What to pair with Ninjas?

[Xandyr]

Hey all.

 

 Really wanting to play Ninjas, but undecided on a secondary. Please give me some input on what pairs well and synergies between the secondary and Ninjas. 

 

 I've thought Sonic to get high defenses and pretty good resists.

 

Thermal, for ok resists and heals.

 

Pain, for a little resists and heals.

 

Dark , because, it's Dark (to hit debuffs/heal/etc)

 

Time, for capped defenses, heals, etc.

 

Anything else?

 

What are you pairing with Ninjas? How's it working? And if you were going to play them, what would you go with it?

 

Thanks!

-c

[evetsleep]

I've literally got every secondary with ninjas.  The defense based ones are a given but the one secondary I've had the most fun with is trick arrow.  Fantastic debuffs that include a partially unresistable -ToHit (Flash Arrow).  While it doesn't have a heal and since the ninjas can all heal themselves it's not a huge deal.

 

In the end, after the rework, ninjas are.pretty solid.  More cardboard dragons instead of paper.  Certain mobs still sneeze and make them crumble (really anything that does a lot of -def), but in the end I still find them fun.  

 

If you haven't given ninjas/trick arrow a try it's worth taking it to the 30s to see what you think.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'd say an Oregon Pinot Noir.

[kelika2]

cold

it has quite a few skippable powers for personal attacks and maneuvers

two ice shields and fog come at low levels and stay strong. 1 extra slot in shields and train ninjas hits the ground running for defense

benumb is very skippable until level 49 or so.  pre-50 not many AVs are legit threats nor are they common encounters.  and at 50 there is always a few dozen lore pets on said AV

and heat losses 6 minute cooldown makes it a rather undesireable power. the amount of theorycrafting and mids only building someone is about to do is not worth it.  take it in your late 40s

and frostwork is just too much of a hassle to keep up all the time

[smnolimits43]

My first 50 on Excelsior is Ninja/Empathy, tons of fun, and easily soloable.

[Plutoria]

Mastermind (Ninjas - Trick Arrow).mbd

 

Go trick arrow and never look back. You'll be surprised at how effective debuffs are. The ninjas keep themselves healed. Its a high APM play-style. Of the countless MM combos i've done, this one shreds hordes of mobs solo (54/8 all foe types, spider, carnies, DA mission mob types ect). Vengeance power boosted is pretty amazing but if you don't team often ( or people don't die often) can swap it out for poison gas arrow and slot the self heal proc into it. Open ideally with a power boosted flash arrow but not required for engagements. This build can pull multiple packs of mob and the ninjas/AoE procs will plow it all down. Grab defense amp buff from P2W for added status protection if you feel it is needed.

[StrikerFox]

If diligent cycling Fortitude, Empathy would work out well. Softcap defense, great heals, Recovery Aura would allow less end slotting. Clear Mind for mez protection.

[biostem]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:55 AM, Xandyr said:

Really wanting to play Ninjas, but undecided on a secondary.

Force field can work nicely, and force bolt kind of looks like a hadoken and force bomb is kind of like a spirit bomb, if you want to go with a more mystical/ki theme...

[tidge]

If I were to go Ninjas, my first choice of secondary would absolutely be Trick Arrow.  The set's inherent debuffs look to be very powerful, and many of the ranged attacks could slot the Annihilation %-Res piece as well. I like having multiples of that %proc in MM AoEs, because increasing the duration of that debuff helps increase damage output from the henchmen.

[Crysis]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:04 PM, kelika2 said:

cold

it has quite a few skippable powers for personal attacks and maneuvers

two ice shields and fog come at low levels and stay strong. 1 extra slot in shields and train ninjas hits the ground running for defense

benumb is very skippable until level 49 or so.  pre-50 not many AVs are legit threats nor are they common encounters.  and at 50 there is always a few dozen lore pets on said AV

and heat losses 6 minute cooldown makes it a rather undesireable power. the amount of theorycrafting and mids only building someone is about to do is not worth it.  take it in your late 40s

and frostwork is just too much of a hassle to keep up all the time

 

So much seconding this.  I used to be huge on /Time for Ninja’s and several other MM primaries, but /Cold and Ninja’s work really, really well together.  Same for Mercs although obviously Ninja’s are going to be very melee oriented.  Cold requires so few slots to be super effective that you can load up your personal attacks and if you still feel you need something else consider Cross Punch, more for the KD than the damage, although procc’d out it’s not so bad as far as MM attacks go.

