Redside... Best side? Right??

[Super Atom]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

So basically Mercy Island just needs that platform where the Arbiter and Quartermaster are cleared of plants and benches, and players will migrate to red side?

 

no, It's basically a "too late" situation. AP is the hangout central and where people gravitate to and has been for too long, so everyone is just use to going to ap for it and new players will see everyone there and end up doing it too. Blue isn't better, it just came first and had a good standing area right out the gate.

[The Larker]

I used to play red exclusively. I liked the arcs better and honestly I don't like blue side.

 

One thing that I have said in the past is that you never feel truly villainous. As @Luminara pointed out on almost every count she is correct.

 

I want to be Ultron, the Joker, or Helspont not some sap who eventually arises above Recluse. 

[The_Warpact]

2 minutes ago, The Larker said:

I used to play red exclusively. I liked the arcs better and honestly I don't like blue side.

 

One thing that I have said in the past is that you never feel truly villainous. As @Luminara pointed out on almost every count she is correct.

 

I want to be Ultron, the Joker, or Helspont not some sap who eventually arises above Recluse. 

I used my alt account to respond my bad.

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Most of it ends up with your character doing things *you* may not want them to (I have few redsiders who'd turn someone over to be experimented on, for instance) or coming out as at *least* just a lackey, if not incompetent.

You actually see this blue side too. Where actions are shoved down your throat. That is the limitation of a video game. (The difference is, the actions shoved down your throat red side tend to be more restrictive when it comes to player interpretation. In my opinion, mostly because the writer put in comments for the red siders that imposes a petty or ignorant level of villainy, whereas blue side more focuses on imposing actions as part of your mission dialogue, and actions are much more open to interpretation.)

 

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

(And as an aside there, I really wish we'd have the *option* not to hurt civilians in mayhem missions. Most of my villains are not psychopathic mass murderers.)

Agreed. (And as a badger, I still absolutely loathe and detest that a badge is awarded for taking out the civilians, especially one with such a high body count.)

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by Rudra
Edited to correct "you" to "I". And again to remove extra "with".

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 (And as a badger, you still absolutely loathe and detest that a badge is awarded for taking out the civilians, especially with one with such a high body count.)

 

 

I love that badge! 😉

[Rudra]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

I love that badge! 😉

Yeah, my mistake, it was supposed to say "And as a badger, I still...". Going back to correct now.

[FupDup]

I have a few reasons for having more heroes than villains:

 

1. Character concepts, I generally like being good or at least an edgy anti-hero a lot more than being entirely selfish or an outright psychopath. 

 

2. The lower population makes it harder to get team content going. 

 

3. Much lower number of contacts/arcs and zones, which makes progression feel very samey between multiple alts. Blueside allows for a lot more different side-paths with stuff like The Hollows and Croatia. This is made worse by many NPCs requiring you to be introduced by a broker first. 

 

4. The story arcs tend to be shorter, which means fewer merits awarded at the end, which means a harder time making inf. And with less team content, that's another source of merits reduced. 

 

 

The first one is hard to solve without messing up the tone/lore of the Isles. The second one is a chicken-or-the-egg kind of thing. The bottom two are more actionable. Just a little nudge up in the merit rewards in most redside arcs would be nice. Not a huge bump, just a few extra to help reduce the income gap a little. 

Edited January 20 by FupDup

[Frozen Burn]

Read this entire thread so far and I keep hearing double talk about the writing and content saying it's the best, but then how it sucks because we're not treated as a respectable villain.  It can't be both.  First off - Praetoria has the best writing and content in the game hands down.  You make choices and and you navigate your way through the grey areas of life and lean good, evil, or somewhere in-between.  I know we're not talking about Praetoria, but i bring it up for comparison.  

 

CoV - the writing is strong, but the content is weak.  The NPCs are well developed, interesting, and written well - but the overall content for CoV has us not feeling very villainous at all (everything most everyone has already said so far in this thread).  We get no say in how we're treated - like little pissants that mean nothing to anyone even in the upper levels - which may be fine early on as we learn the ropes from breaking out of the Zig... but once up in level, you're still not respected as a villain.  So, the content in CoV is just horrible in that way.  But I do realize that this content was years before Praetoria.  I think the mistakes that are in CoV and CoH really helped shape how good Praetoria is.  Unfortunately, CoV just never got updated with better content on the whole.  Maybe this is something the HC devs can look into for the future.

 

Additionally, as a Vigilante (Blue-side), I can intentionally kill NPCs.  This feels more villainous than all the content red-side.  When I play a Rogue or Villain in the Isles, I feel like more of a Vigilante stealing and robbing, and fighting other villainous factions.  Not that I need my villains to kill, but it seems like it's not much of an option Red-side, which it should be a more prevalent choice there.

