Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Psyonico]

I'm going to throw out there that (and I may be the only one) I'm happy with how Arsenal Control has turned out.  I haven't tested it with the "wet" mechanic yet, but the other testing I have done, and knowing that sleep grenade was reverted to a pulsing patch, means that the set is in a pretty good place IMO.

 

It's it top of its class? No, but it appears somewhere in the middle, which is fine by me.

[Cyclone Jack]

Ugh, I wish this set didn't feel so horrible to level.  Its like you're going out of your way to make the clunkiest set to level, that eventually turns into something decent once you get it fully slotted, if you can slog through it.  I love the concept, but the execution is just...not great.

 

I'm not sure what else I can say, as it seems that this experiment is going to go through as is.  Hopefully it is well-received, but I'll be passing on it initially.  Maybe we'll see some future patches that fix things up once the HC team are able to see how it performs over time.

[Booper]

38 minutes ago, Dispari said:

So you're going to add floating text for a status effect to sets like Water Blast that don't even use said status effect and have no context for, so a different person on the team can know they're going to get an effect they probably don't even know about unless they carefully read the power description since they otherwise have no way to generate or use it?

 

...Okay.

I never said how we were going to fix it. The point that was raised was how would players be notified if a target is wet or not. That needs to be discussed internally.

[Arcadio]

I'm not sure how much this has been mentioned this thread but I severely don't like smoke canister's interaction with domination. Dominators have no lines of defense outside of control. The strength of the control should not be random ever. Dominators are over cautiously balanced IMO.

[WindDemon21]

Also, why bother even changing the name of the gun drone, when the tri-cannon is still just the same thing and is absolutely god awful. As mentioned, it needs to spurt out several of them, or fix it's attacks to beam-style and give it more attacks. Single shot, Lancer shot, Disintegrate, and cutting beam.

 

Or if keeping as it is with the chain gun, add a fast recharging shorter cone full auto something like 10s/40ft/45degrees with damage balanced around that, and slug and disorienting shot/beanbag.

[Booper]

1 minute ago, Arcadio said:

I'm not sure how much this has been mentioned this thread but I severely don't like smoke canister's interaction with domination. Dominators have no lines of defense outside of control. The strength of the control should not be random ever. Dominators are over cautiously balanced IMO.

Can you clarify, is that comment based on the recent changes in Build 3 or from prior testing? There was a fix in this build to Domination, so I want to know where the problem lies.

[Vinceq98]

 

44 minutes ago, Dispari said:

So you're going to add floating text for a status effect to sets like Water Blast that don't even use said status effect and have no context for, so a different person on the team can know they're going to get an effect they probably don't even know about unless they carefully read the power description since they otherwise have no way to generate or use it?

 

...Okay.

 

Literally trolling a new mechanic just so you can say I gave the community what they were asking for. <insert meme here>

Just scrap the damn immobilize then, your obviously soo against it. Buff up the slows to the max. I better see the mobs barely getting out of the patches because the sets inherent -run speed and slow debuffs are so strong we dont  even need the immobilize. Also buff  the knockdown patch to be bonfire pre nerf.  The mobs should flop like a fish out of water.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

So you're going to add floating text for a status effect to sets like Water Blast that don't even use said status effect and have no context for, so a different person on the team can know they're going to get an effect they probably don't even know about unless they carefully read the power description since they otherwise have no way to generate or use it?

 

...Okay.

And all of this to trigger an immob on a mediocre ice slick clone.

 

I believe Arcadio is referring to the fact that smoke cann's domination isn't an 100% chance to trigger, assuming that remains unchanged.

Edited February 1 by ScarySai

[Riverdusk]

I kind of like the idea of the 'wet' mechanic adding a bit of flavor.

 

However, sending this out without defining or listing what "wet" means and then telling us "figure it out" reminds me a little too much of the early days of the game where they didn't want to give us damage numbers or any power details to "preserve the mystery".  It does not inspire good feelings or fond memories.

 

It also just makes it hard to even discuss it for those of us that don't have time to go testing every single power combo. Like if true as someone here mentioned that freezing rain counts, but sleet doesn't?  Why?  They are basically synonyms in name and in power effects.

