Nice costume! (too bad it won't be around long)

[honoroit]

4 minutes ago, Player2 said:

 

By the way, before you try to make excuses for this one, the second item under the Content Guidelines section of the CoC states:

 

"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity"

 

Identifying a character as lesbian and indicating they are useless is BLATANTLY abusive toward gender identity.  And the GM who ignored this is JUST as offensive for letting it slide.

 

among a community of really nice people - we have some really awful members.

 

of course the name 'usless <classification of identity>' is offensive.

 

it infers that there is purpose of womanhood, how? thats unclear.

 

but its not complex to ask and answer? does this likely intend harm to the viewer of this text?

 

i say, yes.

[Neiska]

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

  

 

This promotes an "us against them" mentality,

 

But that's precisely what it is. Both you and I are guests here. Either we behave ourselves, or we will be shown the door. There is no debate. No compromise. This is their house, so it's their rules. Don't like it? Too bad.

 

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

 

That example is not clever and is a clear violation of the rule.  "No dragons" says no dragons, which means all dragons are excluded regardless of color.  Your example falls flat and wins you zero points.

 

Also, if a rule is vague then it isn't a rule at all... it's a damned suggestion that lets whoever's in charge at the minute decide what they want the rule to be.  That isn't fair to anyone.

 

 

If you took time to apply my context to the argument, you might see how it does. An easier example for you to apply then, in context of a costume, might be making a superhero costume, but changing the colors. Or transposing a few letters of the name. Lets say someone wanted to make an omage to Wolverine, and instead uses the name, VVolverine, and instead of yellow and black, he is red and blue. Now, you or I might be okay with that. A staff member, may or may not. The point is, it isn't up for you nor I to decide. And once decided, you don't get to ask another staff member to try and get the answer that you want. IE - "Mommy said no, so I will just ask daddy."

 

Your counterpoint failed the intellectual maturity bar, and wins you zero points.

 

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Wrong.  As I said, if it's too vague then it's not a rule and lets the people in charge in the moment make a decision.  That means the rules change whenever a new GM arrives... and a constantly shifting set of "rules" is unfair to the players.  Make rules, stick to them, ALLOW people to appeal decisions, and if the rules are too strict or too loose, then update the rules as needed... but make sure to post that they've been updated and how in a fairly obvious way, such as the part where we have to agree to the CoC upon logging in to the game... and maybe even before when we pull up the launcher.  Because right now, I see no effort to "quietly make adjustments where necessary."  It's just rules intentionally vague because it benefits the GM side of things.  Well, if that's the way it is, I think the GMs are coddled and deserve to have everyone push every envelop there is.  Overwork them and wreck the system so that we can get some real change.

 

To people with fair intents, the rules ARE fair. The rules are "Omages or funny jokes are fine. but don't copy." To any honest and well meaning player, that is quite fair. Only those with, shall we say, poor intents of skirting the rule would such a rule be "unfair" which is whom that particular rule is directed to. So, I would say the rule is working.

 

As far as the "lets overwork the GMs so the sytem fails!" then I believe you are the specific kind of person who the majority of rules exist in the first place. The majority of mature adults know how to behave and conduct themselves. But the notion of "lets crash the system" in a "home" you are free and welcome to be in, without any manner of pay, provided for entirely on volunteer time, reeks of entitlement and narcissism.

 

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Too hard for them?  Well then, don't volunteer.  Or get more volunteers.  Don't want to write rules more clearly?  Then just admit you don't want rules, you want to oppress the players selectively... and even if that isn't what you want, it is what you get.  When some people get away with things because vague rules don't apply to them even in obvious situations where they should while the same vague rules target other people for lesser reasons, then it's selective oppression... possibly random or who knows, maybe favoritism.  Without transparency there is no way of knowing, and since the GMs get the favor of inflicting the vague rules how they see fit, why should we trust that they have any intent of being fair?

