The Devs Need Our Help!

[Herotu]

Cobolt Arachne stated here that the devs' tools are holding back development. Surely we have people who have the know-how regarding this matter? I will jump to ill-informed conclusions below.

  

On 6/5/2023 at 4:23 PM, Cobalt Arachne said:

Naomi told me it took them about roughly ~24 hours of work to create each single(1) second of new animation across all three models for the inner tube emotes using the one extremely old animation application we have that is compatible with City of Heroes.

Until we have modern 3D tool compatibility that allows our limited time investments to pay-off in a realistic way, this is a 0% chance.
Time is our most restrictive and valuable resource as volunteer developers, anything with an extremely poor/disproportionate amount of work-to-results ratio is basically not going to happen.

Terms:

In the below Ill-informed conclusions, the term

old format 

means the format of file which the game would use.

 

Ill-informed conclusions:

I would imagine that the problem could be alleviated if modern tools had either

• the capability to export animations in old format or
• if an exported modern file could be converted to the old format.

 

Would this involve the writing of libraries and suchlike? If we know what's required, some of us have such knowledge or contacts who do.

I invite you all to offer opinion and assistance if you can below.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Herotu

[Greycat]

I think what we'd need to know (not that I'm in a space to do any development past "Hello, world" - I hate hunting for semicolons) would include -

- what tools they're using now

- what formats, compatibility info, etc.

- What they'd actually need.

 

I *believe* we're still actively missing stuff that was used by the live dev team - I want to say I remember something about an old plugin that was some combination of hard to find, expensive and/or not supported that was used for models or costumes? It's been a while - but those tools themselves are dinosaurs by modern standards anyway.

 

Honestly, we'd need the associated devs to speak up and say what's wrong, what's needed, what works or doesn't.

[honoroit]

it isnt easy expanding a project, and this is closed source.  changes from whatever was made available way back when have happened. exposing that or portions of it to folk comes with risk the team assesses with criteria unknown to us.

 

human eccentricities grate on a person.  so finding people who can work together (skipping all that prior) without wanting to rip their own eyes out when they encounter each others' code, is a thing. tolerance and screaming on the inside comes with xp, one hopefully supposes.

 

likewise, some as journeymen can think of an implementation as owned art, as opposed to team shared executable artifact.  whats silly to one, naive to another, or flawed to a third can be moment of an inspiration in the realizing of those following sentiment. 🤔

 

we have no idea where these volunteers are at, intra-team dynamics, and so.

 

its just not easy to do, were they even open to the hassle.

[BjorJlen]

   Having given this a bit of thought, while I find that the idea is a very good one and has some merit considering how old the game is, and the tools that were used to develop it (compared to the tools available to us today), I do not think that this will ever be implemented with things as they are now. First, there are the points @honoroit mentioned, which are very valid even today. Second, there is the fact that everyone who works as a Dev currently must sign a non-disclosure agreement, and those people are heavily monitored big time to ensure this is not violated. Many of those who worked on the Dev crew said this was so, so it's a given anyone who would and/or could help in this regards, would have to do the same.

   In which, more than likely, the people in question would just be asked to work "officially" with/for the Dev's, and that too could possibly be problematic to some. And third, there is the aspect that the Dev's "might" be still in talks with those who hold the actual IP of the game itself. As we have no idea on the status of this in any way, I am sure the Dev's tread very carefully in all things in regards to the game's development, including the tools used on it. So in closing, while your idea is a very good and kind one @Herotu, which could help the game itself in many ways, I do not see it happening at all unfortunately. I could obviously be wrong of course, but I sort of doubt it...

Edited July 10, 2023 by BjorJlen

[Scarlet Shocker]

I think you only have to look at the viability of the successor projects to see this could turn into a fool's errand.

 

It takes huge skilz and coordination, not to mention time, of professional coders to create stuff. Even in environments that welcome user generated content, such as Second Life, some of that is a) crap and b) often doesn't work as intended and c) requires a very steep learning curve to create.

 

I also think this game is amazing. For all its age, spaghetti code, and other perceived "failings" - it works, it gets new content provided by an unexpected source, and offers us repeated playability over literally decades.