 

Ultimately, I just hate the way my character is treated, not feared, and not respected in the Isles.  Blue-side, you feel respected and treated appropriately.

 

I also realize that as a company (NC Soft) that puts out a game with content to the public where the player gets to be "villains" / bad / evil - can be a liability thing.  We certainly do not want any kids or unhinged people to buy into the roleplaying too much and take some of this stuff to real life (we know it's not the norm but that it does happen).  Not only is it an ethical stance to keep the content "dumbed down" but it is also from a legal responsibility position the company has to do this when creating the game.  So, I kind of get why the CoV content is "soft" and we truly do not get to do evil deeds or be that evil villain we might want.  I think this is the inherent flaw with CoV that may never be fixed.

 

Mechanic-wise / actually playing in the Rogue Isles:

• It's dark, gloomy, dirty, dingy - I both love and hate this.  It's unique to the Isles, which I love, but after a bit, it's too much.  Even villains get sunny and bright days.  Even they get to walk through clean streets - some even have their thumbs on the sanitation unions and their hands in their pockets to keep their cities clean.  As a real person sitting at the keyboard and staring at the screen - it's too depressing to see so much gloom 100% of the time.  Weather changes is what ALL sides need - occasional rainy days Blue and Gold side, and occasional bright sunny days Red.
• Mercy Island:
  • I liked it the way it was before the starting point was moved to the big fort.  It used to be after breaking out of the Zig, we land in the small fort at the north end of Mercy Island - we had a few contacts to help us fight and get some experience, and essentially lead us newbie villains to the safety of Arachnos' big fort on the other side of the island - we get introduced to Arachnos, how they operate and after a few more levels - we are encouraged to go seek our fortune and path in Port Oakes.  It was a nice progression through the starter zone.
  • Now, it's all a jumbled mess.  You can level up with content just in the big fort and never leave it (except to get badges).  And when you do get a contact that sends you to the rest of the island, it SUCKs especially when you have to run back across the island to get back to the contact because they haven't given you their cell # yet - and then you get the next mish that sends you down the elevators and out across the isle again.
• Paper missions - new mechanic at the time and CoV relies too heavily on it.  It seems like filler content because they wanted to release the game and there wasn't enough NPC contacts with content (I'm guessing - maybe not, but that's how it feels).  It's a cool mechanic to repeatable random content and paper/radio missions are a good addition to the game.  But CoV relies too heavily on it.  Sometimes, doing paper mish and the robbery will out level me from the contact I was trying to get to!  I really hate that.
• NPC capture/Lead out - Another new mechanic that was introduced with CoV, which is cool.  But it was WAY over done.  It's such a pain to do all these lead out/capture missions.
• Stat Enhancing Accolades (Born in Battle, High Pain Threshold, Invader, Marshal):
  • These on the whole are easier to get Hero-side.
  • Yes, Invader (TF Commander) is REALLY easy *IF* you have a lvl 50 villain friend or on an alt account to get you all the bank missions explore badges from the lvl 50 contact. 
    • (To me, this feels like a cheat - and while yes, I'm a villain and would cheat, as a player I'm not, but roleplaying a villain... and that's a whole other existential rabbit hole we can down in another thread.)
    • However, if you don't have a lvl 50 villain friend or alt account and are alone - it's a long wait to lvl 45 for this stat that you can get Blue-side at lvl 35 (plus all the reward merits from all the TFs).
  • Born in Battle (Portal Jockey)   
    • You have to endure 1 million points of damage to earn this and a LOT of ATs rely on Defense for survivability, so it can take ages to get this badge. 
    • To get this in a reasonable amount of time, you have to turn off your defenses (that've worked hard to earn) just so you can take damage to get this.
    • This is easier to get Blue-side by just defeating some AVs/EBs in an arc (more reward merits) and collect a few explores and plaques.  
  • High Pain Threshold (Freedom Phalanx Reserve)
    • You have to get a debt badge to get this accolade - yes, you have to let yourself die multiple times to pay off debt to get this.  COMPLETELY counter intuitive for gameplay.  
    • Blue-side - it's just explores, plaques, and defeats (the hardest being fake nems because they only spawn at lvl 40+, but doable and can get early, if you try) - it should be similar for villains.
  • Marshal (Atlas Medallion)
    • Practically every toon needs this +5 to max endurance boost early on.
    • Red-side, you can't get this until lvl 45 because you have to defeat the Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF.  
    • Blue-Side - the hardest thing to get is hunting some vamps and wolves - which can be easily gotten in the Moonfire lvl 23+ TF - so, you get this early when you need it.
  • As a villain, to get these, it's easier to switch to Vigilante, grab them, and then switch back.  But that can go against character concept for most.  Why switch back?  Heck, why start villainside at all, if I have to go hero to get these things easier?  
• As someone else stated, Blue-side, you get freedom of zones to take your character through - you can skip or take the Hollows, Faultline, Skyway or Steel Canyon, Talos or IP, Croatoa, Striga - there are so many options Blue-side.  Red-side - you're locked and you have to do the same content over and over again.  
  • Having played the game since 2004, all of it played over and over again, it's just that Blue-side has more paths to follow.  I can make 10 Heroes and all of them have different paths/contacts.  Those 10 as Villains, and practically half would repeat the same content because there just isn't the options to go elsewhere outside the existing zones.  (ie - the Isles need more isles.)  🙂  
• Navigation
  • I LOVE that streets are not square blocks like a lot of zones in Paragon City.  The Isles have diagonals on that grid which is wonderful.  But that can also be disorienting.  And there are many people who hate that or find it difficult to navigate around the island - streets laid out on a grid might be boring, but it is easier to navigate.  
  • Grandville can also be very difficult to navigate, especially if you do not fly. 
    • It's a cool factor that the zone and contacts went upwards - that doesn't exist in Paragon City. 
    • Finding elevators up is difficult.  They are hard to spot and you don't know if the one you found leads to the waypoint way up in the sky.  It's completely aggravating for my non-flying toons to have to buy a flght pack just to get to my contacts. 
    • I am sure this is also off-putting for many people. 
• Strike Forces
  • They are fun and I like them, but reward less merits on the whole than Blue-side TFs.  
  • There needs to be more SFs with content worthy of higher amount of reward merits than the existing SFs.