 

But otherwise, a Ninja/TA is a lot of fun and very thematic.  I often show up on ITF “All Bow User” teams and people are often surprised that MM Ninja primary attacks are bow based.  

[Force Redux]

I won't argue TA is amazing. But I would also hold up Cold, and I've got a ninja/cold at 50 recently. The two go together like peanut better and jelly:

 

Ice shields + IOs + maneuvers + fog + 2-slotted Train Ninja with DefMods gets you 51%+ on Genin, and only gets better for Jonin and Oni. 

 

Ninjas get Kuji in Sha heals, so they take care of bleed through damage on their own. 

 

Arctic fog gives them some resists, and stealth ((c'mon ya gotta have stealthy pets as a ninja master!)), and is a great IO mule.

 

Infrigerate and Sleet are your bread and butter debuffs. Floors defense  and eats resistance. Proccable for more fun, too.

 

Benumb is ok for AVs, GMs, but I skip heat loss as recharge is ridiculously long.

 

I skip frostwork. With no heal component, it is too much busy work for too little benefit, but if you team it may be ok if you have a tanker or brute buddy not at hp cap. When Oni casts his Rain of Fire, Sleet keeps them within it. And it's up virtually every spawn.

 

I like and keep Snowstorm. It's a one slot wonder power. While AVs will resist it greatly, other mobs will have their move and recharge crippled, which benefits your ninjas. It does draw a lot of aggro so be advised to cast it in defensive or around a corner. Between this and Sleet, you can "control" two spawns.

 

I went with Chill epic for theme  and it's also very complementary. Hoarfrost, Ice Armor and Hibernate keep your mastermind standing during hot moments.

 

Oni has a ST Ring of Fire, which is useful for keeping bosses running from your DoTs and debuffs, bridging a control gap you otherwise might have. He casts it frequently too. Acc/Mezz hami in Oni helps him stack.

 

just my two info...enjoy whatever you choose!

Edited December 3, 2023 by Force Redux

[Last Dark Emperor]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:25 AM, smnolimits43 said:

My first 50 on Excelsior is Ninja/Empathy, tons of fun, and easily soloable.

Hi could u pls provide build link,tx.

 

[UltraAlt]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:55 AM, Xandyr said:

What are you pairing with Ninjas?

 

kinetics and time manipulation

 

On 11/24/2023 at 1:55 AM, Xandyr said:

How's it working?

 

They are fun when I play them, but I don't play 50's.

The secondaries fit for me character conception-wise.

I jump characters a lot. I usually team when I play them.

 

On 11/24/2023 at 1:55 AM, Xandyr said:

And if you were going to play them, what would you go with it?

 

I have to say that I really think electric is the most powerful mastermind secondary - in leveling content at least.

I haven't gone out of my way to try to rationalize a ninja/electric concept. I have necromancy/electric and robot/electric characters.

If you run in defensive mode, target through a minion, and jump into the middle of the fray, the electric heals and buff bounce off your target to hit nearby allies. If you heal or buff one of your nearby minions, there is a good chance that you will be healed and buff as well. The set also has a shield that you can drop at a location that will shield you and those around your.

 

[MaHaBone23]

Kinetics does SILLY amounts of damage with Ninjas. Plus they are usually in melee so they benefit from the heals and the FS. Downside is speed-boosted pets make all the dumb AI mistakes but they make them A LOT faster.

Nin/Sonic is also pretty solid. Slap Sonic Repulsion with the KB->KD proc on a minion or LT and turn them into a mobile earthquake.

[Random Axis]

I have a Nin/Time that I really like. It's an active playstyle where you need to be close to the action for your toggle aura to debuff the bad guys while you toss out buffs and debuffs. 

 

When you're working on your build, remember that the first upgrade skill can take defense IO sets and the second one can take healing. They're good spots to put a LotG, Miracle, or Numina to save a slot or even a whole power pick as a mule.

[JayboH]

Anyone have a Ninja/Dark that is updated with the new training power slotting?

 

Also, how is this combo compared to the others?

[R jobbus]

On 11/25/2023 at 7:47 AM, Plutoria said:

Mastermind (Ninjas - Trick Arrow).mbd 45.54 kB · 322 downloads

 

Go trick arrow and never look back. You'll be surprised at how effective debuffs are. The ninjas keep themselves healed. Its a high APM play-style. Of the countless MM combos i've done, this one shreds hordes of mobs solo (54/8 all foe types, spider, carnies, DA mission mob types ect). Vengeance power boosted is pretty amazing but if you don't team often ( or people don't die often) can swap it out for poison gas arrow and slot the self heal proc into it. Open ideally with a power boosted flash arrow but not required for engagements. This build can pull multiple packs of mob and the ninjas/AoE procs will plow it all down. Grab defense amp buff from P2W for added status protection if you feel it is needed.