 

A better counterpoint - Can't follow common sense and behave yourself? Need to be hand-holded and an overbearing presence to ensure your lack of integrity is always in check? Then don't play here. You say "it isn't fair!" "What" isn't fair? That you don't get to copy IP and threaten the entire community and game with your selfish desires? I would say that isn't fair to the rest of the entire community that attitude is even permitted. To anyone with clear intent to just enjoy the game, the rules are pretty transparent already. Only those who are going "I wonder if I can get away with..." are the rules not clear-cut enough. And odds are, if you have to question it, then you are likely in the wrong.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Context matters?  Bull.  Character name reported:  Useless Lesbian, and I find that pretty damned offensive.  GM response same day, so it's not like anyone was too overworked to notice it.  That character is still running around with that name.  Since we're obviously in an us vs. them situation with the GMs, should I name the GM that chose to ignore this?  I mean, I outed myself for reporting it now, maybe the GM will come along and explain why that name is okay.  And if so, I'd love to know why my merc/FF mastermind named F-Bomb because of the double entendre and use of Force Bomb power was taken away along with a warning not to use it again or more severe action will be taken against my account.  Is the profanity rule so strict that we can't even refer to words that refer to profanity?  For the record, the only "f-bombs" I dropped in chat was the word fudge... for humor, because subverting expectations.  So I'd love to call bullcrap on all of your explanations, but I'm worried that "bullcrap" might be mistaken for another expletive and get me in trouble for breaking profanity rules... despite people frequently using the vulgar term for excrement.

 

I have no inner knowledge of your specific case, but "Useless" and "Lesbian" are neither wrong or profanity, while the F bomb most certainly is. Now, neither you nor I are the ones to decide if "Useless Lesbian" is an acceptable name. I believe most people would say, that it is not. But here is a shocker - if someone on the staff says it's okay, then it is. Don't like it? Too bad. Not your call. And for the record, yes, your term for bull excrement is also profanity.

 

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

I have no sympathy for the GMs at this point, and you've not made it any better but only made me resent them more.  Good job.

 

Life is far too short for me to even pretend to care about your personal feelings on the matter. But perhaps your time would be better spent in wondering if you resent playing here so much why are you playing then? Personally, I think your entire complaint arises from a personal interaction that you are still salty about. So salty and selfish that you would rather see it all come crashing down just because you didn't get your way on something, most likely a minor matter.

 

And to that, I can only respond with "K."

 

And the way this conversation is going, I expect this topic to be closed.

[Neiska]

31 minutes ago, Player2 said:

 

By the way, before you try to make excuses for this one, the second item under the Content Guidelines section of the CoC states:

 

"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity"

 

Identifying a character as lesbian and indicating they are useless is BLATANTLY abusive toward gender identity.  And the GM who ignored this is JUST as offensive for letting it slide.

 

The funny thing? To me your entire attitude of selfishness and how to "game the system" is just as offensive to me as that name, if not more so. What kind of person wants to purposefully make a community fail, just because they didn't get their way?

 

We will not be communicating again. (See, this what mature adults do.) 

[Player2]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

 

The funny thing? To me your entire attitude of selfishness and how to "game the system" is just as offensive to me as that name, if not more so. What kind of person wants to purposefully make a community fail, just because they didn't get their way?

 

We will not be communicating again. (See, this what mature adults do.) 

Yes, it's so selfish to want to be treated fairly.

And the fact that you find that more offensive than that name that still stands says a whole lot about your attitude being what's wrong here.

 

Also, "We will not be communicating again" does not make you mature.  You're basically saying "I don't like what you have to say so I never want to hear from you again.  That is the snooty equivalent of "I'm taking my ball and going home," which is a pretty childish act.  But you do you.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Player2

[lemming]

"Useless L" should be genericed IMO, but I'm also not a GM.

 

There is a thread where one of the GMs did discuss the reason they don't have a hard rule, but I think the generic hammer is often done in sweeps when it gets pointed out.   And context matters.  There's a definite line, but it's more a range than a binary.

 

And sometimes it might take a couple reports to take action. Also, there is the chance the person changed the name back.   

