Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[DemonSeed]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

If Warshades and PB get to be across multiple roles then Masterminds need to cross ranged damage, tank, and support. 

At the very least damage and support. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

If Warshades and PB get to be across multiple roles then Masterminds need to cross ranged damage, tank, and support. 

Why? Masterminds are already classed as a support class in this game.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Granted, I have no real skin in the game.  This won't influence my teaming habits one whit.  It just means sometimes I'll get an extra 2½ million influence on TFs, but with random mission-end rewards, that's already a thing. 

 

On the one hand, that in and of itself is kinda janky.  On the other, the amount of flak I've seen Defenders get for being "less damage" even in the face of their significantly meatier support, makes me think that if the intent is one for each, then putting Corruptors into the "ranged damage" category makes perfect sense, when that's how they're treated by many players.
 

 

My kinetics corruptors would like a word with you. 🤣

 

(Joke it's not that serious a system for me to care. As others have said it's just a nice minor reward. And the COV AT designs make getting this perfect . . . er difficult).

[Kai Moon]

Cross-referencing this with March 2020 AT frequency statistics (Level 50 Archetype Time Played excl Brute Fiery Aura, million character-hours) to identify potential chokepoints.

 

Tank	Tanker+Brute +PB+WS	2.2+2.6+0.2+0.2	5.3
Melee Damage	Scrapper+Stalker +PB+AS+AW	1.7+0.6+0.2+0.2+0.2	2.9
Ranged Damage	Blaster+Sentinel+Corruptor +PB+WS+AS+AW	1.8+0.8+0.9+0.2+0.2+0.2+0.2	4.3
Control	Controller+Dominator +WS+AW	1.7+0.6+0.2+0.2	2.7
Support	Defender+Mastermind +AS	0.9+0.9+0.2	2.0

 

So if there's unintended holdups in team formation, watch out for "we already have we don't need" with respect to Tanker and Brute, and "we can't start we need" with respect to Defender and Mastermind.

 

And if there's the potential to add second roles for archetypes, it might help to focus on the "needy" categories, Support, Control, Melee Damage.

[Dispari]

Second role for each archetype is a good idea, but I'm not sure what Scrapper, Stalker, and Sentinel would be. They only do one type of damage and don't really tank.

 

Doms and Masterminds also fit into more than two roles because of the wide variety of their powers. Doms get both melee and ranged attacks in addition to control, and Mastermind pets are all over the place and can count as anything.

[Psi-bolt]

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I think one of CoH biggest positives is that on most content you can roll with 8 random players and go have fun.  Sure this is only a small additional reward, but it will lead occasionally to exclusionary behavior and that's to be expected.  Even if you don't bother to recruit for that, there will be times when someone on the team will try to switch to meet the bonus or some other behavior intended to ensure the bonus exists.  It's just natural for people to want to ensure that they get those additional rewards.  It's going to lead to minor drama.  

 

This is one of those weird things where it would be better just not to do a thing or if you're going to encourage this behavior, then you might as well make it worth it.  My preference is that CoH has made it 20 years without this and it's not necessary now.    

[ranagrande]

You should ditch the role system entirely and give the bonus to any team with at least five different ATs.

[Lunar Ronin]

35 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I think one of CoH biggest positives is that on most content you can roll with 8 random players and go have fun.  Sure this is only a small additional reward, but it will lead occasionally to exclusionary behavior and that's to be expected.  Even if you don't bother to recruit for that, there will be times when someone on the team will try to switch to meet the bonus or some other behavior intended to ensure the bonus exists.  It's just natural for people to want to ensure that they get those additional rewards.  It's going to lead to minor drama.  

 

This is one of those weird things where it would be better just not to do a thing or if you're going to encourage this behavior, then you might as well make it worth it.  My preference is that CoH has made it 20 years without this and it's not necessary now.    

 

The problem is that there is already exclusionary behavior.  The only acceptable ATs on most hard mode teams are Blaster, Corruptor, and Scrapper.  Defender, Brute, and maybe Tanker if they're being generous.  This is a small step in trying to correct that.

[Dispari]

44 minutes ago, ranagrande said:

You should ditch the role system entirely and give the bonus to any team with at least five different ATs.

This would make a lot more sense and be easier for players to understand (instead of having to learn that Corrs aren't a support AT). It could even be 6, 7, or even 8 different ATs for all I care. Simplicity is best.

