Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[Rand0lk]

8 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

3: Kill cloaking device for an aoe immob.

Nope. Just, no.

 

It's so thematically good AND useful. Kill AoE sleep instead.

[UltraAlt]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, The Curator said:

Flash Bang  Disorient, -To Hit

 

Flash Bang is to bright for my eyes.

I can't change it so that it isn't eye painful.

I know it is "flash" but how about we give it a dark setting?

I'd prefer to not have to "noparticles 1" because of my own characters powers.

 

 

 

 

[SuperBear]

My thoughts on Controller primary

Liquid Nitrogen is a click and target power - should be more like Ignite from Assault Rifle. Dislike having to target the ground.

Smoke Canister - same as above. This should be a power like Tear Gas, from the same set, is.

I do like that Gun Drone is a perma-pet. But it needs more attacks. Just the one is weak. Right now it's more like a floating fire imp.

Seeker Drones. Possibly these could be more like Haunt from Dark Control? Just a crazy idea/alternative.

I paired it with Traps and, OMG, way too many "click the ground powers". 

In the heat of battle, I could see this set becoming a bit frustrating as you try to find the ground, or are flying/hovering too high to target the ground instead of the enemies.

 

Just for reference, when I think of a Controller, I think of Gravity Control. Tab Target, Click power, go, go, go.

Arsenal Control seems very tedious and not very much like the Controller powers we are "used" to. 

Nothing wrong with changing things up a bit, but this is too much in my opinion. 

In it's current state, I'd hesitate to take this power set. 

 

PS - Cloaking Device - thumbs up!  Temporal Bomb - thumbs up!  Murky Cloud - thumbs up!

 

 

 

Edited January 23 by SuperBear
additional thoughts

[WindDemon21]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, The Curator said:

New Powerset - Arsenal Control

 

New primary for Controllers and Dominators

• Armed with a state-of-the-art multipurpose assault rifle, you are able to deliver a wide variety of payloads to control your enemies and render them incapable of responding.

 

 

Ok, kinda like the theme, some powers seem ok, but some big things stand out.

 

Hands down, move the ST hold to tier 2. This is TERRIBLE design to have it beyond that. It should be the first power pick you get mostly (besides some taking more damaging powers) but in lieu of this, grav and mind also really need this fixed as well. It just leads to outside of obviously screwing up newbies, but just leads to terrible forced power picks when everyone always does, and/or should take the tier 1 hold on controllers.

 

Liquid nitrogen: Like ice slick and ice patch, please fix these powers to accept slow and knockback enhancements. The slow obviously for obvious reasons, but the kb as well for those who wish to over-mag it to do knockback. Yes it's much less desired but there are situations where one might prefer this. Such as swapping for this for certain tfs and such to play "keep away" etc. It's there, we should be able to slot for both slow and KB and use those sets as well.

 

Tranquilizer: It's not sleeping at all fyi. Edit, the bug is that the damage is applying after the sleep, so it auto-wakes itself up.

 

Cryo freeze ray: fairly standard, love the 3-bolt animation of the projectile. likewise could we get a more noticeable projectile for tranquilizer? I'm not seeing anything.

 

Next, cloaking device is a really poor choice to add in here. It effectively doesn't do much and takes up MUCH more needed spots for the aoe immobilize which should 100% be in the set with an aoe stun, and also any type of confuse power which will cause the mobs to knock each other around too. This is a disaster waiting to happen, and really screws over controllers as well who need the aoe immobilize to set up containment easier, do damage, and to proc stuff to help out too. Get rid of cloaking device for the aoe immobilize. I'd like to see a different immobilize than the standard web-nade though. Perhaps some sort of grenade that explodes with razor-wire that wraps around the enemies legs or something.

 

Aoe sleep, it's fine but should definitely be moved to tier 3 or even 4 (with aoe immob at tier 3),but otherwise the reproccing and slow helps it. Though aoe sleeps in general should start at mag 4 as well to do what they should be doing especially given how easy they break even if they reproc and always said they should all have some -damage to help this on teams too. This has -rech so i guess is some tradeoff but with the value isn't a super impact)

 

The confuse canister, interesting power, but yeah it has to actually be effective enough to matter otherwise it just really falls short. Having confuse is good, and don't mind that it basically doesn't exist outside of the location field that's created, BUT this also depends on the set having an aoe immobilize to keep them there and to stop them from knocking themselves out of the area, and if wanting to do something different here, especially versus higher levels that -to hit should at least be bumped up to 15%, and also seems like it's needs a slight end reduction as well to maybe around 12 end versus the 16.64. Maybe on the knock issue, it might be interesting if this power somehow DID it's own -KB like aoe immobilizes do, but that just wouldn't really make sense thematically lol. I'd also suggest bumping up the rech/duration to 60s rech and 45s duration at least.

