Focused Feedback: Blast Power Set Updates

[BazookaTwo]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Probably less, but you won't have to spend time setting it up with Immobs or whatever.

 

Setting up? It's an opener for me

[Kaballah]

IMO all of the Assault Rifle changes as of the morning of 4/9 are very good, replacing Bean Bag with Aim and the rework of Ignite make two very skippable powers into two super appealing ones that are hard to justify skipping. The other changes are fine.

 

Everything about the Psychic Blast rework (at least on Blaster) is wonderful, the set feels very strong now and comparable to the other popular Blaster sets, and it combos very well with Mental Manipulation. The only thing I'd ask for related to this is a Psionic focused epic set just to complete the theme but the current changes are wonderful.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, BazookaTwo said:

 

Setting up? It's an opener for me

If you’re not using an immobilize then how are you doing 1000+ damage?

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Scrappers do not struggle with damage in any way. They have AoE. The AoE of a Scrapper may be less targets but it is also shorter cooldowns and rotated much more frequently than the Blaster t9 FA nuke we are discussing. I am sure a SD/ElecM Scrapper can put out some pretty good AoE damage but that is irrelevant.

 

This is concerning Full Auto only though and probably RoA when it's time is due.

In fact Electric Melee is totally relevant, that set is very comparable to a Sentinel with its nuke and low single target damage.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

In fact Electric Melee is totally relevant, that set is very comparable to a Sentinel with its nuke and low single target damage.

In what way?

 

[Wavicle]

50 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

In what way?

 

Sentinels are basically Electric Melee scrappers with Range and Vulnerability instead of Crits. The numbers are very, very similar.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Sentinels are basically Electric Melee scrappers with Range and Vulnerability instead of Crits. The numbers are very, very similar.

Why are we discussing what sentinels do? It was about Full auto.

 

There are big differences but i am not getting into that here. Full auto is in beta Scrappers are not.

[xmenlegend]

Since we're looking at Telekinetic Blast... could we possibly get a repel effect on it instead of KB, similar to Jet Stream? That way it'd feel more telekinetic?

[Xcalibur]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:57 PM, The Curator said:

Dual Pistols

Suppressive Fire

• Cast time reduced from 1.67s to 1.5s.
• Recharge reduced from 20s to 8s.
• Damage increased from scale 0.1 to scale 1.64.
• Hold effectiveness reduced.

Please, please...do NOT do this!  A proc'd out Suppressive Fire on my DP/Time defender is my most damaging single target power.  This will make it just a little better than Dual Wield, which is basically worthless and not worth the power slot.  I was so excited that proc'ing it out could exceed Executioner's Shot damage, and is the cornerstone of my enjoyment on this toon.  Please reconsider this decision!

[csr]

57 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

NO dear God no.

 

Which is specifically THE reason I'll never play a fire blast sentinel lol

 

I wish some of the various Repel powers would get the Repulsion Field mechanic where a -KB IO also cancels the Repel.  I haven't tested it but the CoD2 entry for Jet Stream on Beta appears to include that tag.  Blazing Blast and the suggested version of Telekinetic Blast - and perhaps Ki Push - would be good candidates to get that treatment as well.

 

As for Psy Blast, I had two short play sessions with a level 25 Psy / Tac Arrow Blaster.  The set seemed perhaps a touch overpowered to me.  Yes, Dominate Will's projectile is slow as molasses, TK Blast still has the "KB Tax" on slotting, and you have to take one of Dominate Will or Mental Blast - both of which are mediocre.  But I was easily able to wipe out Minions with just Psionic Tornado, Scramble Minds and Psionic Darts.  The DPA on the latter two is even high enough to use in a single target attack chain to get some collateral damage without gimping your single-target DPS too much.  I felt the set played about as well as Water Blast, which I consider a top end Blast set.  I would have said it played even better, but looking forward past L25, Water Blast adding the ranged nuke versus the PBAoE nuke in Psy Blast will probably balance that out.

Edited April 9, 2023 by csr
typos, grammar, clarification

[Wavicle]

In my actual testing (as opposed to my theorycrafting) of AR on Sentinels, I find the single target damage is still way too low compared to other Sentinels. AoE is fine. I struggle to take out many bosses, especially at the high levels. I would really like to see Sentinel Slug get the same lowered cast time as other ATs. I think that would help. 

[eustace]

9 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Why are we discussing what sentinels do? It was about Full auto.

 

There are big differences but i am not getting into that here. Full auto is in beta Scrappers are not.

 

One of your first posts was comparing Blaster to Sentinel damage.  Ok, focused on FA, but still seeming to (unless I'm misinterpreting something) suggest that the difference in damage was a disparity that needed to be addressed.  

The counter is that Sentinels dont need to do 1:1 damage with Blasters (or other AT's), because other advantages balance out their not having damage on par with the other AT's. 