 

If it ain't broke...

[Herotu]

I looked via Pigg Viewer Pro at the files. There are many of filetype .anim

 

The internet says that .anim are Maya files. 

Examination of the Maya website here...  https://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2020/ENU/?guid=GUID-87541258-2463-497A-A3D7-3DEA4C852644

... says this description for the file format.

 

Quote

Anim File Format
// A description of the anim file format.
// August 16, 1998
// 
// The .anim file format (version 1.0):
// // and # are both valid comment characters.
//
// All of the lines in the file that do not contain curly braces
// (’{’ or ’}’) should end with a ’;’ After the ’;’ character, start
// a new line.
//
// The keywords and data are whitespace delimited. 
//
// Version 1.1 changes:
// April 20, 1999
// new weighted keyword for animData
// new breakdown flag for keys
//
// The version of the file format. This is a required line.
//
animVersion string
// The Maya version. The string is the value of MGlobal::mayaVersion()
mayaVersion string
 
// The following two lines are optional. If they are not included,
// the clipboard is set to the range defined by the anim curves
// contained in the clipboard.
//
// These are used by anim curves that have time inputs.
//
startTime [float] // The starting frame for the clipboard.
endTime [float] // The ending frame for the clipboard.
// The following two lines are optional. If they are not included,
// the clipboard is set to the range defined by the anim curves
// contained in the clipboard.
//
// These are used by anim curves with unitless inputs.
//
startUnitless [float] // The starting value for for the clipboard.
endUnitless [float] // The ending value for the clipboard.
// The following three keywords are used to set the units for the file.
// Each anim curve may have its own units, but these are the default 
// units if the anim curve units are not given (see the animData section).
//
// If the units are not given, then the ui units are used.
//
timeUnit [game|film|pal|ntsc|show|palf|ntscf|hour|min|sec|millisec]
linearUnit [mm|cm|m|km|in|ft|yd|mi]
angularUnit [rad|deg|min|sec]
// All of the keywords described above can only be in the header section
// of the file. As soon as anim curve information is encountered, the 
// header section is completed and the body of the file is begun.
//
// The string is the name of the attribute the anim curve is connected to.
// The next three ints are the row, child, and attr values used by the
// clipboard. See the documentation for MAnimCurveClipboard for more
// information.
// 
// If the anim curve is not connected to any attributes, the string
// is not needed, but the following ints should be 0 0 0. 
anim [string] [int] [int] [int] 
// The second form of the anim line has three strings which list what
// the anim curve was connected to.
//
// The strings are: the full attribute name, the leaf attribute name,
// and the node name. The row, child, and attr ints are still required.
//
anim [string] [string] [string] [int] [int] [int]
// The third and final form of the anim line is used for clipboard
// place holder objects. These are used to skip node which do not
// contain any anim curve data, but are positioned in a hierarchy 
// with nodes that have attached anim curves.
//
// In this case, the string is the node name and the three ints are the 
// same as the other two formats.
//
anim [string] [int] [int] [int]
// The animData must follow a line with a valid anim statement.
//
animData {
 // The input type of the anim curve. Defaults to time.
 input [time|unitless] 
 // The output type of the anim curve. Defaults to linear.
 output [time|linear|angular|unitless]
 // Whether or not the anim curve has weighted tangents. Defaults to false.
 // This is available with animVersion >= 1.1
 weighted [1|0]
 // The unit of the anim curve input, if it is a time input.
 // The units default to the time units specified in the file header.
 inputUnit [game|film|pal|ntsc|show|palf|ntscf|hour|min|sec|millisec]
 // The unit of the anim curve output. The output unit should match
 // the output type of the curve. These default to the units specified
 // in the header.
 outputUnit [game|film|pal|ntsc|show|palf|ntscf|hour|min|sec|millisec]
 outputUnit [mm|cm|m|km|in|ft|yd|mi]
 outputUnit [rad|deg|min|sec]
 
 // The unit of the tangent angles, if there are any fixed tangents.
 // The units default to the angular units specified in the file header.
 tangentAngleUnit [rad|deg|min|sec]
 
 // The pre-infinity type. Defaults to constant.
 preInfinity [constant|linear|cycle|cycleRelative|oscillate]
 
