Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #41: Gangs of New Paragon (Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, Warriors)

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back. This week's thread is about the street level gangs within Paragon City such as the Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors.

 

What do you think of these and other similar street gang esque factions? Do they offer meaningful character development for you as your characters overcome the nuances of your common street gangs before being ready to face other factions? Does their lore hold up in your opinion? What if anything would you change about these kinds of groups?

 

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

As always thanks.

[UltraAlt]

3 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

the street level gangs within Paragon City such as the Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors.

 

I don't really see Warrior as street level myself.

 

4 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think of these and other similar street gang esque factions? Do they offer meaningful character development for you as your characters overcome the nuances of your common street gangs before being ready to face other factions?

 

I like to fight the Hellions more than the Skulls.  They do provide the stepping stone toward the higher level enemies.

The whole supradyne trade in the City is kind of fun to bust up.

 

I haven't been able to take part in a good supradyne raid since starting to play on Homecoming.

 

7 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

I had a friend start playing after I had started back before the Sunset. They couldn't stop himself from fighting every purse snatcher on the street. They would level up. It seemed like sometimes that he was leveling up before we could even get to the mission door because of it. Sometimes it seemed like we would never get to a mission because they would always turnaround after defeating a mob and see another purse-snatching going on.

[High_Beam]

The Hellions are straight up fodder.  The Skulls used to be like that until they added the Superadine RIng story arc which gave them more depth and a bit more menace to them.  Their revamp to include the Death Dolls and Death Walkers and the story's to go with it made them step into the playable story enemy realm.  Conversely trying to shoehorn a second low-level fodder faction into a content change seems like a wasted effort.  Plus when one understands that the Circle made a pact with the Prince of Hell, the Circle gets to be the increasing level devil lovers.

 

The Warriors, if you do the Redemption of Alexander Arc you get some details form them and when coupled with Mortimer Kal TF, they have a little more depth.  I still think they are lame; they need some powered boss types like the Tsoo have (magical warrior artifacts or maybe even getting small doses of low powered incarnate energy).  Or lean into the mthology a bit and add some female flair (stolen from say Cimerora template) with Oracles and such like they did with Girlfriend from Hell.

 

Outcasts.  Hollows.  Nuff Said.  Boring and I am tired of dealing with Frostfire . . . everywhere.

 

Trolls . . . me have body by Superadine.  We are given a little more troll flavor in the Lords of Death Skull Arc.  And if you do he Hollows and the Cavern of Transcendance a little more.  But really they are essentially drug addicts.  So unless someone wants to lean in and go hard on making them rage-filled murder thugs who rip arms off and beat you with them, move on.  You give them say an unrelenting pursuit thing like those Ghouls in Praetoria but capable at resisting and regenerating, or you create some unique bosses.  Or at least give us some depth story wise.  I used them as a minor plot device in book one of the Munitions Mistress series (edited somewhat due to liberal use of the F-Word):

 

For a second or two I thought I had made a mistake asking, he looked like he was going to go off, but that lasted only a few seconds.  “Freaking Superadine.  Freaking Trolls.  They was bigger and stronger so we got our asses beat.  But unlike the old days, those green fuckers didn’t stop.  Billy was stabbed through the chest with some freaking rebar.  Manny, Man Hittin they freaking cut his head clean off.  The Brawler almost made it, almost had that freaking Troll leader, Grondor or Gundor or whatever the hell his name was.  But crazy guys like to fight in groups, so they ripped him apart . . . literally pulled his arms and legs right out of their sockets.”  He wiped his eyes a little and looked up at the ceiling. 

 

I actually felt bad about asking, “Sorry Jimmy, I didn’t mean to.” 

 

He waved me off.  “Nah, nah, the Doc says it’s good for me to deal with my issues.  So anyways, me and the Islander escape, but we are pissed so we do the only thing we think we can do.  We get us some Superadine.  We figure, it gave those mooks powers, it should increase our powers right.  Of course, we weren’t doctors, hell most of us didn’t graduate high school, so we had no idea what would happen.  Oh, but that first hit was freaking fabulous, I mean I dead lifted a freaking Mack truck and tipped it over like it was a freaking Tonka toy.  And the Islander, forget about it, that guy could already knock a Rhino out, and I mean literally, we got drunk, went to the Bronx Zoo and he knocked a freaking Rhino out.  So now it’s on and we head back to the Trolls turf, and we murdered them all, like a freaking hurricane."