[Andreah]

26 minutes ago, Dispari said:

This would make a lot more sense and be easier for players to understand (instead of having to learn that Corrs aren't a support AT). It could even be 6, 7, or even 8 different ATs for all I care. Simplicity is best.

I agree.

 

For example, My Kin/Fire defender is certainly support. But is also tanking (softcapped with complementary dr and mezz protection), does ranged damage (defender secondary buffed with fulcrum shift), Also control via fold space and [Repel] with KB->KD. 

 

We can build with so much variability it would be easier to list what archetypes generally can't do rather that which these traditional roles they would narrowly fit.

 

Even with any five different ATs, this excludes clearly variable superteams, like all defenders, all tankers etc. 

 

I'm not convinced this change is actually solving a real problem, and I'd be happy if it was deleted.

[Psi-bolt]

56 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

The problem is that there is already exclusionary behavior.  The only acceptable ATs on most hard mode teams are Blaster, Corruptor, and Scrapper.  Defender, Brute, and maybe Tanker if they're being generous.  This is a small step in trying to correct that.

Hard mode teams are going to remain exclusionary because there's a gameplay reason there for needing specific ATs.  For normal TF, the "bring whatever you want" culture of CoH is one of its greatest strengths and this lessens that, if only to a minor extent.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

Even if you don't bother to recruit for that, there will be times when someone on the team will try to switch to meet the bonus or some other behavior intended to ensure the bonus exists.  It's just natural for people to want to ensure that they get those additional rewards.  It's going to lead to minor drama.  

This is a good point.  Nobody wants to finish recruiting for a TF, have one person go "oops, we need a Controller, brb gonna switch" while 7 other people who really don't care either way about getting one extra Prism just have to sit around waiting.  But I could absolutely see it happening.

[Lunar Ronin]

23 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

Hard mode teams are going to remain exclusionary because there's a gameplay reason there for needing specific ATs.  For normal TF, the "bring whatever you want" culture of CoH is one of its greatest strengths and this lessens that, if only to a minor extent.

 

The only reason you "need" specific ATs for hard modes is if you care about getting the rewards as quickly as humanly possible.  Hard modes can be done with any AT just fine.  All you need is some balance.  Been there, done that.  But too many of the Homecoming player base have convinced themselves otherwise.

[ranagrande]

6 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

The only reason you "need" specific ATs for hard modes is if you care about getting the rewards as quickly as humanly possible.  Hard modes can be done with any AT just fine.  All you need is some balance.  Been there, done that.  But too many of the Homecoming player base have convinced themselves otherwise.

That being the case, why would this change anything?  At best you might have teams bring a dominator or controller.  More likely, they'll stick with the list you mentioned because a faster clear is more valuable than the reward.

 

But it absolutely will cause delay and confusion at lower levels.

 

Problems and solutions for regular and hardmode TFs/SFs should not be lumped together.  They're too different.

[MonteCarla]

I was a bit perplexed by this.

I run pickup Task Forces on Everlasting a lot, and part of the fun is that you sometimes get a lop-sided team, sometimes you get an awesome team chock full of support, and so on.

And everyone figures out how to work together, because that's one of CoH's biggest strengths. You don't NEED a tank, or healer or whatever.

 

Sounds like there has been some different behaviour on Hard Mode Task Forces though, and this is meant to help address that?

 

 

(I also take part in all-Corrupter and all-Defender Task Forces, and they're fun too. We really don't need any bonuses due to our sheer awesomeness!)

 

[skoryy]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:55 AM, The Curator said:

More Prismatic Aether for everyone without any action needed! 

 

Just repeating this from the patch notes.  Team composition won't be that big an issue.

[csr]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:18 PM, macskull said:

The rewards from this system aren't significant enough that I'd be expecting people to intentionally swap characters to get the bonus, which is kind of how it was intended. One PA every 18 hours isn't nearly enough to get me to swap.

 

I think this change is fine the way it is, but I'm not sure if people will see the bonus as insignificant.  Aethers have been selling for about 3M for a while now.  Reward Merits through Special Salvage have been worth roughly 200k.  So this adds approximately 15 Merits worth of reward to a TF.  For some TFs that's a large percentage increase.

