Lets talk Regeneration Set

[GastlyGibus]

I was going to make a lengthy post, but I see most of the bases have already been covered.

 

I'm usually the guy who tells people to play what they want, and that every set can be "viable" with the right builds and playstyle, but regen is decidedly lacking in that department. It's not that it's completely unplayable, but it needs a lot of work to bring it up to the level of what other sets can do at only a fraction of the effort. If all you're doing is standard +1/x1 solo content, or joining teams, then yeah, it's... okay. You're not going to be absolutely useless. I have a SM/Regen Stalker, mostly kitted out with IO sets, and I enjoy him well enough, but it would also be insane for me to suggest he performs anywhere near the level of my other melee characters. Hell, I have some "weaker" AT's like defenders and blasters who aren't kitted out and can still out-perform my Stalker on survivability and utility.

 

The major problem with regen is just that literally every other set in the game out-performs it by a mile. It finishes dead last in the race, all the time, every time. Willpower replaced regen as the set for getting your health back, because it essentially did everything regen could do but better and with good resistance and defenses to boot.

 

Long story short, if all you're doing is joining casual teams and standard soloing just for fun, then sure. Go nuts. Regen is playable in that sense. However, if you're wanting to tackle the big challenges, like a "Master of X" run or a 4-Star Aeon run, then you're probably going to have a bad time.

 

EDITED TO ADD: The other reason it's such a contentious topic is, as others have noted, regeneration used to be the absolute best set in the game, bar none. Regen would make you into an unkillable god, and this was before things like IO sets and incarnates. Because of this, it got nerfed... and nerfed... and nerfed again... then enhancement diversification happened, IO sets came onto the scene, WIllpower was born, incarnates got added, lots of powerset proliferation, and poor regen just got left behind in the dust.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by GastlyGibus

[Psi-bolt]

11 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

EDITED TO ADD: The other reason it's such a contentious topic is, as others have noted, regeneration used to be the absolute best set in the game, bar none. Regen would make you into an unkillable god, and this was before things like IO sets and incarnates. Because of this, it got nerfed... and nerfed... and nerfed again... then enhancement diversification happened, IO sets came onto the scene, WIllpower was born, incarnates got added, lots of powerset proliferation, and poor regen just got left behind in the dust.

 

 

 

As I said back in 2004-2005 to Statesman and Geko, I don't think Regen was ever as good as everyone portrayed it.  We forget now what kind of loony crap you could do prior to ED.  I remember Fire Tankers herding most of the NPCs in Brickstown and burning them down.  Invulnerability basically not dying because the damage sources were even more biased towards Smashing, Lethal than they are now.  

 

Regen had a particular problem.  If it survived the first 2-5 seconds of the fight, it won.  Period.   AVs, large mobs of enemies, whatever.  The catch was that you didn't always survive those first 2-5 seconds.  Also as someone noted above, it also was a set where you played to level 28, got Instant Healing, and then rebuilt your whole secondary around having that one power on at all times.  The developers at the time repeatedly took the wrong tack to correct this problem by removing regeneration from Integration and Instant Healing.  Then they made Instant Healing a long term click because they were too unimaginative to realize that changing a power from a toggle to a click was every bit as much of a change in the essential nature of the power as changing it from a regeneration buff to a resistance buff or something.

 

But that's water under the bridge.  Frankly, Regen is maybe the worst set for some.   I honestly don't see it as that bad, even though I think it should be buffed (a bit).  

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Psi-bolt

[catsi563]

21 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Well, shoot, why not make Moment of Glory a toggle as well then?  

because its MOMENT of glory

 

not ongoing gloty

[cranebump]

8 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

because its MOMENT of glory

 

not ongoing gloty

Yessss...I can see it now--Epoch of Glory!

[Captain Fabulous]

On 9/20/2023 at 6:27 AM, liveevil2000 said:

my gut told me a toon with this set will face plant a ton without a boat load of help. 

Your gut is correct.

[Captain Fabulous]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:47 AM, liveevil2000 said:

I dont think I'd have access to Shockwave until lvl26 and for this test I'd going to 25. But even so, it's still even ground I would think. I'm sure every offensive set would have some kind of mitigation to it from higher DPS to finish off things quicker to disorienting and KB.

 

could always just have a toon stand there and take a pounding and see how long it takes to hit the pavement ... but what fun is that?