 

The Gun Drone. just WOW is this a terrible port, is this a bug? For it to only have the one attack, no aoe, and a very small radius taunt which won't matter most of the time because the mobs will be so spread out anyway. Please just ditch this or revamp it completely. We can't even double stack it like you can the blaster version. Maybe if when you cast it it would cast out 3 of them (2 as is wouldn't cut it for a controller pet) it would then be justified, but as is it's a really crappy pet.

 

Overall, the theme is good, and some of the powers are interesting and I generally like it! This definitely seems like a set more geared to dominators more than to controllers IMO. I like many others as well would prefer a more gadget-y animation for all the powers as the gun just doesn't fit most of them for what I'd want to really set it up for. Grenades, barb wire immobilizes etc. Since everything except tranquilizer and cryo freeze ray are basically some time of canister that explodes to cause an effect, I feel like this could be easily achieved to fit more themes. Especially on controllers the gun just doesn't seem to fit right to me.

 

So main points:

 

1. Swap the ST hold and the aoe Sleep

2. Swap cloaking device for aoe immobilize

3. Replace, or vastly boost gun drone, or set it to cast out 3 of them, or 2 somewhat more boosted. SOMETHING

 

Edited January 23 by WindDemon21

[TygerDarkstorm]

Tranquilizer does work... but it's so rare that it's not worth even trying to use it like the power description says; e.g., as a means of taking out one enemy temporarily. Basically, if you don't see orange numbers pop up when you use it, it slept the target instead. But it's so subtle that you may as well not even notice unless you're spending extra time looking for it.

 

Frankly, I hate having to choose between a single target sleep or AoE sleep as my first power pick. Both options are kind of sucky, and the sleep in Tranq is so low, my freaking origin taser was sleeping targets more regularly. Not to mention, the Tranq sleep in Arsenal is so not-obvious that you're just as likely to keep blasting the target rather than incapacitating it like you might be wanting to.

 

It also made for kind of a crappy level one power if you decide to take off and do missions/street sweeping right away instead of doing DFB/PI's/etc. as the sleep effect is rarely procs, Be prepared for lots of kiting those initial groups of Hellions for Matthew Habashy. I don't  recall feeling as weak on other troller primaries for this mission.

[ScarySai]

Even Mind doms don't really use mesmerize unless leveling, or they need to put an av down for a bit because they screwed up while soloing.

 

Dunno why we keep insisting on filling sets with sleep.

Edited January 23 by ScarySai

[WindDemon21]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Even Mind doms don't really use mesmerize unless leveling, or they need to put an av down for a bit because they screwed up while soloing.

 

Dunno why we keep insisting on filling sets with sleep.

I mean aoe sleeps are fine to exist with proper buffs, I don't actually mind this one as much since it reprocs and has that slow added, though still should be mag 4 and -damage IMO because on teams it still ends up doing next to nothing, but the single target sleep that breaks itself just seems really bad. Again, razor wire immobilize!

[WindDemon21]

Perhaps on the pet, in lieu of aoe immobilize as well, make it a melee pet, better for aggro anyway, but also has the pull in like sing (should be a little stronger esp if the set doesn't get an aoe immobilize instead of cloaking device), so it goes into the mob, and keeps pulling them closer into the sleep/kd/confuse fields. Maybe like a tractor beam that has tendrils or mechanical tentacles going to all the enemies that pulls them towards it and has claws like arachnos claws that attack the mobs when they get close?

 

Edit: maybe like a mechanical piece of coral/anemone? lol Just make sure the priority is for it to go into melee first but this should happen normally if it only has melee attacks, but then the set would need some kinda of -fly (could put in cryo freeze ray)) Or this could be the power instead of cloaking device and instead of an aoe immobilze just a pull in-taunt/debuff pet you place, and then remove the taunt from gun drone and just improve it to do more.

Edited January 23 by WindDemon21

[UltraAlt]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, The Curator said:

New Powerset - Arsenal Control

 

I'm working with Arsenal/Arsenal Doms so I'm going to post in both threads - at least to start - and then keep specifics of the sets to the on the individual threads.

 

Character 1) auto leveled up to like level 22. Set-up with mostly if not all SOs.

Ran a police scanner mission in Talos.

I didn't really get the flow of the game play. Their are a bunch of click on a target location powers, and I wasn't using them so much because I forgot to turn the difficulty up, was on a purple cave map, and just wasn't figuring when to use the different click on target location powers.

 

Character 2) Since I wasn't getting the flow of the set, I created a new character. Running x2 xp but leveling through game play. 

Ran the lake and the building behind it to get the first 4 levels without enhancements. It seemed easier than most sets.

[Tubalcain]

Cloaking is very useful for getting into position. The problem is you have to choose between the advantage of being unseen against having your gun happy pet out shooting everything in sight. It doesn't jive with the rest of the set.