 // The post-infinity type. Defaults to constant.
 postInfinity [constant|linear|cycle|cycleRelative|oscillate]
 // The start of the actual keyframe data. Each key is a row in the 
 // braced section.
 keys { 
 [float] [float] [in tan] [out tan] [tan locked] [weight locked]
 // animVersion 1.1 adds breakdown information
 [float] [float] [in tan] [out tan] [tan locked] [weight locked] [breakdown]
 .
 .
 .
// The first two values are the input and output values in the
 // units defined by the inputUnit and outputUnit keywords.
 // The in and out tangents should be valid tangent types.
 // These are followed by three int values for tangent locking,
 // weight locking and the breakdown flag. If they are 0, the values
 // are unlocked, or not a breakdown, otherwise they are locked.
 //
 // If either, or both, or the tangents are fixed, then additional 
 // information is needed: a tangent angle and weight.
 // These two values, per fixed tangent, are added at the end of 
 // the above line.
 //
 // For example:
 // 1.0 2.0 fixed linear 1 1 0 62.345 0.04;
 // 
 // In the above case, 62.345 is the tangent angle for the first 
 // tangent and the tangent weight is 0.04.
 //
 // An example with two fixed tangents:
 // 1.0 2.0 fixed fixed 1 1 0 62.345 0.04 45.3 0.023;
 }
}
The pattern of an anim line followed by animData should be used until all of the anim curves are described.
The following example is an animated joint chain consisting of 4 joints. The first three joints are animated and the fourth joint is not animated.
animVersion 1.1;
mayaVersion 2.0;
timeUnit ntsc;
linearUnit cm;
angularUnit deg;
startTime 1;
endTime 30;
anim rotate.rotateX rotateX joint1 0 1 0;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 30 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateY rotateY joint1 0 1 1;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 30 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateZ rotateZ joint1 0 1 2;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 10 -16.774359 spline spline 1 1 0;
 15 -1.6493069 spline spline 1 1 0;
 22 -3.064691 spline spline 1 1 0;
 30 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateX rotateX joint2 1 1 0;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 30 0 linear linear 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateZ rotateZ joint2 1 1 1;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 10 60.962438 spline spline 1 1 0;
 15 106.06094 spline spline 1 1 0;
 22 33.259896 spline spline 1 1 0;
 30 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateX rotateX joint3 2 1 0;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 10 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 15 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 22 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 30 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateY rotateY joint3 2 1 1;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 10 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 15 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 22 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 30 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim rotate.rotateZ rotateZ joint3 2 1 2;
animData {
 input time;
 output angular;
 weighted 0;
 preInfinity constant;
 postInfinity constant;
 keys {
 1 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 10 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 15 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 22 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 30 0 spline spline 1 1 0;
 }
}
anim joint4 3 0 0;

 

I wonder if the problem is that the format has changed over the years?

[mechahamham]

I believe that, before we can help, we have to understand many things:

 

- The HC team has indicated at several different times that they are uninterested and/or unable to participate in an open-source CoH project of any kind. For a volunteer project, this is severely limiting in almost all regards. We need to understand why they have chosen this path and what we can do to work around this limitation.

 

- The HC team is notoriously secretive as has been already mentioned in the thread. Basically everyone who contributes has to sign an NDA. We need to understand WHY this is required and if there's any way to realistically contribute without signing that NDA. One of the problems with NDAs is that they often forbid people from discussing the terms of the NDA itself.

 

- We need to know what the HC team's quality requirements are for contributions.

 

I've personally privately volunteered textures to the project. My attempt at contribution was met with silence, I assume because I didn't go through that NDA process. HC Staff, you can help yourself a LOT if you talk to the legal representation you've got and see how much you can disclose to us and how much you can accept from us. We genuinely want to help.

[honoroit]

why closed? guessing:

- private club control

- not beholden of vision

- people cant challenge work as element of contribution

- pipedream of a payoff or placement in a game dev team

 

they dont have to tell you anything, and can ban you for insolence, should they choose (or stealth delete posts here), with no accountability.

 - it is by one's good graces...