It's all about story with all of these factions.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Hellions - Someone has to be street-level fodder for budding Heroes, and I think Hellions are fine at that. They provide just enough lore interactivity to stay interesting, but not at a very deep level. When it comes to their demon worship, they definitely do find themselves in a bit in over their heads (which is expanded upon just a bit redside), which I think is fine. Though I think there are some cool ideas for a mid-level trial. Another thing I'd like to point out is Hellions do have a slight bit of scaling strength into the mid teens. Fallen mobs will start throwing molotovs, which can turn into numerous burn patches. Slightly underutilized at the high end of their range, but prevalent enough as a street gang that they remain iconic. Could benefit from a fresh coat of paint though.

 

Skulls - They are intended to basically be a slight step up from Hellions in terms of strength, which is great! The KR revamp gave them a really nice, fleshed out story involving the Petrovic Brothers and are an outstanding introduction to just how tough thugs can be if left unchecked (both in combat and in lore). They are in a phenomenal place right now and I couldn't think of any ways to improve them further.

 

Outcasts - Outside of The Hollows, Outcasts don't have much of an impact in the lore. Not really much there outside of, "Look out, newbie. These guys have powers!" How would you expand upon that, I'm not sure. The group seems pretty defunct after Frostfire is sent to jail and starts his redemption arc. In terms of power scaling, they are already there. Mass hordes of Outcasts can be dangerous to the ill equipped, and have always been that way.

 

Trolls - Trolls suffer from the same problem Outcasts do, but I think it's a little more understandable from a lore standpoint. Superadine abuse has essentially rotted most of their brains and organization isn't exactly in the forefront of their thoughts. However, there are a couple of standouts that we really don't see touched upon. Who is Grendel? All we know is that he was the leader of the Trolls before Atta took that spot, and the massive gulch in The Hollows is named after him. Did he cause it? If so, how is someone with that much power just never visible on our screens? Also, I wouldn't really consider Skyway raves as expansion on their lore, but as more of an environmental anomaly. What could be done to make them cooler?

 

Warriors - I think the Warriors are in the most desperate need of a look at. Back in the day, taking on Warriors was a hefty challenge, as they were one of the first groups to really bring the pain as you were just getting your first round of SOs. Now, not necessarily the case. I would even argue that Council are more dangerous in the respective level range. There are some interesting bits in the lore where the Warriors are present, but hardly ever make any real impact when they're involved. It doesn't seem like it should be that way. For some fun reading, here is their description in the AE: "After making a deal with a demon prince, David Odysseus Hill formed one of the most powerful gang forces in Paragon City. In fact, he now leads the coalition of gangs known as Smuggler's Run. All of the Warriors gain power by drinking from an ancient mystical urn given to Odysseus by the demon. It is whispered around Paragon City that the urn is connected to the Well of the Furies. With his own highly trained fighting force adding the muscle provided by the Hellions and Outcasts, this group is a threat to take over all gang activity in Paragon City." This feels like a huge chunk of info that isn't really played with in the game, or maybe I'm just missing it. With the lore implications, the Warriors could definitely be up for an Incarnate-style expansion.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[Herotu]

7 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back. This week's thread is about the street level gangs within Paragon City such as the Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors.

 

What do you think of these and other similar street gang esque factions? Do they offer meaningful character development for you as your characters overcome the nuances of your common street gangs before being ready to face other factions? Does their lore hold up in your opinion? What if anything would you change about these kinds of groups?

 

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

As always thanks.

There's a power called gang war. Why aren't there any street fights? Would it kill the processors to have some gang-on-gang action? I mean, make the city seem more alive and less about "pods" of "mobs" waiting to be "farmed".

