Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[biostem]

1 minute ago, StarkWhite said:

It actually used to summon two drones, but that was apparently causing some issues.

If that's the case, then I still think it needs a bit more to differentiate it from the blaster version...

[LittlestKnightNoah]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:43 PM, Exxar said:

Tranquilizer doesn't put enemies to sleep when I use it on my controller. Tested on hellions and clockwork around Prometheus Park on a level 1-2 character.

Agreed, would only seem to sleep enemies when the controller chance for extra control went off.  Also while I understand the attack does Toxic damage, the damage is way too low to be of much benefit.  

[Dispari]

The two drones version was cool, and at least somewhat distinct, though there was apparently some problem with hitboxes. But multi-pet powers like Fire Imps and Gremlins are supposed to have no-collision pushable hitboxes like MM pets anyway. I wonder if there's a reason that can't happen.

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, LittlestKnightNoah said:

Agreed, would only seem to sleep enemies when the controller chance for extra control went off.  Also while I understand the attack does Toxic damage, the damage is way too low to be of much benefit.  

 

The ST sleep is currently bugged and only applies sleep when damage misses. Already fixed internally.

[BurtHutt]

10 hours ago, biostem said:

Why's that?

When I think gun, I think bullets or lasers. Sure, this isn't always the case and I am not against this set but it is odd. The even bigger oddity is that it doesn't shoot anything like lasers or bullets. That is one thing they should add - projectiles.

 

Obviously I'll give it a go and see how I like. My initial reaction is 'meh'. It's another power set that just uses existing powers (for the most part). I did like the more innovative ideas that were involved in previous HC powers. Not all were awesome but it was different.

 

[SuperBear]

What if it wasn't a gun at all?

Almost every one of the set's powers could be a thrown canister/device that detonates on hit.

More of a gadget feel.

Then it either affects a single targeted enemy or spreads and affects the target and any enemies caught in the area (or any that pass through it).

 

Pet. Still think it needs more attacks, or multiple of the pet.

 

Just ideas. 

 

[Frosticus]

I could be wrong, but I don't see them giving this set an immob because it has a ranged taunting pet. 

Some combos can still exploit that aspect, but it feels deliberate that they avoided it given the plethora of web attacks already available to draw from. 

 

I'm going to give arse/thorn a whirl. I see nice synergy between the immob in impale, thorntrops helping with all the patches and I don't think powerboost has much impact on arsenal, so may as well go with an assault set that focuses on more damage. 

[Lost Deep]

Initial low-level testing is... not impressive. For my part, I don't hate sleeps; they're fine. They're not great, but as someone who solos a lot any CC, even the situational CC of sleep, is appreciated. I do like how Gas-grenade re-applies the sleep on a regular basis, I like how the tick rate is optimized so that if you do wind one with an AoE they reliably get one attack off before sleeping again; it's a nice bit of risk vs reward. That said, having two sleeps at first level is too many... and then you get access to cryo freeze ray, which is like tranquilizer but better. And then you get liquid nitrogen which is like sleep grenade but better. Yes, the recharge is limitingly slow, but when that's the only way it's lesser why bother slotting gas grenade at all? Even without worrying about synergies etc, this isn't a good setup for the first few tiers of the power set; it comes off something of a mess.

 

(That said, I don't play Controllers or Dominators much so I don't know how much of this is an assumed part of the sets or essential to synergies.)

[ParagonKid]

I feel a control set that does not stack useful debuffs, or have any unique mechanics to interest people, probably needs to be on par with Fire Control for damage output to be competitive.

[MagicalAct]

5 hours ago, ParagonKid said:

I feel a control set that does not stack useful debuffs, or have any unique mechanics to interest people, probably needs to be on par with Fire Control for damage output to be competitive.

It stacks -to hit debuffs, while also giving solid -damage, -recharge. Smoke Canister is entirely unique to this set, no other powers operates like it in the game at the moment, same for Liquid Nitrogen only damaging non sleeping enemies. I agree I'd like to see it's damage upped to make the no mass immob=bad crowd happy, but I feel like people are just saying stuff to say stuff at this point.

[Dispari]

Honestly I think the powers being flagged to not work on sleeping enemies is a crutch. It's a neat mechanic, but it's a band-aid on the set trying desperately to justify the sleep power's existence. Common pairings with the set will be dropping DoT patches everywhere, and anyone with an Interface is breaking sleep left and right. It also means to get the most out of the set, you're either lacking the debuffs that the sleep power offers (which could be in some other, better power), or reducing your set's damage. And it also keeps putting enemies you confused to sleep. It doesn't work.

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

Honestly I think the powers being flagged to not work on sleeping enemies is a crutch. It's a neat mechanic, but it's a band-aid on the set trying desperately to justify the sleep power's existence. Common pairings with the set will be dropping DoT patches everywhere, and anyone with an Interface is breaking sleep left and right. It also means to get the most out of the set, you're either lacking the debuffs that the sleep power offers (which could be in some other, better power), or reducing your set's damage. And it also keeps putting enemies you confused to sleep. It doesn't work.