I'm not sure how robust the reporting system is for HC or if they have a routine for checking to see if someone just changed the name back (despite the warning that should not be done)

[GM Crumpet]

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

  

 

This promotes an "us against them" mentality, and the larger side is put in a decidedly disadvantaged position of having no recourse when different GMs enforce these vague rules differently.  This will in turn create a tension between some of the player base, especially when someone with a name that doesn't technically break any rules but might be considered to push the envelope is punished while someone goes around with one that might be blatantly rulebreaking at level 50+ and no one says anything.  I have reported some offensive names and I get the form letter response indicating that I won't be informed of any decisions made for blah blah blah reasons... but I don't need to be informed if I stick the offensive name on a friend list and see that my ticket was closed and no action was taken because that person still runs around with the reported name.

 

  

 

That example is not clever and is a clear violation of the rule.  "No dragons" says no dragons, which means all dragons are excluded regardless of color.  Your example falls flat and wins you zero points.

 

Also, if a rule is vague then it isn't a rule at all... it's a damned suggestion that lets whoever's in charge at the minute decide what they want the rule to be.  That isn't fair to anyone.

 

 

  

 

Wrong.  As I said, if it's too vague then it's not a rule and lets the people in charge in the moment make a decision.  That means the rules change whenever a new GM arrives... and a constantly shifting set of "rules" is unfair to the players.  Make rules, stick to them, ALLOW people to appeal decisions, and if the rules are too strict or too loose, then update the rules as needed... but make sure to post that they've been updated and how in a fairly obvious way, such as the part where we have to agree to the CoC upon logging in to the game... and maybe even before when we pull up the launcher.  Because right now, I see no effort to "quietly make adjustments where necessary."  It's just rules intentionally vague because it benefits the GM side of things.  Well, if that's the way it is, I think the GMs are coddled and deserve to have everyone push every envelop there is.  Overwork them and wreck the system so that we can get some real change.

 

 

  

 

So, again... leaves it open to individual discretion, which means the intentionally vague rules get selectively enforced... a situation that isn't fair to the players, and that makes me have zero sympathy for the GMs.  Too hard for them?  Well then, don't volunteer.  Or get more volunteers.  Don't want to write rules more clearly?  Then just admit you don't want rules, you want to oppress the players selectively... and even if that isn't what you want, it is what you get.  When some people get away with things because vague rules don't apply to them even in obvious situations where they should while the same vague rules target other people for lesser reasons, then it's selective oppression... possibly random or who knows, maybe favoritism.  Without transparency there is no way of knowing, and since the GMs get the favor of inflicting the vague rules how they see fit, why should we trust that they have any intent of being fair?

 

 

  

 

Context matters?  Bull.  Character name reported:  Useless Lesbian, and I find that pretty damned offensive.  GM response same day, so it's not like anyone was too overworked to notice it.  That character is still running around with that name.  Since we're obviously in an us vs. them situation with the GMs, should I name the GM that chose to ignore this?  I mean, I outed myself for reporting it now, maybe the GM will come along and explain why that name is okay.  And if so, I'd love to know why my merc/FF mastermind named F-Bomb because of the double entendre and use of Force Bomb power was taken away along with a warning not to use it again or more severe action will be taken against my account.  Is the profanity rule so strict that we can't even refer to words that refer to profanity?  For the record, the only "f-bombs" I dropped in chat was the word fudge... for humor, because subverting expectations.  So I'd love to call bullcrap on all of your explanations, but I'm worried that "bullcrap" might be mistaken for another expletive and get me in trouble for breaking profanity rules... despite people frequently using the vulgar term for excrement.

 

 

  

 

No, the point is that if the rules are selectively enforced then the people who enforce them are abusing the players by playing favorites to some in turning a blind eye sometimes while cracking down too hard at others, and with no real means of recourse for the players or any effort at transparency with the how the GM decision-making process goes.  It literally comes down to how a GM feels about the vaguely written rules in a given situation... which is really taking advantage of the players.  So again, if people are breaking the rules, then now I say good.  If you see there aren't enough GMs to handle it all, then I say too bad.  If you're say they need our sympathy because they're outnumbered, then I say that explanation is wrong to be based on the premise of us vs them.  If you tell me that more specific rules would be taken advantage of, then I ask how is it not easier to take advantage of intentionally more vague rules?  I mean, aside from letting a handful of people dictate what is sometimes offensive but other times not.