 

A good example is the fire events in Steel Canyon. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Herotu

[SeraphimKensai]

9 minutes ago, Herotu said:

There's a power called gang war. Why aren't there any street fights? Would it kill the processors to have some gang-on-gang action? I mean, make the city seem more alive and less about "pods" of "mobs" waiting to be "farmed".

 

A good example is the fire events in Steel Canyon. 

I'm not opposed to something like a war between the hellions and skulls. They were introduced prior to any NPC mob having hostility for any other NPC groups. It would be like the greasers and the socs in Paragon City.

[Black Zot]

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

 

There's no lower limit to human (lack of) intelligence.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Black Zot

[Snarky]

I enjoy the depth of lore on each group and how those plotlines are woven through the larger tapestry of the game

[JasperStone]

20 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I enjoy the depth of lore on each group and how those plotlines are woven through the larger tapestry of the game

 

Tapestry?

Better tie off that weave novice

 

[A Cat]

I like the newer arcs that feature the Hellions and Skulls. But we do seem to have a bit of the ol' blue arc due to the sunset cutting us off from the conclusion of the New Regulators/Skulls arc. Outcasts and Trolls are developed decently well in the Hollows arcs. Warriors, well, seem like supporting characters more than anything to me. I'm sure there are arcs out there that cover them better. But my main memory of them being story relevant recently is from the Night Ward arc where you crash the illegal magic stuff auction. 

[UltraAlt]

11 hours ago, Herotu said:

There's a power called gang war. Why aren't there any street fights? Would it kill the processors to have some gang-on-gang action? I mean, make the city seem more alive and less about "pods" of "mobs" waiting to be "farmed".

 

How about adding random "gang war" zone events and/or adding random patrols of the various enemy groups for that zone that wander about the zone looking for other "gangs" to fight?

 

For the random patrols, set them up based on the level of the subsection of the zone that they are patrolling. They only patrol inside their subsection of the zone.

[cranebump]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

How about adding random "gang war" zone events and/or adding random patrols of the various enemy groups for that zone that wander about the zone looking for other "gangs" to fight?

It's got to be doable, since KR has so many "Police v. Thugs" encounters going on (including some right near Blue Steel). It's just a matter of settings, I assume?

 

As far as my general take on this discussion: I'm wondering whether or not we could do something with Perez Park. Maybe a TF that clears the Skulls and Hellies out of there. I know we have Clocks, CoT and Lost there, too, so the question might be, what's drawing them all in (other than the fact there seems to be no law enforcement presence whatsoever)? 

 

This nugget from the wiki gives a scenario: "

The biggest problem the park has, however, is that it's become a hotbed of the gang wars in Paragon City.

Two groups of thugs, the Hellions and the Skulls, have focused their conflicts here. Both of these gangs are connected to more powerful organizations, but no one has been able to conclusively determine their benefactors. One thing's for certain, though; anyone caught in Perez Park at the wrong time is likely to get caught between these two vicious groups during one of their many skirmishes.

  Sounds like an opportunity for a big, involved arc, with several different groups involved.

Edited August 17, 2023 by cranebump

[huang3721]

23 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Does their lore hold up in your opinion?

 

I think the lore holds up quite well. 
Paragon City is a fertile ground for street gangs. Its economy is perpetually in shambles, its infrastructure is failing, and it is home to many marginalized people (e.g., refugees, mutants, poor and homeless). Last but not least, its law enforcement is stretched to a breaking point thanks to frequent super-related disasters.

 

Even Supers can't change the status quo. For every Hellion or Outcast arrested, another one replaces him. The game depicts this problem by spawning a gang member in the same spot where the player defeated him less than five minutes ago. It's beautiful. 

 

23 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

Because they often succeed. Think about it. Dr. Vahzilok constructs his Abominations out of the best ingredients he can find: the organs of fallen heroes. How does he get a steady supply of body parts? The gangs. They have killed so many fledgling superheroes that our good doctor has enough spare parts to build an army.

 

Most players don't get this because their toon survived. It's survivor bias, more or less.

[Solarverse]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:41 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back. This week's thread is about the street level gangs within Paragon City such as the Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors.

 

What do you think of these and other similar street gang esque factions? Do they offer meaningful character development for you as your characters overcome the nuances of your common street gangs before being ready to face other factions? Does their lore hold up in your opinion? What if anything would you change about these kinds of groups?

