City billboard questions

[Techwright]

Two billboards, two questions:

 

1.) Left billboard - what was the background story to this one?  It feels like it's suggesting shapeshifters, but the only one I'm aware of was Protean.

 

2.) Why do we have this billboard?  It's wrong on so many levels.  I gather it's a reference to the Rikti War, but we've got a lot of aliens on the side of the planet, not the least of which are hero warshades and peacebringers.  While I understand the "protect our homeworld" pitch, this one is just a vicious, unfocused attack, made worse by abusing a specific nation's patriotism and dragging it into a global pitch.  Can we get a redo?   (NOTE: none of this discussion reflects real-world politics. Please keep it that way.  Well, I do think real Earth should be for humans, and dolphins, can't forget them, but still...)

 

[biostem]

Well, if I remember the history of the game correctly, it's supposed to be only a few years after the Rikti War, so maybe it's just there to reflect the continued paranoia.  Also, even though there are clearly friendly aliens, as you pointed out, Vanguard troop chatter definitely belies a blatant disregard for all things Rikti, so it kind of makes sense in-universe.  The problem is that even with the 20-odd updates the game went through before sunsetting, not much was done in all the "regular" zones to reflect changes the game as  whole underwent, (Kheldians, etc).

[LegionAlpha]

23 minutes ago, Techwright said:

dolphins,

 

 

According to Generation Tech, Dolphins are not to be trusted either. As they will one day kill all humans and claim the surface world. I agree Earth for humans angle is a bit old as the planet also has it's share of other races such as elves and faeries, mutants and non-superdine Orks/trolls. 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by LegionAlpha

[Sir Myshkin]

24 minutes ago, Techwright said:

NOTE: none of this discussion reflects real-world politics. Please keep it that way.

 

While I appreciate the attempt at candor and wanting a clean debate on this, unfortunately these types of banners and billboards in the game did reflect the type of real-world responses the occur(ed) in America and are a ... I don't want to say parody because it makes it seem joke-ish, but they are a dark contrast to that existence. A lot of ... things have happened in the world in more recent years that may give pause or reflect differently now on the use of something like this when done with intent, but it doesn't change that even now this style of propaganda is around.

 

Remember a lot of this game was in development almost 20 years ago, and while the development team did make modifications and updates to various different aspects of the game (including billboards at one point), at its latest we're still looking at an eleven year variance in how we as people now would see those billboards compared to back when the game was live.

 

Taking this into consideration, this is probably not a topic necessarily directly discuss in the open because the purpose was there, I would encourage you to open dialogue with the devs, and maybe open a suggestion thread instead just talking about a more updated ecosystem for the billboard content in the game.

[SarahTheM1]

First one could very well be hinting at Rikti infiltrators, though at least off the top of my head those wouldn't become an explicit thing until City of Villains. They may have been in the story bible already tho.

 

In both cases those billboards date back to launch where there was meant to be a more explicit sense that the Rikti War had more or less just happened. Even ignoring the multitudes of alien heroes joining the good fight before then, Kheldians in I3 definitely made them obsolete and many a joke was made of lingering around the second billboard in squid form.

 

The original writing also had a streak of commentary hiding in the margins, so it's at least possible the screamingly jingoistic second billboard was intended to make you go WTF rather than being taken strictly at face value. (To be honest, until now I never realized just how...much...it is. "Earth" for humans...American flag and Statue of Liberty, uhuh. Sure.)

 

In my headcanon I had assumed they were the work of an overzealous Vanguard (who down the line were painted as kind of shady...not that it really stuck), but now I wonder if the intent was to be more of a "concerned citizen" conspiracy theory thing...

 

Edit: Oh, lookee lookee. Went back-tracing this through the story bible and sure enough, Rikti infiltrators were intended from the start. The header for that section of story is even "They Are Among Us" hearkening to why I connected those billboards with the Vanguard but forgot about: The third billboard of the bunch that states "They Are Still Among Us, Report any strange activity to the Vanguard". Slightly different style of billboard but the exact same font and layout, so yeah, I'm right back to my original thought that it's Vanguard being real aggressive. Or I suppose "just" post-war vigilance being taken to extremes.