 

I have no sympathy for the GMs at this point, and you've not made it any better but only made me resent them more.  Good job.

 

 

Just to clarify, do you thing GM's don't talk to each other? We have a robust and very consensus based system. We also have an appeal system where someone can plead their case if they feel the were generic'd in error and we pass it to the leads who also discuss it amongst themselves before making the final decision. There is no lone ranger scenario where a character is safe or nuked based on personal preferences. If it's obvious then yes we don't need to discuss it. Green Arrow or Wolverine or Batman will be gone once they come to our attention. Others we might look at and take it for a consensus.

As for reporting someone and then seeing we haven't done something, then that's our decision. We have a sympathetic view of certain parts of life like LGBTQ+, or political affiliation. We won't allow specific real life individuals, but we aren't going to go for someone because they are gay this or lesbian that. We aren't going to allow Democrat sensibilities and ban Republican ones. We aren't going to hit a proud Texan or an American patriot. As long as there isn't anything abusive or rude we are more than happy to let then go. 

[GM Crumpet]

2 hours ago, lemming said:

"Useless L" should be genericed IMO, but I'm also not a GM.

 

There is a thread where one of the GMs did discuss the reason they don't have a hard rule, but I think the generic hammer is often done in sweeps when it gets pointed out.   And context matters.  There's a definite line, but it's more a range than a binary.

 

And sometimes it might take a couple reports to take action. Also, there is the chance the person changed the name back.   

I'm not sure how robust the reporting system is for HC or if they have a routine for checking to see if someone just changed the name back (despite the warning that should not be done)

I regularly check to see if names or costumes have been changed back. I'm also the one who does the majority of the generics. Other GM's also do them, but I do most of them so if I make a mistake I'll hold my hands up and apologise. 

I'm also not overworked, so if you see something that needs to be brought to my attention feel free.

[Player2]

2 minutes ago, GM Crumpet said:

I regularly check to see if names or costumes have been changed back. I'm also the one who does the majority of the generics. Other GM's also do them, but I do most of them so if I make a mistake I'll hold my hands up and apologise. 

I'm also not overworked, so if you see something that needs to be brought to my attention feel free.

So you think "Useless Lesbian" is fine... but "F-Bomb" isn't?

 

Let's talk about that.  My daughter is a lesbian.  I find the reference offensive.  I asked her about it.  Her take is that she sometimes feels useless, but that's not something that should be celebrated and thinks it's in poor taste.  Explain to me how the system goes where you appeal to some people's offensive sensibilities but not others.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Player2

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

So you think "Useless Lesbian" is fine... but "F-Bomb" isn't?

 

Let's talk about that.  My daughter is a lesbian.  I find the reference offensive.  I asked her about it.  Her take is that she sometimes feels useless, but that's not something that should be celebrated and thinks it's in poor taste.  Explain to me how the system goes where you appeal to some people's offensive sensibilities but not others.

There is a street in Santa Barbara Ca called Indio Muerto street.  (Dead Indian street) Long story short, a native american died there.  

 

The local politicians many years later were making a real case and giant cause of changing the name to stop offending anyone.

 

Then the local Native population were like "We are not offended.  Thanks."

 

Still.....  If anyone was offended... that would be different.  Calling someone Useless (derogatory) is different than calling someone dead (a natural state) 

 

I am unsure and cannot speak for the Native population, but useless indian street might have had a different effect on their sensibilities....

[Oubliette_Red]

The only think I've been able to come up with regarding "Useless Lesbian" is if the character history was something along the lines of "The first female born on an all male planet and she finds she's not attracted to men."  Yeah, it's a stretch but I'm on the 'I see it as offensive' side of the discussion.

