Focused Feedback: High-Level Council Revamp

[Coyotedancer]

24 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Is it reasonable to tell someone that if they run in to problems, in an MMO, to either turn down the difficulty or team with another person?

 

Yes. It is entirely reasonable to tell them that.

 

I was soloing with a level 40 Sentinel with even level SOs at +1 x4. Anyone who solos at +0 x1 isn't going to notice the difference when this goes live, except that the Galaxy dude now has a bubble around him for no apparent reason.

 

Asked and answered. Objection overruled!

 

No one has granted you the authority to squash other players' concerns, dude.... And there *are* obviously some people who are concerned by this change.  Their opinions are as much a part of this discussion as yours, rather you agree with them or not.  Those concerns are why we need to be pretty careful about testing the revamp with everything and the kitchen sink... high-power, low-power and the whole nine yards. 

 

Personally, I can see why the people who just want some mindless smash-fodder are unhappy. As I said, even at +1 there's a notable difference in difficulty with these new mobs. It's not more than either of us are comfortable with at that level, but I can still see where they're coming from. Maybe you can't... but hey, we don't all have to agree.

 

What we don't get to do is tell other people, essentially, that their Objections (rather opinions or concerns-) are invalid just because we don't like them. Judge Joe can take that mallet and shove it up his nose.  😝

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by Coyotedancer

[Sovera]

That said it's very much in the name. It's a difficulty setting meant for... four people. They are alone tackling it. And in SOs. Seems good to me.

 

If anything it gives them an incentive to gear their character up in order to be able to tackle x6 and x8, and eventually +2 and +3.

[Coyotedancer]

For what it's worth, I pick x4 for testing mostly because it's the balance point between getting to see some decent spawn diversity and still keeping individual groups to a relatively manageable size. It's a practical choice as much as anything.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by Coyotedancer

[PeregrineFalcon]

53 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

No one has granted you the authority to squash other players' concerns, dude....

Do you really think I don't know that?

 

It was a joke, dude. Lighten up Francis.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Do you really think I don't know that?

 

It was a joke, dude. Lighten up Francis.

 

 

Dudette... and my middle actually IS Frances. No joke. 🤣

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

 

If you have a problem with the new Council, you can change difficulty settings. Because that's what they are for. People who want the Council to not be complete pushovers do not have the option to go to higher difficulty than +4/x8.

please tell me what setting reverts all the changes. these changes affect the base identity of the group. They take away a group that was the basis for the less challenging game play. it is possible to add, without taking away

[StarkWhite]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

please tell me what setting reverts all the changes. these changes affect the base identity of the group. They take away a group that was the basis for the less challenging game play. it is possible to add, without taking away

The base identity of the Council, such as it is, is an all over the place "vampires, werewolves, robots, supersoldiers, aliens, explosions."

That has not changed.

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Yes. A non-50 can turn down the difficulty. But is that actually enough to make them manageable? Is it reasonable to tell a soloing 46 on SOs and a few procs that they're stuck at.... say. +0x1 with no bosses? Maybe? That's something worth asking.

Ok, you said level 46 so I specifically tested it again at level 46. MA/SR Scrapper. All even level SOs except for 2 Performance Shifter Procs and a Miracle +15% recovery in Health because I'm so @&$(%_* tired of dealing with endurance issues.

 

+0x0 I ran through it and crushed Archon Lucretia on autopilot.

+1x2 The Galaxy Lts were tough and kept rezzing. I kept trying to finish them off with Crane Kick to see if they died while away from it would prevent them from rezzing the way I can with Super Stunners. Then I ran into Archon Lucretia again and he seemed to be just another named Galaxy.

+1x4 So many Galaxies I finally ran out of greens and died. I could have stocked up on purples and greens and finished the mission but I decided not to bother.

 

Their extra abilities aren't a problem. The problem is that the new enemies have so many Hit Points that fighting them gets boring.