[UltraAlt]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

On 11/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, The Curator said:

New Powerset - Arsenal Control

Expand  

 

I'm working with Arsenal/Arsenal Doms so I'm going to post in both threads - at least to start - and then keep specifics of the sets to the on the individual threads.

 

Character 1) I took Sleep Grenade instead of Tranquilizer on this one. It seemed to have a really long recharge time for a starting power. Based on the effect of the power, I can understand the recharge time, but, because of the recharge time, I don't think it should be a tier 2 power.

Cryo Freeze Ray - a hold is a hold. I didn't notice anything different about it.

Liquid Nitrogen - VFX is fine. 

Cloaking Device - Seems equivalent to https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Devices#Field_Operative. I'm not sure why this needs a different name, but then there are the variously named Scrapper taunts, so I guess a different name for flavor.

Smoke Canister - I would have liked to be able to color tint this one, but it's just too bright for me. I had to use the dark setting. I'm not sure if even used this power when I was running the mission I ran with it.

Flash Bang - as indicated previously, just too bright and has no dark option. I don't I even used this power in the mission I ran with it.

The one mission I ran so far with this character was a police scanner in Talos. it was set on flat, and I didn't need to use most of the click on spot powers in order to fairly easily complete the mission.

 

Character 2) Tranquilizer is a sleep power. However, it does not appear to auto hit. I'm assuming this is because it does damage. Bypassing Sleep Grenade for now because of the recharge time.

Cryo Freeze Ray - a hold is a hold. I didn't notice anything different about it.

 

 

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Tubalcain said:

Cloaking is very useful for getting into position. The problem is you have to choose between the advantage of being unseen against having your gun happy pet out shooting everything in sight. It doesn't jive with the rest of the set.

Illusion Control would have the same contradiction between stealth and pets, but Superior Invisibility is still quite popular.

[UltraAlt]

19 minutes ago, Tubalcain said:

Cloaking is very useful for getting into position. The problem is you have to choose between the advantage of being unseen against having your gun happy pet out shooting everything in sight. It doesn't jive with the rest of the set.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Devices has the same thing going on.

 

1) If the pet isn't out, don't drop it until you engage with a group.

2) It is out, try to watch the line-of-sight and use a ranged attack at max range to hopefully pull one at a time or Recall Target when around the corner from a mob.

[ScarySai]

7 hours ago, Rand0lk said:

It's so thematically good

Yeah, it's pretty on theme if you're rping as a garbage can.

 

Illusion is threat control, it makes sense for the caster to have invisibility and no root. Because a root would be detrimental to it, and invisibility allows it to set up the threat magnets without interference.

 

On a set with smoke grenade that desperately needs a means to keep things in its patches that aggro? No, it's not useful.

Edited January 24 by ScarySai

[Rand0lk]

2 hours ago, Tubalcain said:

Cloaking is very useful for getting into position. The problem is you have to choose between the advantage of being unseen against having your gun happy pet out shooting everything in sight. It doesn't jive with the rest of the set.

So is Illusion Control, where you have TWO stealth powers.

[SaxyGuitar]

I keep looking at these powers/stats on the character creation screen and I like the idea of how this set works as a sleep set. But getting pass basic sleep protection should be easy and I worry it will not. I also like how Stealth and Smoke Can work. I will test these at some point but messing with some of the other stuff 1st.

[Rand0lk]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Yeah, it's pretty on theme if you're rping as a garbage can.

 

Illusion is threat control, it makes sense for the caster to have invisibility and no root. Because a root would be detrimental to it, and invisibility allows it to set up the threat magnets without interference.

 

On a set with smoke grenade that desperately needs a means to keep things in its patches that aggro? No, it's not useful.

 

Honestly, I can live happily without your RPing Seal of Approval while buttstriking from stealth the whole Paragon City 24/7.

As I stated clearly above, I'm absolutely agree about the desperate need of an aoe imm, but not at the cost of cloaking device. Is it situational? Maybe? Would I pick it for my build? Hell yes, even as a simple LOTG mule. Get rid of sleep nade instead, which I'm sure I would not ever pick.

[Frosticus]

Sleep Nade

reactive radial (75% dot chance) 

This is just to show how quickly it puts minions/luts back to sleep.

After testing I'm not "too" worried about containment damage on a controller for builds that aren't super dot heavy. At least against minions/luts... 

 

The sleep patches can stack if you have enough recharge, which can help with protracted fights*. Keeping things in the patch doesn't always go smoothly vs larger spawns

*keep in mind the sleep patch will ignore player buffs like tactics, or any acc slotting that comes from ranged aoe sets. Sleep is autohit against common enemies, but AV's for instance require a tohit check.