 

Also, water assault for doms when? 😄

[Rand0lk]

I believe Devs wanted to offer a whole new set with new mechanics instead of the usual stuff. Smoke can is a good and somewhat functional test. But that ended with "Wet". 😓

[Riverdusk]

5 hours ago, Cyclone Jack said:

Define "wet", because none of the Ice or Water based power sets mention wet in their powers.

 

Tested alongside: 

Cold Domination: Infrigidate, Benumb, Sleet, Heat Loss

Icy Assault: All Powers

 

Nothing seemed to interact with it.

 

Thanks for doing some hunting.

 

I'd vote for at least one power in ice assault to trigger wet or doms really have no way to trigger it with any combo?  Maybe frost breath as the most obvious.

[ApocalypsePlease]

I don’t know if this is as intended, but I’ve noticed that the sleep grenade cloud vanishes if I kill the target I placed it on. If that is intended, it really reduces the effectiveness of the power. I also noticed my target didn’t fall asleep (but they were a ghost) unless domination procced on them. I also noticed that it was doing that without my having pushed the domination button?

 

edit: upon further playtesting, I’ve noticed the sleep grenade patch actually vanishes when the body of the target it was triggered on despawns. Kind of like darkest night and other things like it. While this is clever, I feel like it makes it a bit inconsistent as a number of enemies simply vanish upon death. 

Edited February 1 by ApocalypsePlease

[Arcadio]

1 hour ago, Booper said:

Can you clarify, is that comment based on the recent changes in Build 3 or from prior testing? There was a fix in this build to Domination, so I want to know where the problem lies.

I think it was build 2 that the 25% chance for double magnitude while in domination

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, ApocalypsePlease said:

edit: upon further playtesting, I’ve noticed the sleep grenade patch actually vanishes when the body of the target it was triggered on despawns. Kind of like darkest night and other things like it. While this is clever, I feel like it makes it a bit inconsistent as a number of enemies simply vanish upon death. 

My guess is this is not intentional, might want to put it in the bug report forum.

[Lazarillo]

5 hours ago, Booper said:

Oil Slick Arrow

I'mma just note...the same power that IIRC, it was this team that changed to make it so that any damage could trigger it rather than only specific types, because the old way was too restrictive and semi-unintuitive?

 

'cause I'm pretty sure that wasn't a think back in the game's original lifetime.

[naraganeun]

Was able to solo Arachnos with an Ars/Cold controller +4/8x post build 3. 

I really enjoy the "combo field finisher" effect it reminds me of GW2 blast field finishers:
1. Sleep Grenade + Smoke Canister = double pulsing sleep + confuse  ⚠️Confuse does not seem to be enhanceable-- neither the first nor subsequent applications
2. Sleet + Liquid Nitrogen = double pulsing knockdown + immob ⚠️ Sleet is not applying Wet, but it should because sleet is a slushy of rain and hail
3. Flash Bang + Fissure(+FF proc) = stun stacking

This set can create 3 fields of CC to cover a large area of mez. Confuse/dettogle zone, stun zone, and KB+immob zone. Similar to Earth Control-- trading hold field for confuse field.

I'm a fan of the Wet idea. But I'm worried there are not enough sets to synergize with it. Perhaps the field could check if a mob has passed a -runspeed/-flyspeed threshold to freeze their... mobility appendages? That way powerful slows like those found in Time Manipulation or Ice Melee can contribute.

Edited February 2 by naraganeun

[LastHumanSoldier]

So has anyone compiled all the ways to make your enemies Wet* yet?


*Kinda feel dirty saying this lol.

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

47 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

So has anyone compiled all the ways to make your enemies Wet* yet?
*Kinda feel dirty saying this lol.

 

Maybe the name and the conditional triggers could be re-considered?

For example, perhaps any power that would soak somebody with water can trigger the "soaked" condition. This nomenclature is intuitive and not quite as obviously sexually suggestive as "wet." Also, establishing a "soaked" condition perhaps leads to a narrower and probably easier-to-visualize boundary between powers that should or should not trigger the "soaked" condition than would be true for a "wet" condition (the term "wet" suggests a lower bar for power inclusion than "soaked" would suggest). 