 

Honestly you should do this on the test server. Make them level 50s and outfit them with SOs or common IOs. This way you can use each set's entire kit. Some sets are more frontloaded than others. For example, Invulnerability really doesn't shine till you get Invincibility at level 24, whereas Willpower gets their cornerstone power Rise to the Challenge at 16. And poor Regen, unlike the other sets with a mostly useless T9, has Moment of Glory that's integral to the set, which you don't get till level 30.

[liveevil2000]

I really want to play it though. If I find that I am not into it like I am other toons I have lvled, then I'll scrap it.

 

So far I did a DFB run last night and a little street clearing. I went with Kin/Regen Brute. I figure the KD and disorient effects of Kinetics will mitigate some damage.

I faceplanted a good bit during the DFB run, but thats  just lvl1 - 8. Getting my but kicked in happens.

Tonight I'm going to try another DFB run and I hope maybe have time for Posi1 and a couple of solo door missions.

[loyalreader]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:08 PM, Without_Pause said:

In the list of issues for Regen, it doesn't even have resistance to being debuffed for what it does. It should at a minimum resist -regen and -recharge.

Didn't even read the rest of the thread, but this is a major issue with Regen for me (had a 50 regen scrapper on live, and a 50 regen brute on HC). How about resist -endurance drain as well? The two things that the set is supposed to be good and no resist? 

[Psyonico]

54 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

I really want to play it though. If I find that I am not into it like I am other toons I have lvled, then I'll scrap it.

 

So far I did a DFB run last night and a little street clearing. I went with Kin/Regen Brute. I figure the KD and disorient effects of Kinetics will mitigate some damage.

I faceplanted a good bit during the DFB run, but thats  just lvl1 - 8. Getting my but kicked in happens.

Tonight I'm going to try another DFB run and I hope maybe have time for Posi1 and a couple of solo door missions.

Kin also has the added effect of -damage, which should help a little.

 

I personally have a MA/Regen brute to stack Storm Kick's defense on top of Regen, he's relatively sturdy, and if I ever bother IOing him out the rest of the way should be almost tanky.

[Without_Pause]

2 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Kin also has the added effect of -damage, which should help a little.

 

I personally have a MA/Regen brute to stack Storm Kick's defense on top of Regen, he's relatively sturdy, and if I ever bother IOing him out the rest of the way should be almost tanky.

The counterpoint is Kin's animations being on the longer side and the DPA being underwhelming. Let's take PBAoE.

 

Brute numbers:

Whirling Smash: Arcana Time: 1.188 sec. DPA: 36.51 // Needs Momentum

Spin: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 29.86 // So skipping the Scrapper version.

Dragon's Tail: Arcana Time: 1.716 sec. DPA: 28.72

Foot Stomp: Arcana Time: 2.244 sec. DPA: 26.39 // Rage not factored in. 

Axe Cyclone: Arcana Time: 1.767 sec. DPA: 23.6

Frozen Aura: Arcana Time: 2.244 sec. DPA: 26.47

Mass Levitate: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 22.434

Atom Smasher: Arcana Time: 3.168 sec. DPA: 21.24

Lightning Clap: Arcana Time: 1.452 sec. DPA: 21.199

The Lotus Drops: Arcana Time: 1.98 sec. DPA: 21.06

Rending Flurry: Arcana Time: 2.376 sec. DPA: 20.75 // Base damage no DoT, normal mode version.

Fire Sword Circle: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 20.45 // I skipped the DoT because the numbers were already better.

Eye of the Storm: Arcana Time: 2.772 sec. DPA: 19.12

Whirling Hands: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 18.71

Burst: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 17.95

Whirling Sword:  Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 17.23 // Assuming the DoT all hit.

Spinning Strike: Arcana Time: 1.98 sec. DPA: 16.22 // Likely lower due to combo system, technically a targeted AoE

Whirling Mace: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 16.08

Tremor: Arcana Time: 2.772 sec. DPA: 15.64

Spine Burst: Arcana Time: 3.168 sec. DPA: 14.48 // I technically did only 2 of the 3 DoT even though odds are that's on the low side.

Typhoon's Edge: Arcana Time: 2.508 sec. DPA: 9.48 // Numbers are likely low due to being the finishing move in a combo.

 

Also, /regen doesn't want to be caught in long animations.

