Make Cold Domination Shields work with Power Boost

[Raikao]

So I just learned that PowerBoost works on the shields from Force Field, but not on the shields from Cold Domination. The reason seems to be the resistances on the cold domination shields, which block PB from working on them.

But the FF shields have toxic resistance. And still work. I've been told they're coded differently.

 

So this is completely nonsensical. Cold Domination is already weaker in terms of giving Defense. So I would have paired it with Thugs or Beasts (slightly more defense from the T2 pets) and really thought I had something going there.

 

Now I don't know the specifics of why. I can only assume some spaghetti code that never got changed. Please consider fixing Cold Manipulation shields to work with PowerBoost.

 

And again, to be clear: This would still make cold shields only AS STRONG as ForceField shields in terms of Defense and only Defense. Cold shields give no fire or cold def and give fire/cold res instead. Both are still distinct in that way and this would only make Cold work similar to ForceFields when it comes to using PowerBoost. Which is 100% how it should be.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

if this is true then i completely agree

but it also maybe, perhaps, possibly, perchance this sounds like a potential bug?

If so great catch 🙂

[Hedgefund]

Prior discussion.  One of them at least, this comes up every now and then.

 

 

[RobotLove]

If they changed it, we would have to lose the ability to slot the cold shields for resistance, and personally I value having that flexibility.

 

Bopper has a breakdown on this issue from awhile back here.

 

[TheZag]

Force field shields have some resistance but it isnt enhanceable.  If the ignore outside enhancements attribute were removed from cold shields,  any source of damage buffs including red inspirations and fulcrum shift,  would increase the resistance of cold shields.  This is due to the way that damage and damage resistance are basically the same thing as far as the combat system is concerned.  The damage resistance could be made unenhanceable,  but then anyone that uses resistance sets in the power would lose those effects.  Recoding everything damage and damage resistance related might be possible but would need to cover hundreds of powers and enhancements.  I could never say with 100% certainty,  but i dont think the devs will spend months recoding the entire combat and enhancement system just so ice shields can work with power boost.

 

I admit that it looks strange on the surface when the shields dont work with power boost,  but after a deeper dig it makes total sense.

 

[WindDemon21]

2 hours ago, Raikao said:

So I just learned that PowerBoost works on the shields from Force Field, but not on the shields from Cold Domination. The reason seems to be the resistances on the cold domination shields, which block PB from working on them.

But the FF shields have toxic resistance. And still work. I've been told they're coded differently.

 

So this is completely nonsensical. Cold Domination is already weaker in terms of giving Defense. So I would have paired it with Thugs or Beasts (slightly more defense from the T2 pets) and really thought I had something going there.

 

Now I don't know the specifics of why. I can only assume some spaghetti code that never got changed. Please consider fixing Cold Manipulation shields to work with PowerBoost.

 

And again, to be clear: This would still make cold shields only AS STRONG as ForceField shields in terms of Defense and only Defense. Cold shields give no fire or cold def and give fire/cold res instead. Both are still distinct in that way and this would only make Cold work similar to ForceFields when it comes to using PowerBoost. Which is 100% how it should be.

They also need to make powerboost work with regen and recovery powers. It SHOULD work with resist powers, but i know that is a hard "not possible" with current spaghetti code stupidly.

 

On that note, it *could* be possible to work around that by instead of boosting the value itself, if it would somehow simply APPLY a second buff based on the value of the initial buff on top of it. I could still see this being a coding, or buggy nightmare, but at least it's an avenue to look into to get it to work with resist powers too.

 

But definitely should be fixed to work for regen/recovery powers.

Edited August 15, 2023 by WindDemon21

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

if this is true then i completely agree

but it also maybe, perhaps, possibly, perchance this sounds like a potential bug?

If so great catch 🙂

No it's not a bug, it's a known issue with the way the coding is for resist powers and damage. They tried to fix this at *some* point in the past and IIRC it caused completely bogus issues.

[arcane]

Buffing Cold Domination as it is today would be a stupid idea.

[Luminara]

[Raikao]

11 hours ago, arcane said:

Buffing Cold Domination as it is today would be a stupid idea.

 

I'm amazed that this would still show up. "hurr durr it's op but I wont tell you why", when I literally pointed out that with PowerBoost working Cold Domination would still give LESS defense than just using force fields. BUt I guess we can't even have side grade choices or fix obvious bugs or problems with the engine. Just ever.

 

You didn't even say why you've come to this "conclusion". It's just sad.