 

Personally, I don't like standing around doing nothing, but almost everyone else doesn't seem to mind waiting for a team to fill.  So I won't be the least bit surprised if speed diversity Posi 1s and Yins become a thing.

 

Edited January 22 by csr

[Cobalt Arachne]

So let me explain the reasoning behind this free bonus:
In most MMOs on the market, they function with the holy trinity of Tank / DPS / Healer. However, City of Heroes does not function this way, and rather has a more diverse set of roles that players take while playing on a team together.

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles, and then giving a small reward to teams that are inclusive and bring every type of player role. Perhaps the name of the reward should be changed to 'Role Inclusivity Bonus'?

 

From experience, chasing rewards can oftentimes work better than tutorials for guiding players to more natural success in their gameplay, so that's why this was decided.

 

Lastly, it puts a little more Prismatic Aether into everyone's pocket for minimal effort, which helps new players by virtue of being able to convert it to influence on the AH which also stimulates the player economy and also teaches new players to utilize the AH while working on their characters.
For a new player, a single Prismatic Aether could potentially fund their entire build on SO enhancements; Extremely valuable for somebody just starting out.

FAQ:

• The roles were chosen so that the full classic team of all five Hero or Villain archetypes would complete the free bonus; This is reflected in the challenge icon.
• One role per AT for simplicity & fairness; There are too many ATs that would count for more and others that would count for less.
• Epic ATs count for three roles because their inherent powers all deal with teams, so this makes them extremely appealing for team invites and is in-line with their design goal.
• Corruptors are listed as Damage because their Inherent power, Scourge, only deals with doing more damage, not support.
• This free bonus was not in any way an attempt to sway or influence Advanced Mode team compositions; This free bonus reward is far too low to have any kind of impact on regular runners of that content.
• This free bonus is not an attempt to disrupt the City of Heroes element of 'any team can work', because while that's always been true...
  'any team can work well' has never been a guarantee and there have been plenty of teams I've joined that have been rough experiences because the composition just wasn't considered while forming the team. While lopsided teams can always work, they shouldn't be considered the ideal or baseline experience to strive for giving our new players.

[golstat2003]

19 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

The only reason you "need" specific ATs for hard modes is if you care about getting the rewards as quickly as humanly possible.  Hard modes can be done with any AT just fine.  All you need is some balance.  Been there, done that.  But too many of the Homecoming player base have convinced themselves otherwise.

 

I think the issue is most folks don't want to spend 3-4 hours doing hard mode content, as they don't have 3-4 hours to do said content. So they want to speed through it. I don't think there is any issue with that. Also optimizing the team to make the hardest content a little bit easier isn't bad .  . . as long as the wait to start said content isn't 2 hours of the leader doing "looking for this or that so we can start".

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Also optimizing the team to make the hardest content a little bit easier isn't bad .  . . as long as the wait to start said content isn't 2 hours of the leader doing "looking for this or that so we can start".

Two hours is a bit of hyperbole, but where I see the problem being isn't hard mode content - it's the stated intent of putting of a little more cash into the pockets of new players.  That is, Posi -1 and -2.
 

 

3 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Lastly, it puts a little more Prismatic Aether into everyone's pocket for minimal effort, which helps new players by virtue of being able to convert it to influence on the AH which also stimulates the player economy and also teaches new players to utilize the AH while working on their characters.
For a new player, a single Prismatic Aether could potentially fund their entire build on SO enhancements; Extremely valuable for somebody just starting out.

This paragraph leaves me uncomfortable.  It assumes that new players will play TFs and kind of requires that they play TFs to get around the core problem - that low level SOs are too [bleeping] expensive for new players and low level characters to obtain.  It leaves new players that follow the hints that the game gives them and who start playing contact/story missions behind the curve.

Note: I am NOT disagreeing that something has to be done because something absolutely does.  (But that extended discussion and the tangle of related issues is way off topic here.)

[Cobalt Arachne]

9 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

that low level SOs are too [bleeping] expensive for new players and low level characters to obtain.

Not a simple problem to solve due, one of the primary reasons that low level players are so poor is that Double Experience Boosters turns off their Influence gains and so, as a result, they have no money to buy SOs.

Changing boosters is a very complicated/touchy affair, as they're already quite the controversial topic to begin with.

We could suggest players not default to using the Double Experience Boosters if they want to earn Influence, but we sort of know how that goes because we're having the Influence problem in the first place.