 

however, you can always apply for 'platinum standard': i made a thread about that in excelsior forums.

[Col. Kernel]

I'm happy to help.  If we can get some transparency that is.

 

This community being effectively closed source does not endear me to them.

[Herotu]

Well I wasn't aware of all this politicking and I'm not really that interested.

 

Perhaps we can contribute without engagement? Not ideal, but we can always just suggest stuff and hope something is useful?

 

If we consider the notion that the devs don't have access to Maya (it's very expensive) and are animating in another tool. That would explain why they're not able to produce .anim files (- it's one scenario, there are probably a great many more).

 

What alternative animation tool doesn't have the ability to export in .anim file format? 

 

[BjorJlen]

Yeah... Transparency is not the HC Dev's style I am afraid, and hasn't been since, like, forever. However for the sake of looking at both sides of this issue, many business follow the same practices, including internet one such as Google. And while CoH HC is not anywhere near the galaxy as far as business comparisons goes with other such big name companies, they are a business make no mistake about it. They may not make a lick of bread from us (no subscriptions to play, remember?), but they do follow a business model, follow the same practices as many of them, and as such, ARE a business. And I am sorry to say, that REAL businesses' do not listen often to the community they serve or deal with, especially when it comes to transparency. It's just not good business sense to do in the long, and sad, run is all...

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, mechahamham said:

- The HC team has indicated at several different times that they are uninterested and/or unable to participate in an open-source CoH project of any kind. For a volunteer project, this is severely limiting in almost all regards. We need to understand why they have chosen this path and what we can do to work around this limitation.

 

 

Re-read the OP. They're not talking about "open source COH." They're talking about the tools being used.

 

Or to put it another way, they're not trying to change Tesla's designs and software and send it out into the world. They're asking if we can find or make some up-to-date, suitable wrenches, drivers and the like so it's easier for the dev team to work on the car.

[Snarky]

I would help.  But I have been putting off yard work.

[Glacier Peak]

8 hours ago, Herotu said:

Cobolt Arachne stated here that the devs' tools are holding back development. Surely we have people who have the know-how regarding this matter? I will jump to ill-informed conclusions below.

  

Terms:

In the below Ill-informed conclusions, the term

old format 

means the format of file which the game would use.

 

Ill-informed conclusions:

I would imagine that the problem could be alleviated if modern tools had either

• the capability to export animations in old format or
• if an exported modern file could be converted to the old format.

 

Would this involve the writing of libraries and suchlike? If we know what's required, some of us have such knowledge or contacts who do.

I invite you all to offer opinion and assistance if you can below.

 

 

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would help.  But I have been putting off yard work.

 

What's one more century?

[RCU7115]

I believe this is the tool they need for the code.

[TheZag]

My tour through the googles said that .anim files are viewable and editable through unity or can be ran through a converter and then edited with blender.  Then there are tools to record the blender animation back into .anim files to run in unity.  I can only assume the resulting files arent compatible with City of Heroes or that the Devs arent allowed to use that process.  Its very possible that 2023 .anim files dont follow the same format as 2004 ones but im not a file extension historian.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by TheZag

[Sanguinesun]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:35 AM, Herotu said:

Cobolt Arachne stated here that the devs' tools are holding back development. Surely we have people who have the know-how regarding this matter? I will jump to ill-informed conclusions below.

  

Terms:

In the below Ill-informed conclusions, the term

old format 

means the format of file which the game would use.

 

Ill-informed conclusions:

I would imagine that the problem could be alleviated if modern tools had either

• the capability to export animations in old format or
• if an exported modern file could be converted to the old format.

 

Would this involve the writing of libraries and suchlike? If we know what's required, some of us have such knowledge or contacts who do.

I invite you all to offer opinion and assistance if you can below.

 

 

 

 Cobolt's statements are being interpreted by you as a call for help.  That's not the take away I got from their statements. My take away was their making those statements as reasoning for why they cannot accommodate the wants of players per the context of that linked discussion.

 

Were the team making a call for help, as you see it, they would have made a very clear thread/post for those specifics.  They have not. 