Hey, I am trying this build out now and im kinda looking for tips on how to use it .. it seems very difficult to use. im opening with flash arrow and using power boost, but the mobs keep getting to me. The timers on emp and oil slick are still pretty long, can you explain a bit more in detail how you're supposed to play this? I was trying to solo on +3/6 on peregrine radios and it seemed a little rough at times. I didn't slot poison gas arrow though, maybe I should try that if I'm soloing? Any other tips? maybe I'm newer to MM, if stuff is getting to me I should immediately call them back to what's hitting me/flash arrow/ice/etc. Would the poison gas slotted w/ self heal make a big difference? any info on this would help. it seems like a fun build but im struggling to really destroy stuff with it. it could be my skill level lol but even so I feel like i'm doing something wrong rather than just not being good enough with it.

[Force Redux]

You shouldn't be drawing much aggro with trick arrow, your pet should be grabbing most of the agro.

 

Are you in defensive mode?

 

Are you sending in your pets before you begin your personal attacks with arrows?

[R jobbus]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:41 PM, Force Redux said:

You shouldn't be drawing much aggro with trick arrow, your pet should be grabbing most of the agro.

 

Are you in defensive mode?

 

Are you sending in your pets before you begin your personal attacks with arrows?

What is defensive mode? Im totally new to MM. sorry for the late response didnt see this. How do you not draw aggro? also yea I tended to have them attack just after I fire the first arrow, what's the best way to go about it. I usually start with flash arrow then have them attack, then continue to support with arrows. But the mobs tend to want to get to me, and once one or 2 do, with that build it's over. Should I be having them attack before I do anything absolutely everytime, to be sure they won't get to me?

 

thanks for any help

[Maelwys]

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mastermind_Strategy#Bodyguard

There's a section there on the controls as well; but it boils down to the various pet "stances" and "orders" that Masterminds can set on each of their pets.
Your pets are always set to something from each of the following two lists:
+ "Stances": Aggressive, Defensive, or Passive.
+ "Orders": Attack, Follow, or Goto ("Stay" exists as well, but it's essentially just a "Goto" command targeted at the pet's current location)

Whenever your pets are in the "Defensive" stance then giving them either the "Follow" or "Goto" orders will enable Bodyguard mode. Bodyguard Mode makes the pet absorb a certain amount of damage that its master takes. Setting multiple pets to Bodyguard mode makes each of them absorb a different 'share' of this damage.
Pets that are in Bodyguard Mode become particularly susceptible to AoE attacks, since they'll be taking their own damage in addition to sharing some of the Master's damage - which is part of why positioning and layering Pet Defense and/or AoE healing is so important on a Mastermind.

Personally when my MM wants to play in "lazy mode" I tend to set just one pet (usually the T3) to Aggressive, and the rest to Defensive. That way the T3 always initiates combat and absorbs the Alpha without worrying about also taking a share of the Master's damage; and the rest of the pets will automatically return fire whilst constantly keeping the master reasonably well protected.

[R jobbus]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mastermind_Strategy#Bodyguard

There's a section there on the controls as well; but it boils down to the various pet "stances" and "orders" that Masterminds can set on each of their pets.
Your pets are always set to something from each of the following two lists:
+ "Stances": Aggressive, Defensive, or Passive.
+ "Orders": Attack, Follow, or Goto ("Stay" exists as well, but it's essentially just a "Goto" command targeted at the pet's current location)

Whenever your pets are in the "Defensive" stance then giving them either the "Follow" or "Goto" orders will enable Bodyguard mode. Bodyguard Mode makes the pet absorb a certain amount of damage that its master takes. Setting multiple pets to Bodyguard mode makes each of them absorb a different 'share' of this damage.
Pets that are in Bodyguard Mode become particularly susceptible to AoE attacks, since they'll be taking their own damage in addition to sharing some of the Master's damage - which is part of why positioning and layering Pet Defense and/or AoE healing is so important on a Mastermind.

