This game is not as new player friendly as many of us think it is

FFFF · January 13

If you've never tried this game before, this game feels overwhelming. There's also several things you can do as a player to make things harder, and end up with a bad experience.

This video came up in my recommendations. It's a nearly 3 hour stream so I'll walk you through some highlights. Also, I realize he's not very serious in the stream, and maybe had a drink or two, which probably affected his decision-making. Nonetheless, even if the player was serious, I think these choices are easy to make as a new player.

The player considers picking Going Rogue and ending up in Praetoria (3:07) Coincidentally, we had a new player on Discord who was playing a level 12 Titans/Bio Brute and was absolutely getting thrashed by the mobs there. Praetoria has none of the guiding missions that blue side has.
The player picks Peacebringer as his starting archetype (4:28 ). Peacebringers are great, but if you are unfamiliar with the AT it is not as straightforward as a scrapper or blaster. And I don't think most people would recommend the EATs, VEATs as a first ever character.
The costume creator (which most of us love) is overwhelming (6:34). Tons of choices but things like unlinking colors, not knowing whether a costume piece is a chest detail or a shoulder is not intuitive at all. I can see a new player struggling with trying to get it to look like a superhero instead of some mutated, dog-headed robot (not that I have any biases against mutated, dog-headed robots)
The player skips the tutorial and goes in as a level 1 straight to Atlas Park (19:23). I think that's a consequence of being a Peacebringer; however, it's a choice any new player can make especially if they feel they are a veteran in other MMOs, RPGs. So he missed out on a description of the power tray, maps, way points, enhancements and inspirations. In this video, I don't think he used inspirations until level 4. Fortunately, a person who was watching his stream rolled a brand new controller (gravity/force fields) and teamed with him until he started getting it. Note, the player literally died in his first fight in the game against a mob of Vahzilok. (24:40)
The player inadvertently zoned into Steel Canyon (28:28), took on a group of deep purple con Fifth Column as a level 1 and was promptly sent to the hospital. It was fortunate in this case he was a Peacebringer but any other AT without a flight power would have caused the character to be stuck at the hospital unless they managed to run to one of the trams or the zone exits (perhaps, a run into Perez Park instead of trying to make the Yellow tram?)

Anyways, some other highlights:

Thinks the Fifth Column are police NPC, dies immediately (29:10)
Zones into the hospital deep in Steel Canyon, dies almost immediately to Outcasts/Tsoo (29:55)
Lured in by the fascinating, green glow of a Circle of Thorns ritual and dies immediately (32:32)
Flies out of Steel Canyon to safety (34:56)
Cotton Candy Cuddles tries to give influence (who does this all the time on Excelsior). Rejected because he thinks he's being scammed (1:51:28)

tl;dr, This game is a lot less new player friendly than most of us vets thinks it is.

Ghost · January 13

Sorry, but your highlights are pretty funny

Frostbiter · January 13

I don't remember ever being that much of a newbie. Most of his problems wouldn't have happened if they'd have taken the time to read and look at everything in front of them. Except for possibly the Vahzilok. We've all been there.

Edited January 13 by Frostbiter

FupDup · January 13

I think a part of the issue is that when many of us were starting out, the game was a fair bit simpler (didn't have stuff like Going Rogue), and the epic AT's required a level 50 toon to unlock. A lot of the streamlining that helps experienced players with quality of life makes it easier for somebody like that streamer to accidentally step into the shark tank. Some of those guardrails had a purpose.

Edited January 13 by FupDup

biostem · January 13

I'm not sure how things like choosing to skip the tutorial or selecting one of the "epic archetypes" as a new player is a knock against the game. Consider, for instance, that you used to need at least 1 level 50 in order to unlock the EATs. The game, AFAIK, does introduce you to the "con system" that talks about targeting and enemy difficulty levels, so not sure how one would confuse an enemy with an NPC. I've tried showing younger folks how to play, and in general it seems to be a combination of unfamiliarity with WASD controls, impatience, and them wanting the game to explicitly point everything out for them...