 

None of this is to say those billboards aren't still amazingly out of date and out of sync with the game as it is now. Though if I had my druthers I'd love to go through and thoroughly fix like 90% of billboards and signs across the entire game because at some point a bunch of them got all mixed up and there's all sorts of other weirdness.

Edited April 26, 2023 by SarahTheM1

[Scarlet Shocker]

I also find those posters jarring for many of the reasons already stated  - but I kind of think they give a bit of atmosphere that I'll try and elaborate. I should state off the bat that I'm no expert on game lore but my understanding was that the game launched with the Rikti invasion with a mothership over Atlas and all kinds of exciting stuff. The Rikti were repulsed and their ship was downed in Rikti Crash site -- which is a very convenient coincidence if you think about it. So I guess the idea is that the citizens of Paragon feel seriously threatened by the invaders from another dimension and that is reflected in the posters. I think that is enhanced by other shape changers and strange critters that can only be seen occasionally such as void seekers and quantums (remember them, back when people playing Kheldians blasted everything in sight and then screamed like little boys when they saw a void seeker?)

 

I do think the flag jars on the banner - but that's perhaps because I'm not American and although Paragon is set in the continental USA it seems much more international than many American cities, and paradoxically more welcoming to all and sundry, including the huddled masses. So there's a definite philosophical conflict in my own mind but I go back to the point that when we have contant invasions from Rikti, Nemesis, Zombies and even snowmen, it's understandable that local government might be over-zealous in ensuring the citizenry remain vigilant for any potential nefarious doings.

[Vindicator]

The billboards are written in context to anti-alien sentiment caused by the Rikti invasion, and are therefore fine as they are.  As stated, the billboards tie into the story and are not "amazingly out of date and out of sync with the game as it is now".  Also as stated, Paragon City is in a fictional United States so there should be nothing "jarring" about seeing an American flag on a billboard.  Now, stop being overly sensitive and looking for things to be offended about.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Vindicator

[cranebump]

This is a fictional world. There are fictional douche bags in it (some of which we beat up, while being fictional superheroes).

[Yomo Kimyata]

12 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

While I appreciate the attempt at candor and wanting a clean debate on this, unfortunately these types of banners and billboards in the game did reflect the type of real-world responses the occur(ed) in America and are a ... I don't want to say parody because it makes it seem joke-ish, but they are a dark contrast to that existence. A lot of ... things have happened in the world in more recent years that may give pause or reflect differently now on the use of something like this when done with intent, but it doesn't change that even now this style of propaganda is around.

 

Remember a lot of this game was in development almost 20 years ago, and while the development team did make modifications and updates to various different aspects of the game (including billboards at one point), at its latest we're still looking at an eleven year variance in how we as people now would see those billboards compared to back when the game was live.

 

Taking this into consideration, this is probably not a topic necessarily directly discuss in the open because the purpose was there, I would encourage you to open dialogue with the devs, and maybe open a suggestion thread instead just talking about a more updated ecosystem for the billboard content in the game.

 

Agree.  I think they were designed as a parody, but I have zero doubt that if things in real life were more like Paragon that these billboards would be all over the place.  I accept it as historical parody and I'm moving on.

[LegionAlpha]

20 minutes ago, cranebump said:

This is a fictional world. There are fictional douche bags in it (some of which we beat up, while being fictional superheroes).

 

I do not remember as a hero beating up Statesman. I watched him die as a hero, but not fight him. 

[cranebump]

6 minutes ago, LegionAlpha said:

 

I do not remember as a hero beating up Statesman. I watched him die as a hero, but not fight him. 

Well, I did say we fight some douche bags in the guise of superheroes. I guess the villains get the rest.:-)

 

(Tbh, I miss States in the active game).

Edited April 26, 2023 by cranebump

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, Vindicator said:

 Now, stop being overly sensitive and looking for things to be offended about.

Let me be clear, because perhaps my original wording was not.  My comments were meant with an in-game view only.  I deliberately posted the message about avoiding the real-world politics as I was attempting to have a little fun and NOT trying to drag real-world sentiment into this.  I'm not truly offended by any of it.  It is just a game.  I was trying to look at it as might one of my characters.  As such, I accept @cranebump's explanation: in the game there are unsettling viewpoints held and they have access to billboards.  That there may be real-world comparisons was also not my point. 