 

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

 

[GM Crumpet]

While I understand the discussion can we move away from singling out a particular player? It's not fair as they are not part of the conversation, and if they were I imagine there would be a lot of personal comments that we wouldn't allow.

 

Discuss in general, but any further singling out of particular players will make me lock this thread.

[TheZag]

Offended and offensive are different.  My sister was offended when my brother offered her career advice but that doesnt make it offensive and mean nobody can offer anyone career advice ever again.  It may mean some names,  while generally considered to be in poor taste,  may be deemed ok while others that are meant as a punny joke get generic'd.

 

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Offended and offensive are different.  My sister was offended when my brother offered her career advice but that doesnt make it offensive and mean nobody can offer anyone career advice ever again.  It may mean some names,  while generally considered to be in poor taste,  may be deemed ok while others that are meant as a punny joke get generic'd.

 

[Sykar]

13 hours ago, Player2 said:

 

By the way, before you try to make excuses for this one, the second item under the Content Guidelines section of the CoC states:

 

"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity"

 

Identifying a character as lesbian and indicating they are useless is BLATANTLY abusive toward gender identity.  And the GM who ignored this is JUST as offensive for letting it slide.

Lesbian is not a gender identity it is a sexuality. As to abusive, that is debatable. The player might very well have meant it ironic, or it can also really just be that particular character with no further intention than that. You have not presented clear evidence that the person went out and made a statement about all lesbians and in fact you cannot. You only have shown that you personally seem to take great offense to the name and seem to expect that everyone else has to agree with you.

I would rather say that someone making a character named after a goddess of womanhood and give her water blast power set turned red to simulate menstrual blood is far more offensive or at the very least exceedingly childish.

But what I find truly offensive are players who would ruin other players experience by crashing servers because they throw a tamper tantrum.

 

  

8 hours ago, Player2 said:

So you think "Useless Lesbian" is fine... but "F-Bomb" isn't?

 

Let's talk about that.  My daughter is a lesbian.  I find the reference offensive.  I asked her about it.  Her take is that she sometimes feels useless, but that's not something that should be celebrated and thinks it's in poor taste.  Explain to me how the system goes where you appeal to some people's offensive sensibilities but not others.

The F-slur is clearly a slur and understood as such by basically everyone even in non-English speaking countries. The character you seem to have a problem with is not such a clear case as I have outlined earlier and in fact not in the slightest. Poor taste maybe, but a slur? That is a stretch unless you can show via chat screenshots that the player is clearly bigoted towards lesbians.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sykar

[Raikao]

9 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

Just to clarify, do you thing GM's don't talk to each other? We have a robust and very consensus based system. We also have an appeal system where someone can plead their case if they feel the were generic'd in error and we pass it to the leads who also discuss it amongst themselves before making the final decision. There is no lone ranger scenario where a character is safe or nuked based on personal preferences. If it's obvious then yes we don't need to discuss it. Green Arrow or Wolverine or Batman will be gone once they come to our attention. Others we might look at and take it for a consensus.

As for reporting someone and then seeing we haven't done something, then that's our decision. We have a sympathetic view of certain parts of life like LGBTQ+, or political affiliation. We won't allow specific real life individuals, but we aren't going to go for someone because they are gay this or lesbian that. We aren't going to allow Democrat sensibilities and ban Republican ones. We aren't going to hit a proud Texan or an American patriot. As long as there isn't anything abusive or rude we are more than happy to let then go. 

 

I'm extremely happy to hear this. I'm from Europe and I'm fucking tired of America's Culture War and politics getting into everything. I have my own opinions, political and otherwise. I sure am glad that my views wont get preferential treatment either.

 

Maybe it's a generational thing I don't know, but I'm used to a) having a thicker skin and b) just putting people on ignore if I hate their dumb joke name for a character that much.

 

I'm so tired of this lack of personal responsibility. Always asking the powers that be to step in and police even the most personal interactions or offenses.

 

I don't envy the task and wish you...luck? Mhhh I think wisdom is more appropiate. 

[GM Crumpet]

I'm the same. I'm a boomer so getting offended at something wasn't a thing. If we didn't like it we just didn't talk to the person any more. 