[A Cat]

57 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

The counterpoint is Kin's animations being on the longer side and the DPA being underwhelming. Let's take PBAoE.

 

Brute numbers:

Whirling Smash: Arcana Time: 1.188 sec. DPA: 36.51 // Needs Momentum

Spin: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 29.86 // So skipping the Scrapper version.

Dragon's Tail: Arcana Time: 1.716 sec. DPA: 28.72

Foot Stomp: Arcana Time: 2.244 sec. DPA: 26.39 // Rage not factored in. 

Axe Cyclone: Arcana Time: 1.767 sec. DPA: 23.6

Frozen Aura: Arcana Time: 2.244 sec. DPA: 26.47

Mass Levitate: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 22.434

Atom Smasher: Arcana Time: 3.168 sec. DPA: 21.24

Lightning Clap: Arcana Time: 1.452 sec. DPA: 21.199

The Lotus Drops: Arcana Time: 1.98 sec. DPA: 21.06

Rending Flurry: Arcana Time: 2.376 sec. DPA: 20.75 // Base damage no DoT, normal mode version.

Fire Sword Circle: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 20.45 // I skipped the DoT because the numbers were already better.

Eye of the Storm: Arcana Time: 2.772 sec. DPA: 19.12

Whirling Hands: Arcana Time: 2.64 sec. DPA: 18.71

Burst: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 17.95

Whirling Sword:  Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 17.23 // Assuming the DoT all hit.

Spinning Strike: Arcana Time: 1.98 sec. DPA: 16.22 // Likely lower due to combo system, technically a targeted AoE

Whirling Mace: Arcana Time: 2.904 sec. DPA: 16.08

Tremor: Arcana Time: 2.772 sec. DPA: 15.64

Spine Burst: Arcana Time: 3.168 sec. DPA: 14.48 // I technically did only 2 of the 3 DoT even though odds are that's on the low side.

Typhoon's Edge: Arcana Time: 2.508 sec. DPA: 9.48 // Numbers are likely low due to being the finishing move in a combo.

 

Also, /regen doesn't want to be caught in long animations.

Damn , that's an awesome chart. Where did you get that?

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, A Cat said:

Damn , that's an awesome chart. Where did you get that?

Old school City of Data and the Calculator app. 🙂

[KC4800]

53 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Also, /regen doesn't want to be caught in long animations.

This. I have a WM/Regen scrapper and a Psy/Regen Sentinel. I like them both, although neither are favorites.

 

I play defenders with enough defensive mitigation, that I can turn off green drops and still play well. My regen scrapper, who is supposed to be able to regen health so fast, eats more green skittles than any other character, that is if Im not caught in a long attack animation and die before the game realizes I tried to eat that green.

 

My Sentinel almost never dies because she hovers at range and never takes a punch to the face.

[Without_Pause]

To add, Kin's best DPA is in an attack which has a 3.036 Arcana Time and has a 20 second recharge. Claws isn't alone in this, but Kin's AoE really isn't that good either. Compare Shockwave and Repulsing Torrent. Scrapper numbers are 55.29 DPA versus 30.667 DPA. I've done Kin a couple of times, and I delete it every time. Today I did a mission with Tsoo, and I kept looking at them and going, "But it looks so cool."

 

Regen wants sets with quicker animation times and mitigation with at least reasonable DPS. Claws/regen is popular for more than just Wolverine. Kat/regen has also been a strong recommendation.

[Snokle]

16 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Regen wants sets with quicker animation times and mitigation with at least reasonable DPS. Claws/regen is popular for more than just Wolverine. Kat/regen has also been a strong recommendation.

 

I will add Kat/Regen a great combo, for the great animation time, but also for Divine Avalanche with the huge boost in melee defense it gives the toon.

[catsi563]

23 hours ago, cranebump said:

Yessss...I can see it now--Epoch of Glory!

Does seem that way with the protectors sometimes doesnt it 

[drbuzzard]

There is great irony in the discussion of 'moment'  of glory where people seemingly have forgotten that after one of the regen nerfs, the optimal build was perma MoG. Yes, regen was a defense build for a while there. 

[Troo]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:29 AM, liveevil2000 said:

I went with Kin/Regen Brute. I figure the KD and disorient effects of Kinetics will mitigate some damage.

 

Ooof. I'd suggest Stone Melee over KM.

 

Regeneration, like other sets, has better and worse secondary synergies. I too like secondaries with -tohit, knockdown, or +dmg, etc.