Personally when my MM wants to play in "lazy mode" I tend to set just one pet (usually the T3) to Aggressive, and the rest to Defensive. That way the T3 always initiates combat and absorbs the Alpha without worrying about also taking a share of the Master's damage; and the rest of the pets will automatically return fire whilst constantly keeping the master reasonably well protected.

I had no idea about this, holy crap. thanks.

 

Yea i'll keep the wiki open when im playing lol

 

So how do you use this with /trick arrow though, like set them to defensive to absorb damage but also fire off arrows consantly to help give them a big advantage? I was going to respec into poison gas with the heal proc instead of vengeance since im almost always playing solo with this.

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, R jobbus said:

So how do you use this with /trick arrow though, like set them to defensive to absorb damage but also fire off arrows consantly to help give them a big advantage? I was going to respec into poison gas with the heal proc instead of vengeance since im almost always playing solo with this.

Whilst it's possible to micromanage your pets through lots of clicking on buttons in the regular User Interface... a lot of players (myself included) find it far, far easier to rely on binds. Looky here (for the original idea) and here (for the homecoming revision) to get started. My personal preference is here.


In actual gameplay, whenever I'm paying attention on my MMs and not in lazy mode I'll typically do something like this:

Set All Pets -> Defensive Follow (default), then for each enemy group I'll give an order like T3 Pet --> Attack My Target (which makes one of my henchmen start firing on my current target) followed by actually firing off my own attack powers (by this point the remaining henchmen will have noticed that something is shooting at them, and start shooting back); followed by positioning myself and the pets appropriately to make best use of AoEs (if necessary). Some Primaries like Robotics will tend to stay back and shoot from Range; others like Ninjas and Necro are mostly Melee and things become more of a Zergling rush.

My Bot/Kin MM has a ridiculously min/maxxed endgame build and plays a little different - aside from keeping their buffs up, they'll generally just order the pets to PASSIVE FOLLOW ("stop whatever you're doing and come here dammit") then immediately swap them to DEFENSIVE GOTO (with the T3 pet set to AGGRESSIVE GOTO) and direct them right into the middle of the nearest huge mob of foes (enabling Bodyguard mode and attracting enemy attention). Then the MM themselves will dash in; hit Fulcrum Shift; drop Fireball/Bonfire/etc. then repeatedly spam Transfusion whilst their buffed ball of henchmen basically transform into a big metal blender. Sometimes I'll bother to use Group Fly to stay ~10 feet up and/or hit Support Hybrid and Barrier and/or summon Lore pets... but that's overkill unless I'm herding an entire map (which admittedly happens a fair bit!).
 

Edited May 31 by Maelwys

[R jobbus]

7 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Whilst it's possible to micromanage your pets through lots of clicking on buttons in the regular User Interface... a lot of players (myself included) find it far, far easier to rely on binds. Looky here (for the original idea) and here (for the homecoming revision) to get started. My personal preference is here.


In actual gameplay, whenever I'm paying attention on my MMs and not in lazy mode I'll typically do something like this:

Set All Pets -> Defensive Follow (default), then for each enemy group I'll give an order like T3 Pet --> Attack My Target (which makes one of my henchmen start firing on my current target) followed by actually firing off my own attack powers (by this point the remaining henchmen will have noticed that something is shooting at them, and start shooting back); followed by positioning myself and the pets appropriately to make best use of AoEs (if necessary). Some Primaries like Robotics work will tend to stay back and shoot from Range; others like Ninjas and Necro are mostly Melee and things become more of a Zergling rush.

My Bot/Kin MM is plays a little different - aside from keeping their buffs up, they'll generally just order the pets to PASSIVE FOLLOW ("stop whatever you're doing and come here dammit") then immediately swap them to DEFENSIVE GOTO (with the T3 pet set to AGGRESSIVE GOTO) and direct them right into the middle of the nearest huge mob of foes (enabling Bodyguard mode and attracting enemy attention). Then the MM themselves will dash in; hit Fulcrum Shift; drop Fireball/Bonfire/etc. then repeatedly spam Transfusion whilst their buffed ball of henchmen basically transform into a big metal blender. Sometimes I'll bother to use Group Fly to stay ~10 feet up and/or hit Support Hybrid and Barrier and/or summon Lore pets... but most the time it's overkill.
 

 

ok this is awesome. I'm trying it out now and it's so much different. but a few things I wanted to ask.

 

If ninjas die, do you have to reset them into bodyguard mode. In the menu it says they are already in defensive, but do you just have to set them to follow or should they already be doing that when resummoned

 

Also, you do have to retrain-rekuji ninjas when they are resummoned right. it's worth doing this when they need to be resummoned everytime?