 

I mentioned this too and just want to reiterate that the **common** pairing is important with common being the operative word: most people playing Arse Control WILL be Arse/Traps or Arse/Arse and that's pretty objective fact.  So instead of the dev team fighting to keep sleep in the set that will be broken like crazy by those pairings... viciously by Caltrops and Acid Mortar in traps: let's work towards making a set that intentionally synergizes very well with Traps.

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

most people playing Arse Control WILL be Arse/Traps or Arse/Arse and that's pretty objective fact. 

No, it isn’t.

[Shin Magmus]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

No, it isn’t.

K.

[Seed22]

8 hours ago, MagicalAct said:

same for Liquid Nitrogen only damaging non sleeping enemies

You DO know ice control did this first right? Right?!

[Shin Magmus]

Also Arcane makes a good point: this set needs a ST stun to stack with Flashbang.  I vote we delete a power for Beanbag.  Every gun set needs a good Beanbag, and think of the stacking.

[ScarySai]

If you approach buffing Smoke Cann with the idea of "Oh, we can't buff this too much, or it'll be better than seeds/mass confusion!" you'd be fundamentally misunderstanding the stark differences between how these powers work.

 

You could buff smoke cannister to like 5x current duration and it would still not be in the same realm as seeds. It can't even dominate, before we factor in just the limit of area that can be covered by smoke cann, and the fact the affected enemies have to eat a hit before anything happens.

[twozerofoxtrot]

58 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

viciously by Caltrops and Acid Mortar in traps:

 

It's already broken by your own pet.

 

You could be running an Arse/Emp troller and you're still going to bounce your own sleep by level 26.

[psylum1]

A control set that doesn't interact well with containment or domination, but has no bonus to compensate. That's where it stands right now.

 

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

 

I mentioned this too and just want to reiterate that the **common** pairing is important with common being the operative word: most people playing Arse Control WILL be Arse/Traps or Arse/Arse and that's pretty objective fact.  So instead of the dev team fighting to keep sleep in the set that will be broken like crazy by those pairings... viciously by Caltrops and Acid Mortar in traps: let's work towards making a set that intentionally synergizes very well with Traps.

THIS THIS.  

You can also go the vomit route as others, and myself have stated.  
A vomit and a debuff effect for the power ( to replace the sleep ) 

Just another option.  

You can also go immob
You can also go fear 
as viable options 

[Videra]

Throwing in my two cents, to echo some sentiments from many pages ago, this set has a fundamental problem.

A lack of an AOE immobilization.

One of my favorite CC characters is my Elec/Psi Dominator - and part of the reason the set works on a base level with paralyzing blast and static field is that Chain Fences exists. Chain Fences is the glue which makes what would otherwise be a very meek set of powers due to the game-play mechanic of Runners, work. I'm fully onboard with Arsenal Control being 'The Ground Patch' CC set, again, I love Electric Control, but you need to look at this from a basic functionality standpoint.

There is no reliable way to keep enemies in those patches. Stun is not good enough for that. Enemies will run when damage breaks sleep. On a Dominator, yes, Liquid Nitrogen and Cryo Freeze Ray may be enough. But we have to consider that controller exists, too. Controllers need to build mag. Bosses and Lieutenants will scatter when you drop those patches.  I admit, trollers aren't really my wheelhouse, but even I can tell lacking a containment option is bad.

Edit: I had to double-check because I felt like I was going insane, but LN and Sleep Grenade don't even dominate.

Edited January 25 by Videra

[ScarySai]

Changing sleep nade for the poison trap vomit effect would just work better for the power. You accomplish the same desired effect, but it actually does something useful.

[Videra]

Just now, ScarySai said:

Changing sleep nade for the poison trap vomit effect would just work better for the power. You accomplish the same desired effect, but it actually does something useful.

 

This would also be a good choice. Bopper, Powerhouse, please listen to us on this one. This is a miss. This set is a BIG miss.

[Shin Magmus]

I'll add one more response just to make a point that nobody will listen to...

 

You know what I have lv50 and fully incarnated right now: an Illusion/Traps Controller.  I'm going to *throw the devs a bone* and respec that character to be specifically an expert GM Hunter and start engaging with the new GM mechanics and rewards.  It looks "fun and appealing".

 

So now, in exchange, maybe the *devs can throw us a bone* and remove sleeps from Arsenal Control: and make it into a set that properly synergizes well with Traps.  Give me a reason to roll an Asrenal/Traps Controller even though I already have an Illusion/Traps; Make the new set genuinely good and interesting... make it "fun and appealing".  Right now, I would honestly never bother playing Arsenal Control: I'm not going to place 2 patch effects that are apparently core powers of the set, then use an AoE sleep that is broken exactly 0.5s later, then watch the enemies walk out of my patches.  Even more egregious: with no AoE Immob that reduces Knock*back* to Knock*down*: I lack the tools to prevent my teammates from knocking enemies out of my patches.  That final fact really kills the set for me and it will kill the set for others as soon as they start playing it in a team setting.

[ScarySai]

What's tragic about that, is control sets already struggle to really have a place in a team setting. I don't understand why the guys behind axe and energy melee are being so scared of making this set good.