 

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

As always thanks.

 

I'm actually glad you brought this up. Lately me and my significant other was running the Hollows missions (all the way through Atta and his Guards) and as we were rolling through it made me realize how pitiful the zone mobs are in there. It's supposed to be a Hazard zone but because of the mob's levels and how they are grouped, it is now more like a playground. There is no fear associated with traveling around in the Hollows, it doesn't bring that edge of your seat feeling anymore. I would love to see this changed.

[Herotu]

19 hours ago, cranebump said:

It's got to be doable, since KR has so many "Police v. Thugs" encounters going on (including some right near Blue Steel). It's just a matter of settings, I assume?

I was thinking how you could do an event like the burning building. I came up with ...

 

Assault on Precinct 14.

I haven't got much further than that. Thugs attack a cop shop. If players don't stop them the thugs win and... er.. something. Like the burning building, probably no consequences, but still.. maybe a badge if they manage to succeed, whatever that looks like.

 

I suppose that's much like this already existing demi-event in Nova Praetoria.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Herotu
You'll never guess what happened next! CLICK.

[Techwright]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:41 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back. This week's thread is about the street level gangs within Paragon City such as the Hellions, Skulls, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors.

 

What do you think of these and other similar street gang esque factions? Do they offer meaningful character development for you as your characters overcome the nuances of your common street gangs before being ready to face other factions? Does their lore hold up in your opinion? What if anything would you change about these kinds of groups?

 

*Why oh why would some of them be stupid enough to try and steal a purse 150 feet from Ms. Liberty and her army of fledging superheroes trying to make a name for themselves?*

 

As always thanks.

 

Hellions I find to be something of a "one trick pony": occultic, plays with fire.  I could wish for greater depth.

 

Skulls have improved.  I like the two story arcs with them in Kings Row.  I could wish for more, but I'm not sure what direction is left, unless it is an attempt at underlings  rising to command.

 

Outcasts have potential beyond Frostfire.  Loved Frostfire back in the day, haven't played enough of his second arc.  I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'd like to see either a task force or an arc where we see a small council of archvillains running the show, one per power set.  Maybe a rotational head of the council: "Earth powers is acting head this next year.  Fire will be after that." I'd like to see additional elemental powers added to their ranks.  They've ice powers, but last I knew they didn't have water powers.  Would like to see that added either as a subset to an ice leader, or it's own division.  Storm powers too, perhaps under the electrical leadership.    One possible TF or story arc:  Outcasts, seeking to rise greater than a lower-level gang, begin science experiments to make the rare dual-elemental powers, like Frostfire, become standard in the ranks.  The TF might cause that to fail, but not completely, leading us to getting a few surprise dual-powered Elite bosses appearing seemingly at random, much like quantum gunners occasionally appear when a Keldian is on the team.

 

Trolls: another "one trick pony".  Rage, superstrength, invulnerability.  Again, add to their ranks.  New story arc where an experimental batch of superdyne has a new mutation effect on some Trolls leading to unpredictable power changes and less stability than they've retained.  These rarer Trolls would not have a clear second powerset, but would rather have a few random powers with seemingly no pattern.  This may cause Atta a lot of headaches as they are perceived as a new elite within the Trolls, and an attempted coup is tried.

 

Warriors...not much to say understanding that changes have been in the works in the background.

 

The next ones may not fit everyone's definition of "street gang", but the various Mafia type gangs: The Family, Mooks, Marcones all seem pretty generic to me.  It's been a while since I interacted with the red-side ones so perhaps I've forgotten some key stuff.  The Family's Underbosses and Consigliers are slightly more interesting, and way back at the beginning a bit unnerving, but otherwise the guys on the street are pretty stock.  Not sure what, but they could use an update.  Tracksuits maybe? 😉   What I know of the Frost family backstory I like though.  The problem is that we never (as far as I know) get to take on Sebastian Frost.  He's kidnapped on a red-side mission and seen in the Mot storyline.  I'd really like to see what he and the uppermost tier of The Family are like fueled by the pure Superdyne.