 

 

@liveevil2000 you might like Regeneration as long as the expectation includes understanding that it is not a defensive/dodging set.

 

Troo, whatchoo mean?  Answer: Regeneration characters get hit. Often... well, nearly always.

 

Regeneration heavily rewards tactical awareness. Knowing what targets have slows or nasty debuffs allows prioritization in order to minimize their impact.

The reactive nature of the set it can be fun and different. Learning how to time some of the activations can lead to some faceplants, which the player will know could have been avoided.

 

If I were new to the set, I'd consider taking Revive at 28 until I didn't need it anymore. (full disclosure: it's not in any of my builds)

 

If a player is accustom to using inspirations frequently, it has been argued that Regeneration could be the best set when leveraging the tactic. (not my style)

 

_____ ___ ______

Regeneration can be very knife's edgey where we're either comfortably taking hits or things are going south very quickly to where a player better have a plan.

My plan at times has been: Cycling a combination of Moment of Glory, Instant Healing, Rune of Protection, & Demonic Aura while applying Darkest Night as needed.

These days I am not using Dull Pain perma like I used to. I pop it on occasion if I get to 1/2 health.

 

I and others have done +4/8 challenges on Regeneration characters without Incarnates.

I still think the set on a Tank would be overpowered.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Troo

[Yomo Kimyata]

It's a different playstyle from the meta, which is softcap defense and DDR and kill everything before the RNG gets you.  And it's a fun playstyle, and I've found it as effective as anything else at 4/8.  It does deserve some sort of debuff resistance, in my opinion, but there are tools to work around that in the incarnates.

[liveevil2000]

Guys,

 

today marks day 3 of playing with the regen set on a brute. 
 

I find that the Regeneration set does not agree with my play style when it comes to the way I want to play a hand to hand character. 
 

I do not possess the finesse to manage this power set as described in some of the previous posts. 
 

while this set may work for some of you, it does not for me. I’m sure the set is great in the capable hands of someone who knows when and how to use each power. 
I’m not that person. 
 

in the end and to sum up this little journey. I did not have fun with the toon. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by liveevil2000

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, liveevil2000 said:

In the end and to sum up this little journey. I did not have fun with the toon. 

Not every set is for everybody, I've got sets (and heck, whole ATs) that don't jive with me.

[liveevil2000]

51 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Not every set is for everybody, I've got sets (and heck, whole ATs) that don't jive with me.

That’s me and controllers. 
 

…. but that’s a discussion for another thread. 

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

Guys,

 

today marks day 3 of playing with the regen set on a brute. 
 

I find that the Regeneration set does not agree with my play style when it comes to the way I want to play a hand to hand character. 
 

I do not possess the finesse to manage this power set as described in some of the previous posts. 
 

while this set may work for some of you, it does not for me. I’m sure the set is great in the capable hands of someone who knows when and how to use each power. 
I’m not that person. 
 

in the end and to sum up this little journey. I did not have fun with the toon. 

 

Don't worry, Regen used to be my jive, I played the living hell out of it. So when people say things like, "It is a set that is not for everybody" I eye roll at that statement, and that is putting it extremely kindly. It doesn't take rocket science to play the set. I explained the reason why I think players are talking the set up and I have seen no reason to change my mind. Using +4 x8 Council to talk up Regen's survival is like me saying that I am a great fighter because I can whoop little kids at the playground...when I am a grown adult. The talking point doesn't hold it's own very well. The set is not rocket science what-so-ever, so don't think it takes some type of mystical understanding of the set to play the set like some will have you believe. The set is complete and utter garbage, end of story.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Solarverse

[liveevil2000]

I’m not going to sit here and bash the set. 
I played it for 3 days and 31 levels.  
that’s the sum of my experience with it. 
 

If there are people who have fun with it and like playing it, I am in no position to bash it and take that fun away. 

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:

I’m not going to sit here and bash the set. 
I played it for 3 days and 31 levels.  
that’s the sum of my experience with it. 
 

If there are people who have fun with it and like playing it, I am in no position to bash it and take that fun away. 

 

We each handle our issues in our own way, some, like myself, this battle with Regen is more personal than it is for others. I played the set when it was actually good...granted, too good, but going from too good to completely useless was an extreme that was dealt like a punishment rather than a balancing action. To each their own though.