[C U R S E]

On 4/6/2023 at 12:11 AM, stryve said:

I only have Psychic Blast on a Sentinel, but here's my two cents after taking it for a spin on Brainstorm.

 

The cast time reduction on Psychic Scream and Psionic Tornado is pretty great, and does help with AOE, which is something the set struggled with outside Psychic Wail.  The new Scramble Minds helps a bit there as well, in a tightly packed group. 
 

However, at level 50 Scramble Minds has an unenhanced average damage of 61.7.  This is a rather significant reduction from the existing Scramble Thoughts, which has an unenhanced average damage of 217.77.  That's less than Telekinetic Blast, and a really noticeable difference in my single target chain.  Any reason it was hit quite that hard?

I believe the answer is that they changed it to an AOE for all sets. Hitting at that amount for a AOE would be insanely good 😆 

[BazookaTwo]

16 hours ago, Wavicle said:

If you’re not using an immobilize then how are you doing 1000+ damage?

 

With a healthy dose of Repel, of course

[BrandX]

10 hours ago, Xcalibur said:

Please, please...do NOT do this!  A proc'd out Suppressive Fire on my DP/Time defender is my most damaging single target power.  This will make it just a little better than Dual Wield, which is basically worthless and not worth the power slot.  I was so excited that proc'ing it out could exceed Executioner's Shot damage, and is the cornerstone of my enjoyment on this toon.  Please reconsider this decision!

 

Wasn't it shown it's improved with this change?

[Kaika]

2 hours ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Personally, I agree with you. I enjoy proccing out powers. But it appears the devs balance powers mostly around how they perform leveling 1-50 on SOs. Tricked-out level 50+3 IO/Incarnate builds aren't usually a consideration when looking at balancing powers. Procs certainly aren't.

This is why powers like Will Dom and Suppressive Fire (and to a lesser extent, Abyssal Gaze) are being "nerfed" for those who play IO'd characters at level 50, but buffed for those who level 1-50 on SOs. (The buff is that they are mezzes that will be available more frequently, which will increase the blaster's survivability vs +0/1 enemies whilst leveling up.)

As someone who plays exclusively at 50 because this game is old as dirt, IOs are extremely easy to come by, and leveling 1-50 is a cakewalk no matter what sets you take...I don't like this approach to balancing powers. But, if the majority of folks playing this game are leveling 1-50 on SOs, I can't exactly argue with it.

It would be nice if a compromise could be found, though. Especially as this change guts Psy Blast in PvP. (Something I've already mentioned plenty on the testing discord, so won't go into it here.)

I have to agree, nerfing 50s that are IOed out for the sake of 1-50 on SO, is not the way to go. I agree that sets should be fully functional on SO but to do this at the cost of angering everyone who uses the set with IOs is foolish to be frank. They are effectively nerfing the most dedicated players for the sake of players that may not even stick with the toon, and lower the end potential of that set. To me it seems like a great way to please no one, you tick off the dedicated players, and the players the changes are made for are likely indifferent to the changes. Anyone playing strictly on SOs likely does not care much about a sets performance as they are already not optimizing, and those leveling will be disappointed to find the set has lower potential then it use to when trying to build it out.

[SableShrike]

I’m kinda in the other boat to you and Wav, AA.

 

I find the current state of Incarnate play at 50 to be completely over the top and quickly burn out on it.  Guess I’m one of those “back in my day” old farts.

 

Anywho!  As you mentioned, the Blaster changes make leveling a new Blast toon much nicer.  If we take Incarnates and procs out of the equation, this is a straight upgrade to the powers changed.

 

And honestly, the fact Suppressive was outdamaging Exectioner’s is proof of the craziness the game has evolved to: where mez powers outdamage dedicated DPS powers.

 

Not saying that’s a good or bad thing, but it makes sense they won’t be balancing around edge-case use.  Cuz most folks don’t get toons to 50 and fully purple them, it’s better to assume most play is with SOs.

[Skygoddess]

Incinerator on defender AR does not take any IO set enhancements at the moment. 

[Gobbledigook]

21 hours ago, eustace said:

 

One of your first posts was comparing Blaster to Sentinel damage.  Ok, focused on FA, but still seeming to (unless I'm misinterpreting something) suggest that the difference in damage was a disparity that needed to be addressed.  

The counter is that Sentinels dont need to do 1:1 damage with Blasters (or other AT's), because other advantages balance out their not having damage on par with the other AT's. 

No it wasn't and yes it was FA ONLY.

I never said that either and that is a counter to Nothing.

I merely stated the figures for the developers to make of them as they will. 

FA is not balanced with other Sentinel T9s and the Blaster/Defender/corruptor versions are much better, especially now if they are getting the arc increase and have better range,, cooldown and even damage.