 

HC's pace of development along with the manner by which they develop is, for lack of a better way of saying it, working as -intended-.   If they wanted it to be different, they would do so.   Take a moment to think about the scope of what that means really.

 

Making a call, so to speak, on their behalf is probably not something as attenable as you may wish to think it is.

[Herotu]

  

11 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

 Cobolt's statements are being interpreted by you as a call for help.  That's not the take away I got from their statements. My take away was their making those statements as reasoning for why they cannot accommodate the wants of players per the context of that linked discussion.

 

Were the team making a call for help, as you see it, they would have made a very clear thread/post for those specifics.  They have not. 

 

HC's pace of development along with the manner by which they develop is, for lack of a better way of saying it, working as -intended-.   If they wanted it to be different, they would do so.   Take a moment to think about the scope of what that means really.

 

Making a call, so to speak, on their behalf is probably not something as attenable as you may wish to think it is.

Yeah... No. I saw no "call" whatsoever. That's your interpretation of my interpretation of their statement. As the interpreter of their statement I can categorically state that your interpretation of my interpretation isn't what I intended. 

As you can see, I've merely quoted a statement from Cobolt which suggests that until they have better tools, development is bottlenecked. You can call that a "call" or not. It's not something I'm interested in. I just want to solve the tools issue and remove the bottleneck. Let's stay focused here, people.

 

There's far too much nonsense about whether or not they're asking for help. I don't care whether they're asking for help. I want to provide it regardless. Let's remove this bottleneck!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Herotu

[lemming]

I think if there was a tool that they could use to help with tasks without strings, that would be accepted.

 

How to actually do that is beyond my skillsets. 😉

[High_Beam]

37 minutes ago, lemming said:

skillsets. 😉

Totally read that as skillet.  I was like a frying pan?  Why?

[BjorJlen]

Because... that's how everything is fixed these days it seems. Just hit it with a frying pan, and be done with it. lol

[Michiyo]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:53 AM, Herotu said:

I looked via Pigg Viewer Pro at the files. There are many of filetype .anim

 

The internet says that .anim are Maya files. 

Examination of the Maya website here...  https://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2020/ENU/?guid=GUID-87541258-2463-497A-A3D7-3DEA4C852644

... says this description for the file format.

 

 

I wonder if the problem is that the format has changed over the years?

The game's .anim files are *not* Maya .anim files.

[Without_Pause]

Is there a modern 3D tool which is capable of doing the task? Could not the Homecoming team add the cost of said tool into monthly funding?

[Sanguinesun]

11 hours ago, Herotu said:

  

Yeah... No. I saw no "call" whatsoever. That's your interpretation of my interpretation of their statement. As the interpreter of their statement I can categorically state that your interpretation of my interpretation isn't what I intended. 

As you can see, I've merely quoted a statement from Cobolt which suggests that until they have better tools, development is bottlenecked. You can call that a "call" or not. It's not something I'm interested in. I just want to solve the tools issue and remove the bottleneck. Let's stay focused here, people.

 

There's far too much nonsense about whether or not they're asking for help. I don't care whether they're asking for help. I want to provide it regardless. Let's remove this bottleneck!

 

 

Never stated that they are calling for help. I'm saying -they- werent.  -Your- initial post was calling to help them and as you've reinforced by the statements above. 

 

My point to you was, that they neither need nor want it in these regards as -if- they did, they would themselves have made a thread/post (beyond what they already have in other capacities) for such needs.  Thus, the current situation for them is as they wish it and working as intended.   

 

Taken another way, you're also indirectly implying that the HC team isnt capable of devising their own methods of doing the work at the pace and/or means that they wish to; and that your "I invite you all to offer opinion and assistance if you can below." call for help is, by your belief, a necessity.   

 

Title of the thread is even "The Devs Need Our Help".   They never stated that as I said.  You did but imply that they need said help.

 

It just all seems a bit counter intuitive at best and potentially patronizing of the team at worst, especially due to your insistence to call for such assistance when you've just admitted it wasn't asked for.

 

Again, the current status/pace of development makes for rather compelling evidence that they are working as intended per their team's wants.   If their needs change, I'm sure they'll be the first to let the community know...

Edited July 12, 2023 by Sanguinesun