Edited January 13 by biostem

Reiska · January 13

A lot of it also is just that the landscape has changed in the intervening years. CoH was very new player friendly compared to other MMOs in 2004, and still pretty new player friendly compared to other MMOs even in 2010 (when Going Rogue released), but the market has moved a fair bit forward by 2023 and it's now competing with the onboarding experiences of games like FFXIV which themselves probably learned a lot of lessons from CoH's onboarding experiences and the aforementioned general tendency of most modern games to much more explicitly point things out to the player.

Some comments, nonetheless:

Praetoria, just like City of Villains before it, suffers from the fact that the early-level content in Praetoria was overtuned compared to the low-level blueside content everyone was used to. I don't know that addressing this for Praetoria at least is desirable *now*, but it's probably not a bad thing to warn people of in general. It *might* be desirable to poke at it for redside.
As noted previously in the thread EATs used to require you had a level 50 of their respective faction in a non-epic AT first. While I wouldn't advocate for re-locking them, they probably should have some kind of "WARNING: This archetype is more complex than most and is not recommended for inexperienced City of Heroes players" thing in their description for this reason.
Likewise, a tweak to the tutorial prompt noting that it's recommended for people who have never played *this game* even if they're generally familiar with MMOs might be a good idea, considering that this game broke a lot of MMO standards in 2004 already and still does. (Most prominently still evidenced by how many players don't get that CoH is a game about the journey, not the destination; it's not a game that sequesters all of its real content to max level and that *still* really throws people because every other MMO still does that.)
You didn't mention it, but the P2W vendor on Homecoming could probably be better signposted to new players (or returning players from Live). In general, a good step for issue 28 would be to step up the onboarding on changes that aren't immediately obvious from Live's issue 24 specifically - the P2W vendors and how they relate to the removal of the old Paragon Market cash shop, transit consolidation, the changes to the backend functioning of Wentworth's/the Black Market with respect to crafted IO level pooling and salvage pooling, etc.
The introduction to the "con system" is in the tutorial that was skipped, IIRC.

Glacier Peak · January 13

1 hour ago, FFFF said:

If you've never tried this game before, this game feels overwhelming. There's also several things you can do as a player to make things harder, and end up with a bad experience.

This video came up in my recommendations. It's a nearly 3 hour stream so I'll walk you through some highlights. Also, I realize he's not very serious in the stream, and maybe had a drink or two, which probably affected his decision-making. Nonetheless, even if the player was serious, I think these choices are easy to make as a new player.

The player considers picking Going Rogue and ending up in Praetoria (3:07) Coincidentally, we had a new player on Discord who was playing a level 12 Titans/Bio Brute and was absolutely getting thrashed by the mobs there. Praetoria has none of the guiding missions that blue side has.

The player picks Peacebringer as his starting archetype (4:28 ). Peacebringers are great, but if you are unfamiliar with the AT it is not as straightforward as a scrapper or blaster. And I don't think most people would recommend the EATs, VEATs as a first ever character.

The costume creator (which most of us love) is overwhelming (6:34). Tons of choices but things like unlinking colors, not knowing whether a costume piece is a chest detail or a shoulder is not intuitive at all. I can see a new player struggling with trying to get it to look like a superhero instead of some mutated, dog-headed robot (not that I have any biases against mutated, dog-headed robots)

The player skips the tutorial and goes in as a level 1 straight to Atlas Park (19:23). I think that's a consequence of being a Peacebringer; however, it's a choice any new player can make especially if they feel they are a veteran in other MMOs, RPGs. So he missed out on a description of the power tray, maps, way points, enhancements and inspirations. In this video, I don't think he used inspirations until level 4. Fortunately, a person who was watching his stream rolled a brand new controller (gravity/force fields) and teamed with him until he started getting it. Note, the player literally died in his first fight in the game against a mob of Vahzilok. (24:40)

The player inadvertently zoned into Steel Canyon (28:28), took on a group of deep purple con Fifth Column as a level 1 and was promptly sent to the hospital. It was fortunate in this case he was a Peacebringer but any other AT without a flight power would have caused the character to be stuck at the hospital unless they managed to run to one of the trams or the zone exits (perhaps, a run into Perez Park instead of trying to make the Yellow tram?)

