Minmax Melee Archetype Comparison & Tier List

[Ston]

My Discord: @Ston#0707

 

This will be a WIP as long as I'm playing this game, but I've finally wrapped up some initial results for all the primary powersets of melee archetypes. My goal is to get a baseline of how sets compare with each other before any new changes come out (particularly changes to archetypes and procs). All of this testing was done with what has worked best for me. I don't claim to be an expert on each AT & powerset, but I did do several rounds for each and used what got the best results.

 

Hope this can give some of you guys some useful information when it comes to melee ATs! 😄

 

As I update results, I'll change the screenshots on this post and make a changelog at the bottom.

 

Tests Performed

• Pylon ST DPS Test
  • A lot of players are familiar with Pylon tests at this point. Basically, a Rikti Pylon offers a stationary target with standard resist/hp that you use to test your ST DPS.
  • *** I do not claim that every attack chain used in these tests are the best possible for each powerset. I tested several for each and used what was getting me the best results. Would be happy to test better chains if suggested. ***
• Trapdoor AoE/ST Clear Speed Test (Stalkers omitted)
  • A repeatable mission meant to be run solo on +4/x8 notoriety to measure how fast you clean clear large groups of enemies that include bosses and an Elite Boss at the end. Enemy groups are Council and Arachnos with a wide variety of debuffs and resistances you have to deal with.
  • Stalkers were omitted from this test since they don't have a taunt aura to manage aggro and would have too much variance. Just know they would be the slowest by far.

 

Test Parameters

• All tests use a standard Willpower build that is identical for everything except for primary powerset slotting. This includes all pool powers (Speed, Leaping, Fighting, Leadership) and epic powers. I do believe that pool/epic powers should be included for these tests as they use archetype damage modifiers.
  • Scrappers/Stalkers use Mu Mastery for Zapp & Ball Lightning
  • Tankers/Brutes use Soul Mastery for Gloom & Dark Obliteration
• All builds use the same incarnate powers.
  • T4 Musculature Radial
  • T4 Degenerative Core (For Pylon tests) & T4 Reactive Core (For Trapdoor tests)
  • T4 Ageless Core
  • T4 Assault Core (Active for Pylon tests, Passive for Trapdoor tests)
• All attacks had a 95% chance to hit
• Attacks use the same slotting approaches for Brutes/Tankers and Scrappers/Stalkers. The goal is to maximize the average damage output for each attack.
  • Scrappers/Stalkers use 2 acc/dam HOs + 4 procs. This puts them at the Enhancement Diversification damage cap to get the most out of crit damage and then as much proc damage/utility on top of that with the remaining slots
  • Brutes/Tankers use as many procs as possible. For most builds, this was 6 damage/utility procs per attack. This is the best way to get the most damage out of these ATs since they can't get as much average base damage as Scrapper/Stalkers.
    • Any powers that could not take 6 procs would have a lvl 53 acc/dam HO put in the remaining slot(s). This only applied to a small number of powers.
    • I ran tests where I slotted attacks with acc/dam HOs and they were consistently slower on average than using as many procs as possible.

 

Pylon Test Results

 

 

 

 

 

Pylon/Tradoor Averages

 

 

 

 

Tier List

 

 

Commentary on tier list (more emphasis on ST DPS when considering Stalker rankings):

S-Tiers: Exceptional AoE and ST DPS. Fast animations. Good proc opportunities.
A-Tiers: Very good AoE and ST DPS. Fast animations. Good proc opportunities.

B-Tiers: Either very good AoE or ST DPS. Decent animations. Good proc opportunities.

C-Tiers: Okay AoE or ST DPS. Slower animations. Decent proc opportunities.

D-Tiers: Poor AoE or ST DPS. Slower animations. Lacking proc opportunities.

Builds used:

tanker_builds.zip
scrapper_builds.zip
brute_builds.zip
stalker_builds.zip

Edited June 7 by Ston

[Doogleburg]

You are a Data God among men. 