 

I really was indeed curious about the first billboard though.  I'm not clear why it  sounded like visually-different Rikti hiding among humans. 

[ZemX]

I don't think avoiding real world comparisons is possible on this one.  They were already developing this game when 9/11 happened.  So this was being developed as we were going through a period of exactly this same kind of hyper-nationalistic reaction to an outside attack.   

 

What about the aliens on our side in Paragon City?  If true to human nature...  they'd be getting attacked, harassed, or suspected just as we did the same to Americans of certain ethnicities and national backgrounds in the years following 9/11.  Or you can go farther back and look at Japanese internment camps during WW2. Probably countless other example throughout human history and around the globe.

 

tl;dr: People suck. 

 

Granted, this is fiction.  But it's also based in our real world to some extent.  We don't have to imagine a world where people are as shitty as they are in the real one... but it's not exactly entirely out of bounds either.  This billboard is probably rather tame compared to what would likely happen following a real extra-terrestrial attack on Earth.

[cranebump]

30 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I really was indeed curious about the first billboard though.  I'm not clear why it  sounded like visually-different Rikti hiding among humans. 

This is the part I'm most curious about. I know Nem has his simulacrums, but the Rikti? Where are these "aliens among us?" Is there a story arc that covers this angle? We have the Lost being transformed into Rikti, but is this who they're referring to?

 

I feel consistency with the Lore ought to be standard for something like this. If it alludes to lore, then we have an in game explanation for it. I'm guessing here is one for the billboard, though I don't know what it is for sure.

 

As for how offensive it may be, I find it rather tame. Among other things, Paragon City has pseudo-Nazis, occultists and demon-worshippers. We have the Malta Group. For all I know, they're the ones who paid for the billboards. (though I think it has to be a nemesis plot)

Edited April 26, 2023 by cranebump

[Snarky]

You cannot have a good story without drama.  All art (paintings, sculptures, stories, songs, movies etc) pull from human experience and history.  It has been said it is only "Art" if it evokes a response from the person interacting/viewing/reading the piece.

 

Given these facts it is impossible to avoid cultural representations in a good dramatic game.  Having said that we do not need to dive into current political and religious hot button issues.  There are plenty of tropes going back millennia.  The 'outsider" is a trope that has many representations.  One of them is the blood sucking creature hanging out in the night at the edge of the village...

[ZemX]

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Now I want this as a wall poster!

[SarahTheM1]

21 hours ago, Vindicator said:

The billboards are written in context to anti-alien sentiment caused by the Rikti invasion, and are therefore fine as they are.  As stated, the billboards tie into the story and are not "amazingly out of date and out of sync with the game as it is now".  Also as stated, Paragon City is in a fictional United States so there should be nothing "jarring" about seeing an American flag on a billboard.  Now, stop being overly sensitive and looking for things to be offended about.

Weird to quote my words in particular when my post already explained it pretty clearly. Yes, they tie into the story of the Rikti War and in that context they make sense. The problem is that said invasion happened several years ago now (in-game timeline is a bit fuzzy nowadays, but clearly a good chunk of time has passed) and if we do take the billboards as being from the Vanguard, well, they certainly don't seem to be that staunchly anti-alien anymore. Not just with regards to player characters, but things like peace talks with the Traditionalists. So yes, in that sense they are outdated and out of sync with the state of the game world as it currently stands.

 

14 hours ago, cranebump said:

This is the part I'm most curious about. I know Nem has his simulacrums, but the Rikti? Where are these "aliens among us?" Is there a story arc that covers this angle? We have the Lost being transformed into Rikti, but is this who they're referring to?

 

I feel consistency with the Lore ought to be standard for something like this. If it alludes to lore, then we have an in game explanation for it. I'm guessing here is one for the billboard, though I don't know what it is for sure.