Anyways, some other highlights:

Thinks the Fifth Column are police NPC, dies immediately (29:10)

Zones into the hospital deep in Steel Canyon, dies almost immediately to Outcasts/Tsoo (29:55)

Lured in by the fascinating, green glow of a Circle of Thorns ritual and dies immediately (32:32)

Flies out of Steel Canyon to safety (34:56)

Cotton Candy Cuddles tries to give influence (who does this all the time on Excelsior). Rejected because he thinks he's being scammed (1:51:28)

tl;dr, This game is a lot less new player friendly than most of us vets thinks it is.

I think it's new player friendly. For your consideration, there is absolutely no risk for said player beyond being defeated - which itself carries no penalty until Level 10.

Captain Fabulous · January 13

Seems to me a lot of the wounds are self-inflicted. If you pick a regular AT, go blue, do the tutorial (choosing to skip the tutorial as a new player is pretty dumb), and then see the contacts the game gives you it's all very new player-friendly, especially once you get to Twin Shot, as that arc does a lot of educating and touring. The game is not always going to be easy for new players, especially when you get sent to Perez Park or the Hollows, but that doesn't mean it isn't friendly. Yes, there is a lot you need to figure out on your own, but that's true of all MMOs, and part of the MMO experience.

And I have to say, the community here is awesome, and is ready and willing to help newbies, which is more than I can say for other superhero MMOs that _{*cough*D*cough*} shall _{*cough*C*cough*} remain _{*cough*U*cough*} nameless _{*cough*O*cough*}.

Edited January 13 by Captain Fabulous

Doc_Scorpion · January 14

It's not clear to me how someone making all but every single mistake possible shows this game to be "not new player friendly".

LordAvalon · January 14

3 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

Except for possibly the Vahzilok. We've all been there.

Heh, that reminds me of my first day way back in Beta- my eyes aren't that great, and the purple text has a tendency to bleed a little on some monitors, so I thought that cool-looking bondage themed guy was named "Mark Eidolon" and tried to get close for a better look...

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Seems to me a lot of the wounds are self-inflicted. If you pick a regular AT, go blue,

Thing is, I don't think theres anything that particulary indicates that these are the recommended choices for a new player, so it's fair to point out that maybe something should be said

FupDup · January 14

47 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

It's not clear to me how someone making all but every single mistake possible shows this game to be "not new player friendly".

Well, somebody just downloading the game for the first time isn't going to know that certain choices like picking a Peacebringer or Going Rogue are mistakes. It's a lack of guard rails, and I think that the epic ATs should have the option to play tutorials since they can now be created without having a level 50 first.

Go0gleplex · January 14

How in the heck does someone get wiped in Praetoria? Did he aggro multiple groups or something? (oO) I play solo and have taken some pretty weak toons there and I might wipe once, maybe twice...usually in Neutropolis by the slums or reactors. I find Praetoria easier than blue and red zones personally even with all the psi attacks. (prefer dealing with those over the Vahz and CoT).

But yeah, the highlights are amusing. Only thing that comes to mind there is 'what was the person thinking?' for most of 'em...'cause they sound more like bad choices than something wrong with the game. The tutorials and starter zones are there for a reason after all...simple common sense. Gotta agree with Doc Scorp.

biostem · January 14

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Well, somebody just downloading the game for the first time isn't going to know that certain choices like picking a Peacebringer or Going Rogue are mistakes. It's a lack of guard rails, and I think that the epic ATs should have the option to play tutorials since they can now be created without having a level 50 first.

On the flip side, there's the process of learning from your mistakes. Especially with an unfamiliar game that has multiple classes/archetypes, it should be SOP to try different types of characters to get a general idea of how things function. It's also incumbent on players nowadays to, y'know, ask for help or look stuff up online...

blackhand · January 14

A comedy or errors. Thanks for the summary.

Snarky · January 14

I did an experiment just to see. I took fuve people and fave them 3 days to get familiar with CoH. To motivate them after the first day I killed the worst of them. By the third day they were doing very well.

StarseedWarrior · January 14

No old style mmo is new player friendly it could explain some things better but fairly standard to be honest and lets not forget free, the issue is there isnt enough updated guides or videos.

Clave Dark 5 · January 14

Sound slike he made exactly all the worst possible choices. Some of that might be luck, some of it maybe not. I wanna say though even I knew not to try and face down purple-cons.

All that said: when I started, I had a friend already here who could look over my shoulder and give me some simple explanations like "don't face down purple-cons." If this guy literally jumped in without advice one or didn't look up anything, that's more on him I think. I wouldn't expect to be able to hop into WoW (or any other game) without doing some reading up.