Edited February 2 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Tatterhood]

In case anyone was wondering, standing neck-deep in water does not count as being wet.

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Maybe the name and the conditional triggers could be re-considered?

For example, perhaps any power that would soak somebody with water can trigger the "soaked" condition. This nomenclature is intuitive and not quite as obviously sexually suggestive as "wet." Also, establishing a "soaked" condition perhaps leads to a narrower and probably easier-to-visualize boundary between powers that should or should not trigger the "soaked" condition than would be true for a "wet" condition (the term "wet" suggests a lower bar for power inclusion than "soaked" would suggest). 

 

Good point, but I have also seen wet condition used in other games (divinity original sin 1&2 immediately comes to mind and I know there are others).  I consider it pretty standard myself.  Also, considering the other controversial power name introduced in this issue, I didn't even think twice about this one.

[Indystruck]

Important news flash: Any equivalent term to "wet" is definitely being used in current practice in the same manner as you would use "wet". 

[Cheli]

So the reason folks were given for why the devs can't just copy-paste an AOE immo from another set with a different animation over to Arsenal Control is that the set is just too far along development to make that change, but not far enough along that they can program in a conditional immobilize effect that then requires them to go through and flag who knows how many dozens of powers as triggering a 'wet' condition? Or was this already in the code not being used or something? None of this makes very much sense.

 

I understand not wanting to play to the meta, or add a set that's just copy-paste of the other control sets with a few minor tweaks. I LIKE sets that are a bit weird and different, and I like the idea of power combos (preferably ones you can trigger yourself) but the "immo -> containment" loop for controllers isn't going to go away because you just stubbornly refuse to add any more aoe immo powers. If you're dead-set on killing the reliance on aoe immos, either add something significant to sets without one to compensate for the lack of consistency on containment or change containment. 

[Falchoin]

Why not let the beta testers know which powers currently make enemies wet? If most folks don't read the patch notes, they sure as heck won't be reading the beta forums. So your "secret" should be safe. At this point, it just feels antagonistic to those of us spending our time testing and trying to help.

 

That said, I feel like this 'wet' status is opening a whole can of worms the devs probably don't want to deal with. Folks clamoring for <insert X power here> to be added to the wetlist, or removed from it. Folks asking for 'wet' to actually do something on its own like enhancing electric powers and cold powers, while possibly lowering the effect of fire powers... because it makes sense. Then there'd be the people getting upset others are making enemies 'wet' because it lowers their own character's effectiveness. And the min/maxers only wanting to team with highly synergistic builds that can most effectively make use of enemy wetness. More people wanting other random effects to be added, such as 'burn', 'freezing', 'poisoned', etc. Some may even want certain statuses to interact so that a 'burn' effect removes a 'wet' to make a steamy cloud, reducing enemy tohit because of obscured vision... which could lead to more upset people because they need enemies to be 'wet' for their powers to work at peak efficiency.

 

Also, the color tinted smoke grenade AoE still greatly obscures vision as pointed out earlier in the thread.

[OverkillEngine]

While I am not married to the meta of requiring an AoE Immob (I play Illusion on Controllers and Doms a lot), having the design of a powerset require another player or powerset to unlock its full potential while (more than likely from the behavior we've seen so far), still being dinged in the design budget for that potential even if those conditions aren't consistently fulfill-able by all players using that set, is inherently hostile design. Combo interactions while certainly neat, really need to be strictly internal to each set if possible unless there is an intent to rewrite every set in the game to have similar functions for parity and consistency. Otherwise for fairness you have to make them so weak and ignorable as to be a pointless investment of design budget and time.

Edited February 2 by OverkillEngine

[Carnifax]

12 hours ago, Dispari said:

 

Also is this the only set that triggers an effect based on a condition that the set itself cannot create?

Trick Arrow still can't light its own Oil Slicks, it's why my Grav/TA takes Mu epic. But "fire or energy damage" isn't too hard to figure out. No clue what "wet" means. Cold damage? Something new added to some powers?