Ston is a legend in the world of City of Heroes, known far and wide for his unrivaled expertise in testing builds. His dedication to understanding every intricate detail of the game's mechanics was unmatched. Armed with an encyclopedic knowledge of powers, synergies, and strategies, Ston has an uncanny ability to optimize hero builds, transforming them into unstoppable forces. His relentless pursuit of perfection drove him to spend countless hours meticulously experimenting with different combinations and fine-tuning each aspect of his characters. Ston's passion and unwavering commitment to excellence made him the go-to guru for build advice among both seasoned veterans and newcomers alike. Whether it was maximizing damage output, survivability, or utility, Ston's expertise in testing builds was nothing short of extraordinary, earning him the admiration and respect of the entire City of Heroes community.

[BuiltDifferent5]

Fiery Melee on a Tanker seems…. Very strong lol

Edited May 21, 2023 by BuiltDifferent5

[Gobbledigook]

How much +recharge was in the builds?

 

A non damage proc test may be a good comparison just to see how much difference adding damage procs really makes.

 

I am quite surprised about Martial Arts performing as well it did. Go MA! 🙂

 

TW is still a good performer.

 

Poor KM 😢

Edited May 21, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[twozerofoxtrot]

Howling with delight seeing Savage at S-Tier on Stalkers. Something I always felt but wasn't willing to nug the data out to prove the Helpchat Mob wrong.

 

Otherwise, no real surprises here for me. Glad there's numbers up there to defray all the hyperbole about TW's demise or Brute's lack of a place in the game.

[Glacier Peak]

Well balanced, visually appealing - Fire Melee is in such a great spot!

 

How much of this work will survive the coming apocryphal Aprocalypse?

Edited May 21, 2023 by Glacier Peak

[TurboRaptor]

3 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Howling with delight seeing Savage at S-Tier on Stalkers. Something I always felt but wasn't willing to nug the data out to prove the Helpchat Mob wrong.

 

Otherwise, no real surprises here for me. Glad there's numbers up there to defray all the hyperbole about TW's demise or Brute's lack of a place in the game.

you will never prove the helpchat mob wrong even if you do

[Glacier Peak]

17 hours ago, Ston said:

My Discord: @Ston#0707

 

This will be a WIP as long as I'm playing this game, but I've finally wrapped up some initial results for all the primary powersets of melee archetypes. My goal is to get a baseline of how sets compare with each other before any new changes come out (particularly changes to archetypes and procs). All of this testing was done with what has worked best for me. I don't claim to be an expert on each AT & powerset, but I did do several rounds for each and used what got the best results.

 

Hope this can give some of you guys some useful information when it comes to melee ATs! 😄

 

As I update results, I'll change the screenshots on this post and make a changelog at the bottom.

 

Tests Performed

• Pylon ST DPS Test
  • A lot of players are familiar with Pylon tests at this point. Basically, a Rikti Pylon offers a stationary target with standard resist/hp that you use to test your ST DPS.
  • *** I do not claim that every attack chain used in these tests are the best possible for each powerset. I tested several for each and used what was getting me the best results. Would be happy to test better chains if suggested. ***
• Trapdoor AoE/ST Clear Speed Test (Stalkers omitted)
  • A repeatable mission meant to be run solo on +4/x8 notoriety to measure how fast you clean clear large groups of enemies that include bosses and an Elite Boss at the end. Enemy groups are Council and Arachnos with a wide variety of debuffs and resistances you have to deal with.
  • Stalkers were omitted from this test since they don't have a taunt aura to manage aggro and would have too much variance. Just know they would be the slowest by far.