 

Smoke Cannister

essentially the same as sleep nade. Covers mininons/luts effectively

Stacks on second cast tagging bosses.

Procs seem to have no effect. I have not seen either confuse damage procs fire yet.

 

Even cons are easy.

Yes. You need to slot both sleep and smoke for their respective mez if you want them to work consistently against higher cons. 71% enhanced confuse was allowing a +4 to break the confuse easily, but seemed to consistently confuse +3's without releasing them. Tested vs Knives of Artemis which I don't believe have any confuse protection. Unenhanced sleep nade barely slowed down +4 minions as they break out of the sleep without issue.

Keeping higher con enemies in the patches is like herding cats as they have much higher slow resistances. 

Edited January 24 by Frosticus

[Shin Magmus]

Not much to do now but wait, although I guess I can also mention that removing the Sleeps doesn't mean they can't still have a Tranq Dart.  Even my idea for a tech control set had one: the power was just much more focused around dealing toxic dmg and applying useful debuffs like -Recharge and -Regen.  This set could have a ST Immob, AoE Immob, and a reworked Tranq Dart if they just drop the AoE Sleep and Cloaking Device.

 

I don't actually have a problem with Cloaking Device being in the set, compared to some others here.   It's just that it sort-of makes Illusion Control less special because that's the Stealth Control set and it's part of the identity. 

[biostem]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:19 PM, BurtHutt said:

I was thinking this myself...from a concept/theme perspective...it's a really odd bunch of powers for a gun set.

Why's that?

Edited January 24 by biostem

[biostem]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:20 PM, SuperPlyx said:

Shouldn't a gun powerset have at least one power that shoots bullets? I know it's a control set but you made it a gun.

Yeah - they should have added a "pin-down" type power where you fire a volley to immobilize your target(s) in place.

[biostem]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:43 AM, The Curator said:

  Gun Drone  Build Gun Drone: Ranged, DMG(Lethal)

As others have pointed out, it's too similar to the blaster pet found in devices.  What if you basically turned it into a less steampunk and more conventional arms version of a Nemesis Jaeger?  Heck, even just recolored slightly to grey/silver it could work really well.  Another approach could be to allow the power to spawn 2 gun drones, and use the dual pistol ammo types to give each a little flavor.

[biostem]

5 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Cloaking Device - Seems equivalent to https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Devices#Field_Operative. I'm not sure why this needs a different name

I don't think it grants the extra regen and recovery like field operative does...

[Starhammer]

Spent all day yesterday tinkering/playing/respeccing/playing some more with an Arse/Arse and I did eventually find a build that's enjoyable, at least at endgame, fully spec'd.

Still some problems though.

The AOE sleep is... ok.It's not great, and not terrible. A Chance to Heal proc ended up going in it, worked pretty well for making up for a lack of personal healing otherwise.

I hate Tranquilizer. It's damage is subpar and it's mez is undependable at the very best. I would gladly trade this for even a non-damage ST web grenade (Though a damaging ST Net immob would actually be worth getting excited about).

Cryo Freeze ray functions well enough, but I despise the long lasting afterglow. Please find any way to get rid of that (Besides nuking all the fx on screen with noparticles 1). I'd pay actual cash money to see my earlier mentioned idea of having the option to choose from significantly different hold effects get implemented. That could make all the difference in how well this control set may suit numerous different character concepts.

Liquid Nitrogen is cool (NPI), and in a pinch makes a viable replacement for an AOE Immob, but yeah, it needs to accept more enhancement options as mentioned above.

I like the Cloaking Device. If I want stealth, it's nice to not have to dip into a pool for it. It also makes a good container for many Def procs, since there's no way to make such low combat +Def much better. I wouldn't mind the end cost going down a bit, or getting something else added to it, like maybe a perception buff.

Flash Bang is ok. I use it quite a bit, but I agree it would be nice for the effects to be toned down. The -def/-tohit is good, but it feels like it really should have a significant -perception component as well. I know that's redundant with the canister attack, but there's nothing wrong with a little redundancy, and it gives multiple routes to this effect if someone only wants to use one or the other. I'd also like to see it do a little damage.... not a lot, but just enough to allow an Overwhelming Force KB proc.

I like the Gun Drone. It's my buddy. I wish we could customize the paint job on these guys. Not just colors, but maybe camo patterns or add a chest symbol to both sides, or something like that... down the line of course.

The set really needs a net gun 😛

[StarkWhite]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

As others have pointed out, it's too similar to the blaster pet found in devices.  What if you basically turned it into a less steampunk and more conventional arms version of a Nemesis Jaeger?  Heck, even just recolored slightly to grey/silver it could work really well.  Another approach could be to allow the power to spawn 2 gun drones, and use the dual pistol ammo types to give each a little flavor.

It actually used to summon two drones, but that was apparently causing some issues.