[Raikao]

12 hours ago, TheZag said:

Force field shields have some resistance but it isnt enhanceable.  If the ignore outside enhancements attribute were removed from cold shields,  any source of damage buffs including red inspirations and fulcrum shift,  would increase the resistance of cold shields.  This is due to the way that damage and damage resistance are basically the same thing as far as the combat system is concerned.  The damage resistance could be made unenhanceable,  but then anyone that uses resistance sets in the power would lose those effects.  Recoding everything damage and damage resistance related might be possible but would need to cover hundreds of powers and enhancements.  I could never say with 100% certainty,  but i dont think the devs will spend months recoding the entire combat and enhancement system just so ice shields can work with power boost.

 

I admit that it looks strange on the surface when the shields dont work with power boost,  but after a deeper dig it makes total sense.

 

 

I firmly believe that if a change would be a net positive for the game it should be implemented. I'm not happy with just shelving my /cold build forever. I can see that this change would be quite involved, but it's also been like this  4+ years.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

I'm amazed that this would still show up. "hurr durr it's op but I wont tell you why", when I literally pointed out that with PowerBoost working Cold Domination would still give LESS defense than just using force fields. BUt I guess we can't even have side grade choices or fix obvious bugs or problems with the engine. Just ever.

 

You didn't even say why you've come to this "conclusion". It's just sad.

My best guess for @arcane's conclusion? Would be the following:

 

13 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

Prior discussion.  One of them at least, this comes up every now and then.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, RobotLove said:

If they changed it, we would have to lose the ability to slot the cold shields for resistance, and personally I value having that flexibility.

 

Bopper has a breakdown on this issue from awhile back here.

 

 

12 hours ago, TheZag said:

Force field shields have some resistance but it isnt enhanceable.  If the ignore outside enhancements attribute were removed from cold shields,  any source of damage buffs including red inspirations and fulcrum shift,  would increase the resistance of cold shields.  This is due to the way that damage and damage resistance are basically the same thing as far as the combat system is concerned.  The damage resistance could be made unenhanceable,  but then anyone that uses resistance sets in the power would lose those effects.  Recoding everything damage and damage resistance related might be possible but would need to cover hundreds of powers and enhancements.  I could never say with 100% certainty,  but i dont think the devs will spend months recoding the entire combat and enhancement system just so ice shields can work with power boost.

 

I admit that it looks strange on the surface when the shields dont work with power boost,  but after a deeper dig it makes total sense.

 

 

12 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

No it's not a bug, it's a known issue with the way the coding is for resist powers and damage. They tried to fix this at *some* point in the past and IIRC it caused completely bogus issues.

 

Just some random posts giving reasons they oppose the OP. And even if none of those are @arcane's reasons, no one is required to give their reason for supporting or opposing a suggestion.

[Raikao]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My best guess for @arcane's conclusion? Would be the following:

 

 

 

 

 

Just some random posts giving reasons they oppose the OP. And even if none of those are @arcane's reasons, no one is required to give their reason for supporting or opposing a suggestion.

 

Well I never said he was required to support his conclusion.

 

I'm going to say that is useless without it.

[Uun]

8 hours ago, Raikao said:

I'm not happy with just shelving my /cold build forever. I can see that this change would be quite involved, but it's also been like this  4+ years.

You're going to shelve your /cold because you can't power boost the shields? Be my guest, but you clearly don't know what makes the set great. BTW, it's been like this for 18 years.

[arcane]

8 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

I'm amazed that this would still show up. "hurr durr it's op but I wont tell you why", when I literally pointed out that with PowerBoost working Cold Domination would still give LESS defense than just using force fields. BUt I guess we can't even have side grade choices or fix obvious bugs or problems with the engine. Just ever.

 

You didn't even say why you've come to this "conclusion". It's just sad.

I don’t owe you an explanation of the current meta. Cold Domination is currently the most in-demand set in the game along with Kinetics. It’s obvious why it shouldn’t be buffed to anyone who’s paying attention. Now stop throwing tantrums.

[honoroit]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

stop throwing tantrums

 

its probably my favorite emote.

 

in fairness, and complexity in implementation aside, there does appear a disparity.

 

classifying an issue as 'wont fix - complexity of implementation prohibative' is acceptable.

 

but thats what this is, versus notion at balance?

[TheZag]

But force field doesnt have a +HP buff,  or 60% of -resistance debuffs,  or 500% -regen debuff,  or an AoE endurance refill +recovery buff,  or an AoE 30% plus a single target 30% defense debuff,  or 470% of -recharge debuffs.