 

As for how offensive it may be, I find it rather tame. Among other things, Paragon City has pseudo-Nazis, occultists and demon-worshippers. We have the Malta Group. For all I know, they're the ones who paid for the billboards. (though I think it has to be a nemesis plot)

To paraphrase from the story bible, the Rikti got stranded on Primal Earth due to the efforts of Omega Team. Now cut off from the homeworld, they couldn't maintain their equipment for much longer. So they concocted a plan to trick us humans into doing their work for them - leak key Rikti tech to unscrupulous companies (like Crey), let them reverse engineer it, and then watch as they unknowingly manufacture replacement parts for the Rikti army. In order to help facilitate this, they used a small clutch of remaining genetic resequencing machines to change Rikti back into humans (which would normally be unconscionable to them, but they were desperate). After some failed attempts they succeeded and these spies wandered out into the post-war world to oh-so helpfully hand over bits of Rikti tech they "found" to willing buyers.

 

If any of this made it into actual pre-CoV story content, it's buried in one-off missions somewhere and not any key story arcs. With CoV though, along comes Kelly Uqua who directly addresses the concept.

[Hedgefund]

To the folks unfamiliar with Rikti infiltrators do the Kelly Uqua arc and read the hints along the way.

[huang3721]

1 hour ago, SarahTheM1 said:

The problem is that said invasion happened several years ago now (in-game timeline is a bit fuzzy nowadays, but clearly a good chunk of time has passed)

 

The hostility hasn't ceased yet, though.

Not much has changed after Dark Watcher's arc. The Restructurist faction is still out there trying to contact their homeworld, which still has no idea about Nemesis' machination. 

On the other hand, human raiders keep harassing and looting Rikti's bases, regardless of their faction. 

 

Also, are you sure the time has passed? This game uses comic book time. It's quite possible the whole story up until the "present time" took place before 2010.

 

IMO, the billboard isn't outdated yet. 

 

[cranebump]

1 hour ago, Hedgefund said:

To the folks unfamiliar with Rikti infiltrators do the Kelly Uqua arc and read the hints along the way.

So it’s on red side. Hm. I’ll have to check the wiki. 

[Vindicator]

4 hours ago, SarahTheM1 said:

So yes, in that sense they are outdated and out of sync with the state of the game world as it currently stands.

 

Incorrect.  See below.

 

2 hours ago, huang3721 said:

 

The hostility hasn't ceased yet, though.

Not much has changed after Dark Watcher's arc. The Restructurist faction is still out there trying to contact their homeworld, which still has no idea about Nemesis' machination. 

On the other hand, human raiders keep harassing and looting Rikti's bases, regardless of their faction. 

 

Also, are you sure the time has passed? This game uses comic book time. It's quite possible the whole story up until the "present time" took place before 2010.

 

IMO, the billboard isn't outdated yet. 

 

 

Correct.  The billboard is not outdated, nor will it ever be because there will always be anti-alien sentiment amongst some of the population.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Vindicator

[SarahTheM1]

Apparently we have very, very different understandings of the in-game timeline.

 

Edit: I guess I will also repeat that, at least to me based on the (admittedly limited, open-ended) evidence, the billboards are potentially meant to be from the Vanguard or an adjacent government agency. The government saying "oohrah, all aliens GTFO" lands quite a bit differently from the premise of "some jerk bought a billboard just to say he doesn't like aliens". So that's ultimately the dividing line here.

Edited April 27, 2023 by SarahTheM1

[SeraphimKensai]

The one of the left strangely reminds me of Lady Grey for some reason. Maybe there's a storm coming and we just don't know it yet?

[SarahTheM1]

Helpful visual aid btw, since I didn't have a pic of it handy before now:

Same overall design as the other two. The bottom line isn't something you'd see on a random "grr argh aliens go home" anti-alien billboard, it's instead right out of classic propaganda posters, implying all of these are official post-Rikti War propaganda.

 

Which like I said, as relics contemporary with the War (or more accurately the very immediate post-War recovery period) they're a bit unsavory but not out of place. Ten~ years on and after a ton of regrowth and a fresh population of perfectly friendly alien pals running around, Vanguard could stand to take it down a notch.

 

Edit: Otherwise, I do agree that Joe Q. Public might plausibly still have an axe to grind when it comes to aliens. I mean, we don't even need to be talking about the Rikti at all, Galaxy City more or less just happened. My only problem then is that it begs further questions like whether the city would allow billboards of that nature to be put up in the first place.

Edited April 27, 2023 by SarahTheM1