[golstat2003]

13 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

please tell me what setting reverts all the changes. these changes affect the base identity of the group. They take away a group that was the basis for the less challenging game play. it is possible to add, without taking away

 

They should add a setting that allows you to go -1 to your level.

[PeregrineFalcon]

13 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

They should add a setting that allows you to go -1 to your level.

I agree.

 

[golstat2003]

14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I agree.

 

 

And I had forgotten this already exists. There you go.

 

Honestly when soloing anything I never go above +1 maximum. It's only on the rare occasions that I lead teams that I go higher as the team's speed and sturdiness permits. And honestly high level teams will still be steam rolling Council. Emphasis on TEAMS.

[Tigraine]

If high level teams are "steamrolling" Council, and solo play is "no different," then what exactly is the point of this update?

It seems that the overall effect is to just introduce new annoyances and tedium.

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

If high level teams are "steamrolling" Council, and solo play is "no different," then what exactly is the point of this update?

It seems that the overall effect is to just introduce new annoyances and tedium.

Solo play is different if you increase the difficulty. It's basically the same if you run on +0x1 and I think that's the point. To allow them to still be soloed while making the higher difficulty levels actually difficult.

 

And teams of Incarnates are pretty much going to steamroll anything outside of Incarnate Trials. Nothing you can really do about that without adding a "Hard Mode" or "Incarnate Mode" to normal mission difficulty settings.

[ivanhedgehog]

just did +0x1 on a fire/em blaster. spent a lot of time stunned/held/immobbed etc. spent a lot of time healing between groups. not the same I need to try this on a defender

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Tried a PI radio mission on a grav / savage / fire dominator at +2x8. Had no idea what changes had happened to council, went in blind. 

A level 53 eclipse galaxy archon rezzed after I downed him, doing a lot of damage. He landed what may have been the warshade human form single target hold just after that and a lot of noticeably impactful DOT damage ticks started. Used blood craze, which is a really hefty heal, and started fighing with that boss. At some point the boss then did 766 damage in one hit, and about 340ish on another hit a few seconds later. Some other damage was mixed in and my dominator was down. 

It was such a sharp step upward from other council mobs that it was a bit confusing. It may have boss level hit points, but it hits more like an EB would usually be expected hit. 

Cool. 🙂👍

Edited February 3 by EnjoyTheJourney

[drbuzzard]

I took a elec/enaergy stalker for a drive and tried out a few things. The build was level 50+3/ thoroughly decked out as one might expect. I went to PI and started up the old radio.

 

First selection of missions was arachnos-carnies-carnies. This was a bit annoying since I wanted to try the new Council and CoT. However I said no big deal, I'm trying electric melee with Thuderstrike update, so why not? 

 

I fought my way through the carnies at +2x8 and it wasn't over the top. Fought my way through without any real 'oh shit!' moments.

 

The radio finally cooperated, and I went into a warehouse of council. After carnies, I figured 'how bad could it be?'. Bad. Granted energy aura has a bit of an issue with negative energy, but still it was bad even fighting the rest. The wolves were really durable even when toned down from boss to lieutenant (I didn't set that up in difficulty). I eventually got offed by the council, and had to visit the hospital to have by features restored to intact. I went back in and used some incarnate powers which I'd rather skipped and cleared the place. 

 

The contrast with carnies who are universally seen as being tough was stark. Carnies were still slightly tough. You had to take out the bosses fast, and they could hurt you. The council was downright rough. You had to be on your toes. I ran into a concentration of nebulas and that was it. 

 

On live, council is the running joke in PI. Everyone can just invite newly minted heroes from AP and a single 50 can drag them over a +4x8 map of council and basically PL all the lowbies. That will no longer be the case. You better have half the team be of significant level and bring some support. 

[Arcadio]

I've been soloing some council radios and I noticed most of the bosses you'll have to defeat multiple times. Is it possible to make the vampire bosses give exp on transformation? Between them full healing on transformation, the galaxies full healing most of the time with stygian circle, and then self rezzing on top of that fighting them can be really cumbersome without hight ST damage. I don't mind them healing and coming back, I just wish they were as rewarding as freaks to fight.