I was just pointing this out and and not going to get into a big debate over it. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[brasilgringo]

Outside of damage procs, one of the nice things about Supressive Fire is that a Decimation Build-Up proc in it goes off (on Live) a lot of the time, allowing DP to make up slightly for the lack of Build-Up.  My sense is the changes will gut this along with the damage-proc chances, which is a shame - the set really needs some more oomph to offset its relatively low damage.

[ScarySai]

Suppressive still procs decently well, and the times it doesn't, the extra damage and lower recharge makes it a break even. Rotationally speaking, I'd even call it an improvement.

 

Decimation will probably lose favor, which sucks for a set without build up, but if you just want a damage proc mule, it still works.

 

I feel like if you're going to turn blast set mezzes into damage focused powers that I'd rather have the power reworked than have some damage slapped on the top. The cc is generally bad for all of them, beanbag being the worst of them all, as it used to take the slot aim now inhabits.

 

It's important to mention the procs though, for any devs reading - because this is the only reason you'll see people taking these powers, as a general rule.

Edited April 10, 2023 by ScarySai

[Mezmera]

9 hours ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Personally, I agree with you. I enjoy proccing out powers. But it appears the devs balance powers mostly around how they perform leveling 1-50 on SOs. Tricked-out level 50+3 IO/Incarnate builds aren't usually a consideration when looking at balancing powers. Procs certainly aren't.

This is why powers like Will Dom and Suppressive Fire (and to a lesser extent, Abyssal Gaze) are being "nerfed" for those who play IO'd characters at level 50, but buffed for those who level 1-50 on SOs. (The buff is that they are mezzes that will be available more frequently, which will increase the blaster's survivability vs +0/1 enemies whilst leveling up.)

As someone who plays exclusively at 50 because this game is old as dirt, IOs are extremely easy to come by, and leveling 1-50 is a cakewalk no matter what sets you take...I don't like this approach to balancing powers. But, if the majority of folks playing this game are leveling 1-50 on SOs, I can't exactly argue with it.

It would be nice if a compromise could be found, though. Especially as this change guts Psy Blast in PvP. (Something I've already mentioned plenty on the testing discord, so won't go into it here.)

 

That's all nice and understandable if it weren't for the fact that a great majority of procs are slottable by lvl 20-30.  Instead of adjusting procs to force people into creative slotting like the more procs in a power the less likely the later ones will fire we are just going to adjust the more ideal powers to slot procs until every power set is forced to slot sets instead due to having fast recharge ala Fire blast without the raw damage output of Fire blast.  

 

One of the most enjoyable things about this game is the IO system in its entirety including procs.  If someone chooses to slot all procs into a power they are sacrificing a lot of set bonuses.  

[Galaxy Brain]

Howdy all, I was curious about the changes to procs and Supressive Fire myself and decided to do some math to figure out if this was actually a nerf. On the one hand, the activation and recharge going down really hurts the proc rates... but when it comes to damage, it is doing over 16x more than before which @ScarySai mentioned could make everything wash out. Lets find out!

 

 

1) Proc Rates

 

Going off ye olde PPM formula for a single target click - [ PPM * ((activation + rech) / (60)) ], a standard 3.5 PPM proc should wash out to the following:

 

Old: 1.67 | 20 = 90% 

New: 1.5 | 8 = 55.4%

 

Not the best... but lets look at it in context. Ghost Widow is a good standard of a 3.5 ppm proc that Supressive can take, dealing 71.75 damage at lvl 50 when it goes off. Assuming that over time it fires equal to the proc rate, the average damage should look like:

 

Old: 90% = 64.58 dam avg

New: 55.4% = 39.76 dam avg 

 

Again, not looking good for the new version in terms of damage... until we add the actual damage the power does:

 

Old: 6.26 dam + 64.58 = 70.84 dam avg

New: 102.6 dam + 39.76 = 142.36 dam avg

 

So with no added dam enhancement and 1 proc, the average damage is a little over double than what it would have been on the old version! Being able to hit for over double the damage on avg with less than half the recharge time sounds like a good deal on paper.

 

 

2) Proc Bombing & Damage

 

Lets kick it up a notch and say this is a Blaster with some money, slapping in the following procs with their average damage per ppm listed:

 

Apocalypse  (96.38 old, 76.3 new)

Superior Blasters Wrath (96.38 old, 84.78 new)

Unbreakable Restraint (96.38 old, 76.3 new)

Ghost Widows Embrace (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

Gladiators Net (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

Neuronic Shutdown (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

 

These 6 would IIRC be the best damage procs to load out if going for pure proc damage, lets see how they compare:

 

Old: 6.26 + 482.87 = 489.13

New: 102.6 + 356.67 = 459.27

 

The new version with 6 procs deals about 6.5% less damage on average, which is without any damage bonuses whatsoever. Lets assume there is a Tanker on the team running assault for 15% more damage:

 

Old: 7.19 + 482.87 = 490.07

New: 117.99 + 356.67 = 474.66, ~3.2% less

 

At that point its basically negligable, like if on the blaster you also fired a few powers beforehand and have another 25% dam from Defiance along with the Tanker:

 

Old: 491.63

New: 500.31, ~1.8% more!