 

Test Parameters

• All tests use a standard Willpower build that is identical for everything except for primary powerset slotting. This includes all pool powers (Speed, Leaping, Fighting, Leadership) and epic powers. I do believe that pool/epic powers should be included for these tests as they use archetype damage modifiers.
  • Scrappers/Stalkers use Mu Mastery for Zapp & Ball Lightning
  • Tankers/Brutes use Soul Mastery for Gloom & Dark Obliteration
• All builds use the same incarnate powers.
  • T4 Musculature Radial
  • T4 Degenerative Core (For Pylon tests) & T4 Reactive Core (For Trapdoor tests)
  • T4 Ageless Core
  • T4 Assault Core (Active for Pylon tests, Passive for Trapdoor tests)
• All attacks had a 95% chance to hit
• Attacks use the same slotting approaches for Brutes/Tankers and Scrappers/Stalkers. The goal is to maximize the average damage output for each attack.
  • Scrappers/Stalkers use 2 acc/dam HOs + 4 procs. This puts them at the Enhancement Diversification damage cap to get the most out of crit damage and then as much proc damage/utility on top of that with the remaining slots
  • Brutes/Tankers use as many procs as possible. For most builds, this was 6 damage/utility procs per attack. This is the best way to get the most damage out of these ATs since they can't get as much average base damage as Scrapper/Stalkers.
    • Any powers that could not take 6 procs would have a lvl 53 acc/dam HO put in the remaining slot(s). This only applied to a small number of powers.
    • I ran tests where I slotted attacks with acc/dam HOs and they were consistently slower on average than using as many procs as possible.

 

Pylon Test Results

 

 

 

 

 

Pylon/Tradoor Averages

 

 

 

 

Tier List

 

 

Commentary on tier list (more emphasis on ST DPS when considering Stalker rankings):

S-Tiers: Exceptional AoE and ST DPS. Fast animations. Good proc opportunities.
A-Tiers: Very good AoE and ST DPS. Fast animations. Good proc opportunities.

B-Tiers: Either very good AoE or ST DPS. Decent animations. Good proc opportunities.

C-Tiers: Okay AoE or ST DPS. Slower animations. Decent proc opportunities.

D-Tiers: Poor AoE or ST DPS. Slower animations. Lacking proc opportunities.

Man that Stalker Psi Melee Pylon time has me scratching my head. GPB drops a truckload of damage, procs well and often, and comes back quick in the rotation. My anecdotal experience makes me feel like the data you provided may not show off it's potential entirely. Was Boggle used to increase the chance of Insight? 

[Ston]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Man that Stalker Psi Melee Pylon time has me scratching my head. GPB drops a truckload of damage, procs well and often, and comes back quick in the rotation. My anecdotal experience makes me feel like the data you provided may not show off it's potential entirely. Was Boggle used to increase the chance of Insight? 

 

I didn’t use Boggle and wasn’t even aware of that interaction. But I’m gonna retest them all with that in mind because I would like to see better ST times for Psi. 

 

GPB was definitely hitting hard. Probably has comparable burst damage to the top sets. But the randomness of insight might have been slowing it down, but I’ll try it out with Boggle!

[Brutal Justice]

Thanks for all the hard work and time spent to help the game.  
 

That said.  I never like these sort of tests because it always comes down to the same thing that I feel is not very reflective of the actual sets.  That thing?  Which sets have two high dpa attacks then add gloom/snipe and cross punch.  Rinse.  Repeat.  50% of the test isn’t even the power set being tested.   

[Glacier Peak]

14 minutes ago, Ston said:

I didn’t use Boggle and wasn’t even aware of that interaction. But I’m gonna retest them all with that in mind because I would like to see better ST times for Psi. 

 

GPB was definitely hitting hard. Probably has comparable burst damage to the top sets. But the randomness of insight might have been slowing it down, but I’ll try it out with Boggle!

Before you go down that road, I will add that there is often time in the rotation for ST attacks to fill with Boggle.

 

Telekinetic Blow, Assassin's Psi Blade, Greater Psi Blade are the primary ST hitters to rotate with. Fill in holes with Placate, Concentration, and Boggle as needed. To me, Boggle is an opener - cast it on the Pylon prior to engaging (it doesn't notify mob), have that added Insight chance in the pocket and then carry out the normal attack rotation. 