[Lazarillo]

3 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Is it possible to make the vampire bosses give exp on transformation?

Do they not? 'cause I'm pretty sure other similar sorts of mobs do on live. For example, if Hercules Titans combine into a Zeus, you'll get XP for one or both (depending on whether you damaged them) and I could swear Warwolf-transforming Council do it as well.  It may not say it's for the defeat, though.  There'll just be a notice of receive an extra couple thousand XP or whatever in the log.

[Arcadio]

30 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Do they not? 'cause I'm pretty sure other similar sorts of mobs do on live. For example, if Hercules Titans combine into a Zeus, you'll get XP for one or both (depending on whether you damaged them) and I could swear Warwolf-transforming Council do it as well.  It may not say it's for the defeat, though.  There'll just be a notice of receive an extra couple thousand XP or whatever in the log.

No I don't think they do. I just got back on to double check.

Edit: Nevermind, it looks like they do on the bosses but not the Lts. I like the difficulty they're at

Edited February 5 by Arcadio

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I took a elec/enaergy stalker for a drive and tried out a few things. The build was level 50+3/ thoroughly decked out as one might expect. I went to PI and started up the old radio.

 

First selection of missions was arachnos-carnies-carnies. This was a bit annoying since I wanted to try the new Council and CoT. However I said no big deal, I'm trying electric melee with Thuderstrike update, so why not? 

 

I fought my way through the carnies at +2x8 and it wasn't over the top. Fought my way through without any real 'oh shit!' moments.

 

The radio finally cooperated, and I went into a warehouse of council. After carnies, I figured 'how bad could it be?'. Bad. Granted energy aura has a bit of an issue with negative energy, but still it was bad even fighting the rest. The wolves were really durable even when toned down from boss to lieutenant (I didn't set that up in difficulty). I eventually got offed by the council, and had to visit the hospital to have by features restored to intact. I went back in and used some incarnate powers which I'd rather skipped and cleared the place. 

 

The contrast with carnies who are universally seen as being tough was stark. Carnies were still slightly tough. You had to take out the bosses fast, and they could hurt you. The council was downright rough. You had to be on your toes. I ran into a concentration of nebulas and that was it. 

 

On live, council is the running joke in PI. Everyone can just invite newly minted heroes from AP and a single 50 can drag them over a +4x8 map of council and basically PL all the lowbies. That will no longer be the case. You better have half the team be of significant level and bring some support. 

 If a stalker at full kit can only run at 2/8, then a controller? A MM?

 

You can't make everything universally the same difficulty, some ATs are naturally going to be more powerful, and that's OK. I get there's a desire to adjust for the power creep, but....

 

The council are way over tuned. It's a dreary slog forcing play on even the most resilient ATa down to MUCH lower diff.

 

Needs to be dialed back, the new lts and bosses reduced in the "meat bag" area, only one spawn of their summons per group, less of a chance to rez, less prevalence of neg energy, because every set is weak to it (nearly). Unless you're going to buff ene/neg ene res and def by 20% across the board.

 

Sure give them new kit, but like I said, some of us continued to play because of.         Fun.

 

Now, not so fun.

 

Ps. If you plan to make normal play 0/0 or 2/4 at most, then you'll need to buff rewards so the old 4/8 is the new 2/4.

Edited February 5 by SwitchFade

[ViridianDev]

Addressing multiple recent concerns brought up around reward; PI powerleveling radio teams and lowbies were absolutely considered during these updates. Resurrections grant full xp for each defeat, netting additional xp per spawn, and transformed Nightwolves and Nyctwolves have increased reward scale, to account that the pre-transformation Vortex soldier or Vampyr does not grant xp.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I took a elec/enaergy stalker for a drive and tried out a few things. The build was level 50+3/ thoroughly decked out as one might expect. I went to PI and started up the old radio.