 

Now, lets look if the power only had 5 procs as well as the 15 - 40% damage boost from the outside, assuming there is an Acc/End in the 6th slot (dropping one of the 3.5 ppms):

 

Old: 424.55 | 425.49 | 427.05

New: 419.51 | 434.9 | 460.55

 

So even when procced to the max, outside DAM buffs + how fast it recharges seems to not only make it a wash, but potentially a BUFF to damage on average. 

 

Not to mention if all the procs go off when you fire the new one it just deal far more damage anyways...

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Galaxy Brain

[Mezmera]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Howdy all, I was curious about the changes to procs and Supressive Fire myself and decided to do some math to figure out if this was actually a nerf. On the one hand, the activation and recharge going down really hurts the proc rates... but when it comes to damage, it is doing over 16x more than before which @ScarySai mentioned could make everything wash out. Lets find out!

 

 

1) Proc Rates

 

Going off ye olde PPM formula for a single target click - [ PPM * ((activation + rech) / (60)) ], a standard 3.5 PPM proc should wash out to the following:

 

Old: 1.67 | 20 = 90% 

New: 1.5 | 8 = 55.4%

 

Not the best... but lets look at it in context. Ghost Widow is a good standard of a 3.5 ppm proc that Supressive can take, dealing 71.75 damage at lvl 50 when it goes off. Assuming that over time it fires equal to the proc rate, the average damage should look like:

 

Old: 90% = 64.58 dam avg

New: 55.4% = 39.76 dam avg 

 

Again, not looking good for the new version in terms of damage... until we add the actual damage the power does:

 

Old: 6.26 dam + 64.58 = 70.84 dam avg

New: 102.6 dam + 39.76 = 142.36 dam avg

 

So with no added dam enhancement and 1 proc, the average damage is a little over double than what it would have been on the old version! Being able to hit for over double the damage on avg with less than half the recharge time sounds like a good deal on paper.

 

 

2) Proc Bombing & Damage

 

Lets kick it up a notch and say this is a Blaster with some money, slapping in the following procs with their average damage per ppm listed:

 

Apocalypse  (96.38 old, 76.3 new)

Superior Blasters Wrath (96.38 old, 84.78 new)

Unbreakable Restraint (96.38 old, 76.3 new)

Ghost Widows Embrace (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

Gladiators Net (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

Neuronic Shutdown (64.58 old, 39.76 new)

 

These 6 would IIRC be the best damage procs to load out if going for pure proc damage, lets see how they compare:

 

Old: 6.26 + 482.87 = 489.13

New: 102.6 + 356.67 = 459.27

 

The new version with 6 procs deals about 6.5% less damage on average, which is without any damage bonuses whatsoever. Lets assume there is a Tanker on the team running assault for 15% more damage:

 

Old: 7.19 + 482.87 = 490.07

New: 117.99 + 356.67 = 474.66, ~3.2% less

 

At that point its basically negligable, like if on the blaster you also fired a few powers beforehand and have another 25% dam from Defiance along with the Tanker:

 

Old: 491.63

New: 500.31, ~1.8% more!

 

Now, lets look if the power only had 5 procs as well as the 15 - 40% damage boost from the outside, assuming there is an Acc/End in the 6th slot (dropping one of the 3.5 ppms):

 

Old: 424.55 | 425.49 | 427.05

New: 419.51 | 434.9 | 460.55

 

So even when procced to the max, outside DAM buffs + how fast it recharges seems to not only make it a wash, but potentially a BUFF to damage on average. 

 

Not to mention if all the procs go off when you fire the new one it just deal far more damage anyways...

 

 

 

 

Did you actually test this or is this theory crafting?

 

Slot these procs as you list them on the current HC version and go spam Suppressive Fire on a +4 boss.  Then slot Suppressive Fire on test however seems optimal trying to add onto that new internal damage which now two slots at minimum you'll at least be slotting to boost for more moderate damage, taking the place of two procs, and go spam the attack on a +4 boss to see how much faster you clear them.  

 

16x increase to damage output seems like wonky math to me, in fact any reliable increase to damage seems wholly unlikely from how it tested out for me.  

[Booper]

All, we are veering off topic with all the proc discussion. We get it, Suppressive Fire doesn't proc bomb as well anymore. If you wish to continue that conversation, move it to https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/57-homecoming-beta/. I don't want this back-and-forth drowning out other's feedback of the rest of the blaster changes.