The Devs Need Our Help!

[TheZag]

7 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Is there a modern 3D tool which is capable of doing the task? Could not the Homecoming team add the cost of said tool into monthly funding?

 

The best bet would probably be blender.  Its free and open source but doesnt work with city of heroes.  It can have custom add-ons though so it potentially could have an add-on written that adds support for the CoH file format.  That is outside my skillset and probably would be much harder to make it work than this post would lead people to believe.

 

[Herotu]

4 hours ago, TheZag said:

 

The best bet would probably be blender.  Its free and open source but doesnt work with city of heroes.  It can have custom add-ons though so it potentially could have an add-on written that adds support for the CoH file format.  That is outside my skillset and probably would be much harder to make it work than this post would lead people to believe.

 

Looking at the applicants for future development, the skillsets of the players are deep and broad. I'd be extremely surprised if none of those people knew how to create a plug-in/library/whatever.

 

The filetype itself seems like it might be unique, however, so we need to fathom how it lays out it's data, and that might be very tricky because it could be a flexible filetype. I've been hex editing Dragon Age Inquisition's EBX binaries for a few years - I hope it's not as complicated as that. 

[Number Six]

The anim format is extremely simple, it's just a list of bones and positions / quat rotations for each bone on each frame. Note that means you cannot IMPORT an existing anim file and get anything useful. You won't have any keyframes or animation curves. You need the max files to use for reference. Anim is strictly an end target.

 

Geo is a lot more complicated.

 

Both anim and geo can be exported from 3dsmax through a somewhat roundabout workflow involving a 3dsmax plugin to write a nonstandard VRML variant that gets run through a converter tool.

 

There is a python-based geo exporter for blender floating around out there, but it's not complete, has some bugs, and doesn't fully/correctly implement all the sections of the geo format which would cause problems later, so most serious asset work is done in 3dsmax. Animations have to be done in max. A bigger problem than file formats is that the source files we have are all in max format and the concepts used don't map 1:1 to other software. For animation work you really need that source data so you have an existing skeleton to work off of.

 

None of that is connected to what Cobalt and Namoi were talking about. Most of the time involved in creating animations isn't modeling and animating, it's testing with the thousands of combinations of body types, costume parts, and sliders to make sure that things meet our quality standards. Those are that there shouldn't be obvious clipping with the "default" settings, and a little clipping is okay if it's limited to certain slider settings or when combined with certain other parts, but it should be a small amount. Stuff like too high/low poly count or holes that let you see into the hollow interior of the player model are huge no-nos. There's a certain amount of subjectivity involved but things have to pass muster and not have too high a "jank factor".

 

What we really need more than tools are artists who have the time to work with Naomi and learn the workflow and the ins and outs of the art style. Support for other tools may eventually help with that some by expending the pool of artists available since there aren't many with 3dsmax experience, but it means translating all that knowledge into other software which is not an easy task. There's no quick fix for that.

[Bionic_Flea]

What we really need is to clone Number Six at least twice!  Six, Six, Six. . . . Oh God.  What have I done!

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, Number Six said:

The anim format is extremely simple, it's just a list of bones and positions /

 

 

It was at this point my mind went off on a tangent

 

 

you're welcome!

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, Number Six said:

artists

 

I'm trying not to get into some kind of syntax battle here, but are  you talking about artists, animators, or mod creators?

 

I know I don't have the ability to create character figures or assets from the ground-up.

But I have experience modifying costumes and animating ... obviously with completely different tools than CoH uses.

 

10 hours ago, Number Six said:

3dsmax

 

This is a step in the correct direction. 

Now we have the software tool that is being used.

 

10 hours ago, Number Six said:

Most of the time involved in creating animations isn't modeling and animating, it's testing with the thousands of combinations of body types, costume parts, and sliders to make sure that things meet our quality standards.

 

People may very well volunteer to help with this if they know who or how to volunteer to do so.

 

10 hours ago, Number Six said:

For animation work you really need that source data so you have an existing skeleton to work off of.

 

I kind of have this out of order, but how do we get the "existing skeleton"(s) to work off of?

 

I have no idea if I would be able to put the time necessary into this, but there seems to be a handful of people that want to try to help out.

I'm assuming that they would need to focus to assist on DEV lead projects instead of individually taking on their own projects and then submitting them once they think that they "have something".

A good example is the clipping testing on animations.

[BurtHutt]

I haven't been around as much but would like to thank the HC Devs for all they do.

 

Do they need help? Sure. But too many cooks in the kitchen and various other reasons makes that difficult, I'm sure. That and I have no idea how they operate doesn't give me an option to suggest or discuss. HC team is rather secretive and that's their right to be. I feel the biggest help could be adding content via my age old AE idea but that doesn't seem to be an option either - yes, 3+ years of trying and they still haven't given in! 🙂

 

Anyway, it's nice to see people wanting to help but it's not always that easy.

[Number Six]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I kind of have this out of order, but how do we get the "existing skeleton"(s) to work off of?

 

There are 3dsmax files for some of the models and animations out there. I can't link to them because of the dubious legality issues, but if you check the usual spots for COH-related development they shouldn't be too hard to find. Something about dolphins if I remember correctly.

 

Those are the same ones we have. Nobody (including us) has a complete set that covers everything.

[Herotu]

 

It seems like there's a plethora of problems in working with these ancient and arcane filetypes. I can't find anything about .GEO files on the internet.

 

I'd like to try to summarise the filetype information Six has kindly provided.

 

3DSMax

3dsmax [via plugin] -> nonstandard VRML -> converter tool = Anim/Geo file.

Source files we have are all in max format and the concepts used don't map 1:1 to other software.

 

Blender

geo exporter [Python] for blender is not complete, has some bugs, and doesn't fully/correctly implement all the sections of the geo format.

 

 

[Number Six]

Geo is also a custom format unique to the COH engine. You're not going to find anything about it on the Internet. If you want to create tools to work with them, the only place to go for information is the source code of the game itself, which is findable in the same places I mentioned earlier. Ask around on Discord if unsure.

 

Experience coding in C is advised.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

Experience coding in C is advised.

 

And here the live devs told us all we really needed to know was Excel! 😉

[Without_Pause]

I'm currently trying to fix an issue in a C++  CLI app. I don't envy anyone working with C even if it is more simplified as a language. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Without_Pause

[RCU7115]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:26 AM, BjorJlen said:

Because... that's how everything is fixed these days it seems. Just hit it with a frying pan, and be done with it. lol

What happened to a Sledge Hammer & Duct Tape fixes everything ?

[High_Beam]

On 7/15/2023 at 2:08 PM, RCU7115 said:

What happened to a Sledge Hammer

Actually a very funny show.

[lemming]

3 hours ago, High_Beam said:

Actually a very funny show.

I had a Dual Pistols/Devices blaster for a bit based on him.

[TheZag]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:08 AM, Number Six said:

Experience coding in C is advised.

 

Tell the people they could code Doom to run in an animation and you will have 500 youtubers making all the conversion tools you would ever want in about 2 weeks 😛

 

[Troo]