 

A great breakdown of Scrapper Boggle Insight chances from @Replacement below (and link to thread):

 

Quote

Item #1: "Boggled" is a granted power.

What this means is when you use "Boggle" on someone, they are granted an "empty" power that does nothing but gives them the Boggled condition.

Your other Psionic Melee attacks then run a check on-hit: If the enemy possesses "Boggled," your chance for +Insight is doubled. 

 

The important takeaway is that even if they aren't confused (e.g. soloing an AV), Boggling them still doubles your chances to gain Insight.

 

Item #2: Insight Chances per attack

 

Power Name	Insight Chance
Psionic Melee	Standard	Boggled
Mental Strike	8.89%	17.78%
Psi Blade	14.07%	28.13%
Telekinetic Blow	23.27%	46.53%
Psi Blade Sweep	19.04%	38.09%
Assassin's Strike (Stealth)	71.11%	100%
Assassin's Strike (Quick)	35.56%	71.11%
Mass Levitate	20%	40%

 

You can see Assassin's Strike is heavily skewed towards granting Insight, which is in keeping with the fact that (Oh, Item #3 maybe:)  Boggle is non-notify.

 

If you're solo and have the time, at least, you can Boggle>AS to guarantee yourself Insight.  I had intended to do exactly this vs a Boss or EB to test my Item #1 is as true as the data seems to tell me, but it's pinnacle me to only get 99% of the way through a proj-

 

Caveats

• Numbers in table are based on Scrapper.  This should not make a difference.
  • With the exception of GPB, damage is a DoT effect.
• Numbers below are presented in scale.  If you are unfamiliar, this is simply the base number which is multiplied by your AT modifier (which itself has a current level check built into it.)
  • Tl;dr: this is base damage.
• Dot has a 20% chance to "miss" and cancel remaining ticks.  Average DPS increase is thus a probability equation best suited to someone else.  I am reporting max ticks only.
• All of my math is suspect.  At all times.

 

Insight Damage contribution

Power Name	Standard Damage	Insight Damage	Max % Provided
Mental Strike	.84	.084 x3	30%
Psi Blade	1.14	.2285 x3	60%*
Telekinetic Blow	1.8	.18 x3	30%
Psi Blade Sweep	1.44	.236 x3	49.1%
Greater Psi Blade	2.76	1.38 Strike	50%
Mass Levitate	1.42	.142 x3	30%

Assassin's Strike (both versions) do not gain any Insight benefit.

 

* According to my sus math, Psi Blade requires two ticks from Insight to beat Mental Strike in DPA, hence they greatly enhanced Insight damage it gains.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Glacier Peak

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Thanks for all the hard work and time spent to help the game.  
 

That said.  I never like these sort of tests because it always comes down to the same thing that I feel is not very reflective of the actual sets.  That thing?  Which sets have two high dpa attacks then add gloom/snipe and cross punch.  Rinse.  Repeat.  50% of the test isn’t even the power set being tested.   

 

I agree, one playstyle across the number of archetypes and power sets we have access to is bound to have holes and can be inherently flawed. However. @Ston put in the time and gathered a bunch of data from their perspective on min/maxed endgame builds. Kudos Ston in providing some insight into one slice of the game.

 

 

Times are available from other players in the pylon and trapdoor threads. If a rank here seems like an outlier, I believe Ston would want that feedback.

 

[ScarySai]

For the longest time, I've felt like the only person vouching real hard for savage. I only find it weakest on scrapper due to the lack of a really reliable ATO proc mule that isn't also something you'd want to crit. It's either vicious or leap, but you want both to crit.

Edited May 21, 2023 by ScarySai

[Frosticus]

39 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Before you go down that road, I will add that there is often time in the rotation for ST attacks to fill with Boggle.