[Blackbird71]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

So let me explain the reasoning behind this free bonus:
In most MMOs on the market, they function with the holy trinity of Tank / DPS / Healer. However, City of Heroes does not function this way, and rather has a more diverse set of roles that players take while playing on a team together.

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles, and then giving a small reward to teams that are inclusive and bring every type of player role. Perhaps the name of the reward should be changed to 'Role Inclusivity Bonus'?

 

From experience, chasing rewards can oftentimes work better than tutorials for guiding players to more natural success in their gameplay, so that's why this was decided.

 

Lastly, it puts a little more Prismatic Aether into everyone's pocket for minimal effort, which helps new players by virtue of being able to convert it to influence on the AH which also stimulates the player economy and also teaches new players to utilize the AH while working on their characters.
For a new player, a single Prismatic Aether could potentially fund their entire build on SO enhancements; Extremely valuable for somebody just starting out.

FAQ:

• The roles were chosen so that the full classic team of all five Hero or Villain archetypes would complete the free bonus; This is reflected in the challenge icon.
• One role per AT for simplicity & fairness; There are too many ATs that would count for more and others that would count for less.
• Epic ATs count for three roles because their inherent powers all deal with teams, so this makes them extremely appealing for team invites and is in-line with their design goal.
• Corruptors are listed as Damage because their Inherent power, Scourge, only deals with doing more damage, not support.
• This free bonus was not in any way an attempt to sway or influence Advanced Mode team compositions; This free bonus reward is far too low to have any kind of impact on regular runners of that content.
• This free bonus is not an attempt to disrupt the City of Heroes element of 'any team can work', because while that's always been true...
  'any team can work well' has never been a guarantee and there have been plenty of teams I've joined that have been rough experiences because the composition just wasn't considered while forming the team. While lopsided teams can always work, they shouldn't be considered the ideal or baseline experience to strive for giving our new players.

 

I understand the intent, however I believe the execution is misguided.  I think this system will actually cause more confusion for new players, reducing understanding of the various ATs, as it will lead them to believe each AT is pigeonholed into a specific role, when in fact most ATs can fill multiple roles depending on power sets/build.

[Blackbird71]

Sorry for the double-post, but given the subject matter I thought this deserved to be kept separate from other thoughts:

 

4 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles, and then giving a small reward to teams that are inclusive and bring every type of player role. Perhaps the name of the reward should be changed to 'Role Inclusivity Bonus'?

 

I think that HC would do well to follow it's own rules and avoid "controversial political content."  In modern political parlance, the words "diversity" and "inclusivity" both carry heavy political connotations primarily used by one side of the political spectrum as a positive, and by the other as a negative.  These are "charged" words in the current environment, and if HC wants to truly avoid controversial subjects, they should be avoided.  What's more, they are current "buzzwords," and are likely to fall out of fashion in time, and when that happens any reference using them will appear dated.

 

[Cobalt Arachne]

3 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

I understand the intent, however I believe the execution is misguided.  I think this system will actually cause more confusion for new players, reducing understanding of the various ATs, as it will lead them to believe each AT is pigeonholed into a specific role, when in fact most ATs can fill multiple roles depending on power sets/build.

That's fine, if you'd like to suggest an alternative solution to mine that would achieve the same design goals then go ahead I'd love to read it, otherwise I will disagree with you on your point.

I believe our players are smart enough to understand the context of the game and know through common-sense that the main roles one is expected to perform when joining a team of strangers does not equate to them being the only things a character can possibly contribute.

[Cobalt Arachne]

8 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

Sorry for the double-post, but given the subject matter I thought this deserved to be kept separate from other thoughts:

 

 

I think that HC would do well to follow it's own rules and avoid "controversial political content."  In modern political parlance, the words "diversity" and "inclusivity" both carry heavy political connotations primarily used by one side of the political spectrum as a positive, and by the other as a negative.  These are "charged" words in the current environment, and if HC wants to truly avoid controversial subjects, they should be avoided.  What's more, they are current "buzzwords," and are likely to fall out of fashion in time, and when that happens any reference using them will appear dated.

 

If you've got alternative suggestions on any names that communicate the bonus's goal and function, I'd love to hear them!

The name can be changed effortlessly, it's a single string to adjust; If somebody has a better sounding idea, please let me know. 🙂