And the Costume Creator being so big? That's a feature not a bug!

ZekeStenzland · January 14

Well, if you happen to pick HEAT as your AT, you aren’t given the option of doing the tutorial — you’re just dumped directly into Atlas Park in front of the PB or WS contact. I could see suggesting that ATs are marked with a Challenge Rating suggestion for beginners. Possibly even showing them for Power Sets as well.

Not sure about the costume creator complaint. Yes it’s quirky. Without completely revamping it, I don’t see what can be done. I guess if a new player wants to make an awesome, unique costume in 30secs, it’s an issue. I don’t think it’s the end of the world that you might spend an hour just meandering through it the first time.

As for Level 1s getting stuck in steel canyon hospital, I’m less sympathetic. Getting ganked by mobs now helps build valuable situational awareness for later. How to spot dangerous mobs. How to avoid dangerous mobs. How to outrun dangerous mobs. How to ask in /help for help getting out of Steel Canyon at level 1. Who knows, maybe at some point they’ll realize that the numbers after the zone names on the Train destination list are suggested level ranges?

Edited January 14 by ZekeStenzland
Verb restored

Scarlet Shocker · January 14

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

I did an experiment just to see. I took fuve people and fave them 3 days to get familiar with CoH. To motivate them after the first day I killed the worst of them. By the third day they were doing very well.

How many beings make fuve?

Seed22 · January 14

This is good information, because this is directly from a new player’s perspective. No matter what you all think of how the player fell into this or that trap or did this or that wrong, even if I agree with you generally, this is the new player experience.

It may sting but hey thats reality for ya.

Coh will struggle to attract a large amount of new players long term for these and a few other reasons outside of the game’s control. I still think its a decently new player friendly MMO, but I guess the new player themselves think otherwise and in this instance as much as it hurts, given they are the new player, I will have to default to their perception

Edited January 14 by Seed22

Skyhawke · January 14

I've been avoiding posting in this one because I can see both sides of it. Yes, COH Homecoming has been a playground for vets since it came out and new people won't know not to take an epic archetype or not hit Going Rogue before trying their hand at the regular content. On the other hand, you don't just hop behind the wheel of a Lamborghini with zero driving experience and then blame the dealership when you crash. It's on those of us that have been here for years to give advice and help as we can. It's on the new and returning people to do more than install and go. There's a wealth of information on these boards as well as the wiki.

Do I think this is going to turn off some people? Sure. Modern MMOs handhold like crazy and the modern MMO audience is used to that. Should it turn them off? No. The tutorials are there for a reason. Twinshot/Dr Graves are there for a reason. If anything, I'd question how much trouble it would be to add a pop up when someone chooses Going Rogue that lets people know it's made to be a bit harder than regular content (it is, you know it is, please don't epeen waggle at that comment) and that taking a Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier or Widow is meant for players who have a good understanding of the game.

There's a couple pitfalls for sure, but it's also on the player to not go in blind. Do so and you're gonna have a bad time. Like the person in that video. Zip, zip, zip and off you go. What were they expecting? 🤷‍♂️

Snarky · January 14

49 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

On the other hand, you don't just hop behind the wheel of a Lamborghini with zero driving experience and then blame the dealership when you crash.

It is not my fault. The dealer told me this baby could fly!

Luminara · January 14

No-one bothered to check the video maker's Youtube channel? None of you noticed that this guy's played just about every MMO that exists and can't be as incompetent as he acts in that video? That the whole thing is deliberately skewed to portray Co* in a bad light because that's how this guy makes his living?

Snarky · January 14

Speaking of making a living. Some of you still havent checked out my only fans site....

Skyhawke · January 14

21 minutes ago, Luminara said:

No-one bothered to check the video maker's Youtube channel? None of you noticed that this guy's played just about every MMO that exists and can't be as incompetent as he acts in that video? That the whole thing is deliberately skewed to portray Co* in a bad light because that's how this guy makes his living?

I watched 'em zip through character creation and stopped watching. I was definitely not digging further on their channel. Good on you for doing it, though.

That being said, there are a handful of things (already illustrated several times) that could use a tweak to at least give a "Hey, we warned ya".

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