[kito]

19 hours ago, Player2 said:

 

By the way, before you try to make excuses for this one, the second item under the Content Guidelines section of the CoC states:

 

"Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity"

 

Identifying a character as lesbian and indicating they are useless is BLATANTLY abusive toward gender identity.  And the GM who ignored this is JUST as offensive for letting it slide.

 

 

Lesbian is sexual orientation not gender identity. But I do agree not very happy with the name as well, if I met them in game I would block them and move on.

[Panache]

6 hours ago, Sykar said:

Lesbian is not a gender identity it is a sexuality. As to abusive, that is debatable. The player might very well have meant it ironic, or it can also really just be that particular character with no further intention than that. You have not presented clear evidence that the person went out and made a statement about all lesbians and in fact you cannot. You only have shown that you personally seem to take great offense to the name and seem to expect that everyone else has to agree with you.

I would rather say that someone making a character named after a goddess of womanhood and give her water blast power set turned red to simulate menstrual blood is far more offensive or at the very least exceedingly childish.

But what I find truly offensive are players who would ruin other players experience by crashing servers because they throw a tamper tantrum.

 

  

The F-slur is clearly a slur and understood as such by basically everyone even in non-English speaking countries. The character you seem to have a problem with is not such a clear case as I have outlined earlier and in fact not in the slightest. Poor taste maybe, but a slur? That is a stretch unless you can show via chat screenshots that the player is clearly bigoted towards lesbians.

“F-bomb” isn’t a slur, it’s a sanitized reference to a swear word, curse word, whatever you want to call that kind of phrase, but it absolutely isn’t a slur.

[Panache]

4 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

I'm the same. I'm a boomer so getting offended at something wasn't a thing. If we didn't like it we just didn't talk to the person any more. 

Legitimate question here: do the Homecoming GMs feel that they have a responsibility to moderate the community, or no? Because “well I have a thick skin, so other people should too” is an interesting approach if so. If not, well, that’s a bigger conversation.

[Snarky]

9 minutes ago, Panache said:

“F-bomb” isn’t a slur, it’s a sanitized reference to a swear word, curse word, whatever you want to call that kind of phrase, but it absolutely isn’t a slur.

This is entirely situational.  If a really drunk person said F-bomb they might be using a slur.

[Panache]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This is entirely situational.  If a really drunk person said F-bomb they might be using a slur.

 
….gosh darn it, Snarky. 

[Bionic_Flea]

21 minutes ago, Panache said:

Legitimate question here: do the Homecoming GMs feel that they have a responsibility to moderate the community, or no? Because “well I have a thick skin, so other people should too” is an interesting approach if so. If not, well, that’s a bigger conversation.

 

Why can't it be both?  The GMs should moderate the community from certain players' extreme conduct AND certain players should moderate their sensibilities to not be so offended to everything. 

 

I'm not commenting on anyone in this thread, just folks in general.  Some people are too offensive and some people are too easily offended.

[Raikao]

10 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Why can't it be both?  The GMs should moderate the community from certain players' extreme conduct AND certain players should moderate their sensibilities to not be so offended to everything. 

 

I'm not commenting on anyone in this thread, just folks in general.  Some people are too offensive and some people are too easily offended.

 

Well put. Can't we just meet in the middle and call each other assholes (but from a place of love)?

[High_Beam]

49 minutes ago, Panache said:

“F-bomb” isn’t a slur, it’s a sanitized reference to a swear word, curse word, whatever you want to call that kind of phrase, but it absolutely isn’t a slur.

I am a retired Navy Chief Petty Officer, the F word is a noun, verb, adverb, preposition, proper name, flavor of food, shade of a color and in general the best, multi-purpose word ever invented by humanity.  Use it.  Use it often and feel joy in your life.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Panache said:

Legitimate question here: do the Homecoming GMs feel that they have a responsibility to moderate the community, or no? Because “well I have a thick skin, so other people should too” is an interesting approach if so. If not, well, that’s a bigger conversation.

That’s not what was said