 

First selection of missions was arachnos-carnies-carnies. This was a bit annoying since I wanted to try the new Council and CoT. However I said no big deal, I'm trying electric melee with Thuderstrike update, so why not? 

 

I fought my way through the carnies at +2x8 and it wasn't over the top. Fought my way through without any real 'oh shit!' moments.

 

The radio finally cooperated, and I went into a warehouse of council. After carnies, I figured 'how bad could it be?'. Bad. Granted energy aura has a bit of an issue with negative energy, but still it was bad even fighting the rest. The wolves were really durable even when toned down from boss to lieutenant (I didn't set that up in difficulty). I eventually got offed by the council, and had to visit the hospital to have by features restored to intact. I went back in and used some incarnate powers which I'd rather skipped and cleared the place. 

 

The contrast with carnies who are universally seen as being tough was stark. Carnies were still slightly tough. You had to take out the bosses fast, and they could hurt you. The council was downright rough. You had to be on your toes. I ran into a concentration of nebulas and that was it. 

 

On live, council is the running joke in PI. Everyone can just invite newly minted heroes from AP and a single 50 can drag them over a +4x8 map of council and basically PL all the lowbies. That will no longer be the case. You better have half the team be of significant level and bring some support. 

 

Or simply drop the difficulty if you want to steam roll. At +0 x8 teams will still steam roll. You don't have to play at +4 x8 if your team can't handle it. That's true even now.

[Shin Magmus]

5 hours ago, ViridianDev said:

Addressing multiple recent concerns brought up around reward; PI powerleveling radio teams and lowbies were absolutely considered during these updates. Resurrections grant full xp for each defeat, netting additional xp per spawn, and transformed Nightwolves and Nyctwolves have increased reward scale, to account that the pre-transformation Vortex soldier or Vampyr does not grant xp.

This actually incentivizes me to fight them more.  I have a question though: how much does this change the sub-group of Dimensional/Rocket Council who spawn on some PI story arc missions and who are different from the "regular" Council who spawn on PI Radio missions?

 

Spawnsets are something I genuinely don't really understand and never looked into, except noting that random grey-conning enemies sometimes appear in otherwise even-conning enemy groups because of spawnset issues.

[Seed22]

I tested these guys back on CB on +1x8 on..I think an arsenal/arsenal dom, and it went alright. But I can definitely see the annoyance factor. I hate that a once turn your brain off and have a beer/joint group got turned into this but I’ll just keep making builds that can solo as I refuse to team for something as trivial as radios

[drbuzzard]

OK, since the stalker was a bit of an edge case (not exactly the most popular AT) I decided let's try driving a tank through the shiny new CoT. Tank build is radiation armor/dark melee. The goal was first to attain 90% resistance to as much as possible (basically all but cold and psi). Then I chased recharge hard to get soul drain up as often as possible to be a self buffer. Given that I had the purple tanker proc in place and used it a lot, I was likely 90% resistant to everything pretty often. 

 

I had run this tank on a LGTF 1*  a while back, but I was rushed to finish the build as people were waiting. I was able to respec and get things done right this time, so it was quite optimized and fully decked out in t4 incarnate. 

 

Running radios in PI I eventually pulled up some council. First council run was on +4x8 no bosses. This wasn't a huge amount of trouble since council could only do damage I had 90% against. Yes, the debuffs, especially slows, got annoying, and it was a bit close at times since the heals were recharging pretty slow. 

 

I will say the nebulas using more of the warshade tool kit is a nice touch. Those bastards would just use stygian circle and they went from almost dead to full. 

 

Next mission I turned bosses on and while it got a little more hairy, it was still quite doable. Radiation armor happened to line up fairly well with the tricks they were pulling, so it wasn't arduous. Compared to live, they were a more rocky road than the freshly paved highway that we normally steamroll. 

 

I don't know that they need any more tuning since it was an alignment of optimal tank for the case. Many other builds would have a lot rougher time. 

Edited February 5 by drbuzzard