 

For /trick arrow, is there a specific arrow I should always be waiting for cooldown before I do anything? like should I always have EMP up when i'm pulling a big group? I know alot of it is just getting used to the movelist of everything but im just curious if there's a super important one that I might be overlooking.

 

thanks for all the help, i do know that alot of this is just playing it and getting used to it. i will try setting the t3 to attack while others are bodyguards. thanks for the response

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, R jobbus said:

If ninjas die, do you have to reset them into bodyguard mode. In the menu it says they are already in defensive, but do you just have to set them to follow or should they already be doing that when resummoned

 

Also, you do have to retrain-rekuji ninjas when they are resummoned right. it's worth doing this when they need to be resummoned everytime?

The default stance whenever pets are first summoned/resummoned is "Defensive Follow"; which enables bodyguard mode.

You will need to re-upgrade them after resummoning though; if you want them to use their additional abilities (which are absolutely worth it).
Thankfully the upgrade powers are AoE these days and you don't need to do each pet in turn after a wipe 🙂

One exception: whenever you change zones the pets will follow you and keep their upgrades; but their HP and Endurance gets refilled and they'll swap back to Defensive Follow (it's basically a "resummon" under the hood; but keeping the upgrades)

 

Quote

For /trick arrow, is there a specific arrow I should always be waiting for cooldown before I do anything? like should I always have EMP up when i'm pulling a big group? I know alot of it is just getting used to the movelist of everything but im just curious if there's a super important one that I might be overlooking.

Disclaimer: I do not like pure "debuff" support powersets (Dark doesn't count!) and Trick Arrow has historically always been one of my least favourite MM secondaries (beaten only by Poison; which IMO is the #1 rotten egg). Because debuffs are fantastic if you're fighting even-level mooks, but higher level foes and Archvillains just laugh at them.

That said, /TA has a fair number of ways to lessen the impact of a big group of foes suddenly trying to rip your face off. EMP Arrow is much better than it used to be as a capstone; but its recharge is still very long. So Oil Slick would likely be my #1 choice for mitigation, followed by Flash/Glue Arrow. Acid and Disruption arrow are more DPS-magnifiers.
I'd probably also stack Oil Slick with Fireball, and take Bonfire and slot with a Knockback > Knockdown IO for extra shenanigans.
However there are a lot of people out there who are much more familiar with /TA MMs than me!
 

Edited May 31 by Maelwys

[R jobbus]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

The default stance whenever pets are first summoned/resummoned is "Defensive Follow"; which enables bodyguard mode.

You will need to re-upgrade them after resummoning though; if you want them to use their additional abilities (which are absolutely worth it).
Thankfully the upgrade powers are AoE these days and you don't need to do each pet in turn after a wipe 🙂

One exception: whenever you change zones the pets will follow you and keep their upgrades; but their HP and Endurance gets refilled and they'll swap back to Defensive Follow (it's basically a "resummon" under the hood; but keeping the upgrades)

 

Disclaimer: I do not like pure "debuff" support powersets (Dark doesn't count!) and Trick Arrow has historically always been one of my least favourite MM secondaries (beaten only by Poison; which IMO is the #1 rotten egg). Because debuffs are fantastic if you're fighting even-level mooks, but higher level foes and Archvillains just laugh at them.

That said, /TA has a fair number of ways to lessen the impact of a big group of foes suddenly trying to rip your face off. EMP Arrow is much better than it used to be as a capstone; but its recharge is still very long. So Oil Slick would likely be my #1 choice for mitigation, followed by Flash/Glue Arrow. Acid and Disruption arrow are more DPS-magnifiers.
I'd probably also stack Oil Slick with Fireball, and take Bonfire and slot with a Knockback > Knockdown IO for extra shenanigans.
However there are a lot of people out there who are much more familiar with /TA MMs than me!
 

Ah I really appreciate the help. that makes sense.

 

 I don't know quite know what im doing wrong at this point. Im still struggling just soloing +4/8 PI radios with the /trick arrow build that was posted here. The ninjas just get utterly destroyed, it seems very difficult to keep everything debuffed, and it's quite cumbersome trying to retrain them when a few of them get picked off. I'm taking less damage from body guard mode but I think I might benefit from a different secondary to be honest. Do you have a secondary you prefer for ninjas? i may just not be feeling TA enough right now I suppose.