 

What force field does have is some of the hard to come by toxic resistance.....oh wait,  cold domination has that too,  lemme try again.  What force field does have is defense buffs.....oh wait.  What force field has is resistance to some effects - cold domination has resistance to some effects but force field offers more,  finally found something.

 

Force field has higher defense buffs and more status protections compared to cold domination and thats about all.  Cold domination dances circles around most other buff sets that focus on a few effects.  It probably has a close second place to those sets and then laughs as it drops sleet, heat loss and benumb.  Ive heard the devs dont like power boost working on buffs that last many times longer than power boost itself (one of those working as designed but not as intended situations).  Even based on the description of power boost 'boosts the secondary effects,  only your next few attacks will be boosted'  its more likely to draw attention to the subject of if the primary effect of a non attack ability should get boosted at all.

 

[WindDemon21]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:39 PM, arcane said:

Buffing Cold Domination as it is today would be a stupid idea.

I mean, i could live with the shields not being boostable. However, they 100% should change frostwork into a pbaoe buff with some regen added to it. One, it's just super annoying and most of the time most people have their hp buffed or capped with bonuses/accolades/dull pain etc. So the additional hp is often like nothing. Plus cold doesn't have much in the way of self-survival. This would help to keep the cold user alive as well.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

I mean, i could live with the shields not being boostable. However, they 100% should change frostwork into a pbaoe buff with some regen added to it. One, it's just super annoying and most of the time most people have their hp buffed or capped with bonuses/accolades/dull pain etc. So the additional hp is often like nothing. Plus cold doesn't have much in the way of self-survival. This would help to keep the cold user alive as well.

Wait, a reason for soloists like me to want to take cold dom'?! Be still my shriveled, charred cardio-pump!

[WindDemon21]

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Wait, a reason for soloists like me to want to take cold dom'?! Be still my shriveled, charred cardio-pump!

Lol, i mean especially on squishie hp, having it as a max hp buff and like, 150% regen wouldn't be that crazy, but it would be SO much better though that way buffing yourself, but also mainly making it an aoe buff, as it's single target buff is just utterly terrible in like 95% of scenarios especially with it's current rech/duration stats.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Wait, a reason for soloists like me to want to take cold dom'?! Be still my shriveled, charred cardio-pump!

I don't get this, Cold Dom is just as good a set when solo as it is on a team. Even if the shields were removed from the powerset and it only had 7 powers it would still be one of the best support sets in the game instead of just the best.

Edited August 17, 2023 by macskull

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don't get this, Cold Dom is just as good a set when solo as it is on a team. Even if the shields were removed from the powerset and it only had 7 powers it would still be one of the best support sets in the game instead of just the best.

I have a /Cold Domination Corruptor. And just the 1 cold dom' character. (Edit again: That character does have Frostwork, but that is because I needed powers to fill out the character.) I won't make any more because 3 of the powers are ally only and I have no MM character concepts that would use it at this time. (Still better than Thermal Radiation which I won't make even 1 character of.) When a full third of the powers in a set are ones I can't routinely use, I am disinclined to use it. (Edit: And I can relatively routinely find uses for most any power in a power set.)

 

Bear in mind, I am by no means saying that Cold Domination sucks, or is in need of buffing, or is in need of power changes, or anything else like that. I am just saying that me, and only me, as a soloist, find the set unappealing because 3 of the 4 buffs in the set can't be used by me while playing solo. (Edit: Hence the "soloists like me" part of the post.) (Edit again: I am well aware that some sets are designed to be team-centric. I'm fine with that. More power to those players that use those sets.)

Edited August 17, 2023 by Rudra

[Raikao]

Well fair enough this is entirely from an MM perspective. Maybe Defense isn't everything. I've also been chasing incarnate caps recently and now wonder if I even need more than softcap. If it's really only releveant in incarnate trials. I haven't even done a single one yet.

[Raikao]

17 hours ago, Uun said:

You're going to shelve your /cold because you can't power boost the shields? Be my guest, but you clearly don't know what makes the set great. BTW, it's been like this for 18 years.

 

While I've come around to looking at the set as a whole and to "not everything needs to be the same in power, if it differes in other aspects".

 

Saying "it's been like this for 18 years" is just braindead. That is absolutely the worst argument I've read here to date.

[Ghost]

6 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

Saying "it's been like this for 18 years" is just braindead. That is absolutely the worst argument I've read here to date.

I don’t believe they were posting 18+ years as an argument - seems more like they were posting a clarification on the ridiculous “it’s been 4+ years” statement you made.