 

Telekinetic Blow, Assassin's Psi Blade, Greater Psi Blade are the primary ST hitters to rotate with. Fill in holes with Placate, Concentration, and Boggle as needed. To me, Boggle is an opener - cast it on the Pylon prior to engaging (it doesn't notify mob), have that added Insight chance in the pocket and then carry out the normal attack rotation. 

 

It would depend on how people time their pylon runs. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I start the timer when I begin interacting with the target. So powers like surveillance, storm cell, boggle, phantom army, etc doesn't really matter that they don't agro the pylon on to me, the timer starts the moment I activate those powers. 

 

It isn't always a perfect reflection of in game performance though because like you indicate you can use boggle as you are jumping toward a boss with minimal interruption, but at least for pylons you probably want to avoid some ill/storm dragging PA and tornado from around the corner and pretending it had no impact on the run. 

 

 

[Frosticus]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

For the longest time, I've felt like the only person vouching real hard for savage. I only find it weakest on scrapper due to the lack of a really reliable ATO proc mule that isn't also something you'd want to crit. It's either vicious or leap, but you want both to crit.

 

I feel similar about vouching for savage stalkers. Pre-hemo nerf they were above all others, post nerf they are still a good ST set and still head and shoulders above the others for AOE. 

[BuiltDifferent5]

27 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

For the longest time, I've felt like the only person vouching real hard for savage. I only find it weakest on scrapper due to the lack of a really reliable ATO proc mule that isn't also something you'd want to crit. It's either vicious or leap, but you want both to crit.

 

12 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

 

I feel similar about vouching for savage stalkers. Pre-hemo nerf they were above all others, post nerf they are still a good ST set and still head and shoulders above the others for AOE. 

And it STILL seems to perform well on a Scrapper.

 

I’ve heard a Savage/Bio Brute is insane with all the DOTs it does ramped by Fury

[Ston]

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

Thanks for all the hard work and time spent to help the game.  
 

That said.  I never like these sort of tests because it always comes down to the same thing that I feel is not very reflective of the actual sets.  That thing?  Which sets have two high dpa attacks then add gloom/snipe and cross punch.  Rinse.  Repeat.  50% of the test isn’t even the power set being tested.   

 

This is fair. But yeah I’m pretty opinionated on the test parameters. My goal was to see what DPS each set is capable of. Gloom/Snipe are pretty standard, yeah. But sets like KM and Staff rely so much on CP and Gloom and it’s reflected by their results. 

 

You have sets like Katana that can make a full chain without Cross Punch that does really good DPS, and it just isn’t possible on the weaker sets.

 

If a set is carried by Cross Punch and Gloom, I wanted to measure that in this test then see if any improvements are made in the future. If i did just primary powerset powers, the gaps between sets would be even wider.

 

It doesn’t necessarily need to be high DPA attacks either. Eagle’s Claw is relatively low DPA for a T9 attack but the bonuses it has end up making it worth it. Sky Splitter, for example, is just abysmal in almost every way and nothing really makes it worth using.

[Ston]

7 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

How much +recharge was in the builds?

 

A non damage proc test may be a good comparison just to see how much difference adding damage procs really makes.

 

I am quite surprised about Martial Arts performing as well it did. Go MA! 🙂

 

TW is still a good performer.

 

Poor KM 😢

 

Each build had about 90-100% recharge before hasten. I’ll add a .zip for all the builds used soon!

 

I don’t think i’ll have the energy to do non proc tests for all of them, but I’ll do it for a couple sets to see how things measure up!

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Ston said:

 

Each build had about 90-100% recharge before hasten. I’ll add a .zip for all the builds used soon!

 

I don’t think i’ll have the energy to do non proc tests for all of them, but I’ll do it for a couple sets to see how things measure up!

Yes that decent recharge. Some sets benefit from recharge.

 

Maybe just pick a top performer from each AT and test them only. Stalker could be the awkward set though. TW or MaA could be a good one to test for Brute/Scrapper/Tanker.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[Sovera]

Hopefully you're not using -res procs for the pylon tests otherwise this horribly skews the sets between the have and have nots, while at the same time having little to no impact on regular gameplay.

