and Fire are similar to Stone.)

 

Note: The Assassins Strike/Claw/Etc animations in the character creator show the attack animation followed by the redraw animation which is backwards. (not sure when this went wonky)

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Troo

[SwitchFade]

1. I have toons where the redraw is thematic, and I want to redraw as normal, no change

2. I have toons where "no redraw ever" is how I want them

 

Beta change - If this change removes the "no redraw option" and forces "1 redraw per mission" I would basically never play any toon that uses a weapon.

 

And being that most of my toons do, and that DB is my main across 7 toons... I would stop playing.

 

I play for theme and fun, this seems trivial, but if the theme is broken, the toon is broken.

 

HC team, please understand that if this change does actually do the above in "beta change" I would unfortunately no longer play.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Just dropping by for a quick update:

The No Redraw themes were a big hack that constantly broke sequencers and introduced many animation bugs, it was also not a viable solution for many weapon-based sets.

 

This new system is an engine change that comes with its own technical limitations. It was attempted to make the new system entirely skip redraw if within a fight, its something I personally really advocated for, but at the end of the day turned out to not be possible.

 

[Insert spaghetti code/house of cards/Jenga tower references here]