[Ston]

7 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Hopefully you're not using -res procs for the pylon tests otherwise this horribly skews the sets between the have and have nots, while at the same time having little to no impact on regular gameplay.

 

I was using -res procs. I would use both if possible. If you look at the table, I made a column for how many -res procs each set had.

 

I understand this is useless if you have teammates with the same proc, but the intention of this test was to measure solo DPS. 

 

It might make a set like Katana look better than it really is, but either way it has access to -40% resistance reliably which is pretty significant. 

 

A set like Kinetic Melee will have to get it from Cross Punch, but i don’t think it would compete with Katana either way. It might depend on the enemy, but I doubt it’s highly skewed. 

 

If i wanted the most accurate results, I’d have to do the math for each set to measure how much of each damage type they’re dealing (including procs) and compare that against the average resistances that enemies have throughout the game.

[Wravis]

Kinetic Melee is my favorite melee set that isn't Night Widow. I knew it was bad. This saddens me though.

[Ston]

9 minutes ago, Wravis said:

Kinetic Melee is my favorite melee set that isn't Night Widow. I knew it was bad. This saddens me though.

 

There’s no problem with that! I’ve spent more time with Kinetic Melee and Staff Melee than any other set because it’s fun trying to get the most out of them. They aren’t THAT far off from the rest, everything can get the job done in this game 😄 Just need a couple buffs to level the playing field!

[Sovera]

Just now, Ston said:

 

I was using -res procs. I would use both if possible. If you look at the table, I made a column for how many -res procs each set had.

 

I understand this is useless if you have teammates with the same proc, but the intention of this test was to measure solo DPS. 

 

It might make a set like Katana look better than it really is, but either way it has access to -40% resistance reliably which is pretty significant. 

 

A set like Kinetic Melee will have to get it from Cross Punch, but i don’t think it would compete with Katana either way. It might depend on the enemy, but I doubt it’s highly skewed. 

 

If i wanted the most accurate results, I’d have to do the math for each set to measure how much of each damage type they’re dealing (including procs) and compare that against the average resistances that enemies have throughout the game.

 

I may be missing something but the column under -res procs is blank which would suggest none were used.

 

My suggestion would be to have these tests done without the -res procs. They unrealistically boost damage by as much as 25% on a pylon if using both procs which gives a really false idea of a set's 'power'.

 

I would not be surprised if most of what made Fire Melee climb the rankings was as much the animation trimming as the Achilles' -res being slotted. Just seeing your comment on fishing for -res procs with Cross Punch shows how much the pylon tests influence use those IOs.

 

Hitting a +3 AV reduces the damage boost to (not by, but to) 4-5%, and on regular gameplay (Trapdoor for example) the -res procs have shown to not make a difference if replaced by damage procs. But for the pylons it propels any and every set that can slot these against any other set that cannot. This wouldn't be so much of a pet peeve if the power of the -res procs was uniform but outside of pylons it's either small or gone to place so much import into them.

 

 

Regardless, your testing, your data, and re-testing everything would be colossal considering the time you've already poured into this project.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Wravis said:

Kinetic Melee is my favorite melee set that isn't Night Widow. I knew it was bad. This saddens me though.

 

So and so. It is bad, but in this context the fact it cannot slot any -res procs automatically gives it a damage loss. Ston is also using Concentrated Strike which has been mathed out as bad when opposed to just using the first three attacks. But it won't do miracles since the set needs a good pass.

[BuiltDifferent5]

1 hour ago, Ston said:

 

There’s no problem with that! I’ve spent more time with Kinetic Melee and Staff Melee than any other set because it’s fun trying to get the most out of them. They aren’t THAT far off from the rest, everything can get the job done in this game 😄 Just need a couple buffs to level the playing field!

Confirmed: Ston is a KM and Staff main who went through all this just to get their sets buffed 😂