I guess I've rambled enough for now.  🙂  

 

 

Edited January 20 by Frozen Burn

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Ultimately, I just hate the way my character is treated, not feared, and not respected in the Isles.  Blue-side, you feel respected and treated appropriately.

This is one thing about red side that seriously bothers me. It doesn't matter what level you are. It doesn't matter what missions/arcs you've done. The civilians mock you. Frequently. "Oh, you fought Captain Mako? So what. Pathetic." (Bear in mind, this is not an actual quote, it's a personal translation of the different comments of this nature that completely unpowered, weaponless, and incapable in the face of the basic threats around them people you encounter in every zone make. Especially if you completed a tip any time in the relatively recent past.) And while they mock your character? They cower from a Hellion, a Skull, or any other faction member before turning around and running for their lives.

 

Edited January 20 by Rudra
Edited to add missing closing parenthesis.

[Greycat]

49 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

•  
  • I liked it the way it was before the starting point was moved to the big fort.  It used to be after breaking out of the Zig, we land in the small fort at the north end of Mercy Island

 

 

 

Mm. That's one of the other things. OK, so COV had a storyline (sort of) where Arachnos busted you out - now you have to "prove yourself." And you start off essentially "owing" Arachnos (whether you did Breakout or not.) What about the 'home grown' villains? Or the ones that made their own way there and already have a rep? The closest we have to those (other than just ... ignoring it as you play) are VEATs.

 

And I severely dislike the VEAT storylines and the forced respec at 24... but one touch I *really* wish they had was having the world react to you. Make a Kheld? You get Quantums and Voids coming after you. You are *noticed* and people are trying to do something about you. VEATs? You're a rogue (essentially) Arachnos soldier/widow - and depending on what path you take you're supposedly psychically linked to the others like you... but nobody reacts to you. Nobody tries to make *their* name making a special effort to stop you - or to join you. You're just another schlub, you just have a slightly more special outfit.

 

 

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

 

Mm. That's one of the other things. OK, so COV had a storyline (sort of) where Arachnos busted you out - now you have to "prove yourself." And you start off essentially "owing" Arachnos (whether you did Breakout or not.) What about the 'home grown' villains? Or the ones that made their own way there and already have a rep? The closest we have to those (other than just ... ignoring it as you play) are VEATs.

 

And I severely dislike the VEAT storylines and the forced respec at 24... but one touch I *really* wish they had was having the world react to you. Make a Kheld? You get Quantums and Voids coming after you. You are *noticed* and people are trying to do something about you. VEATs? You're a rogue (essentially) Arachnos soldier/widow - and depending on what path you take you're supposedly psychically linked to the others like you... but nobody reacts to you. Nobody tries to make *their* name making a special effort to stop you - or to join you. You're just another schlub, you just have a slightly more special outfit.

 

 

Not actually true, though it is very limited. Your VEAT character is hunted by Arachnos. And (admittedly just) 1 Arachnos Huntsman is trying to use you to make a name for himself (for taking you down) to elevate himself in Arachnos. Though that does only happen at a few points. Such as Kalinda trying to play you. That Bane Spider that your 1st VEAT contact says he is going to "deal with" for his betrayal. And a couple other points I can't currently remember.

[Captain Fabulous]

I know I was rather disappointed in CoV when it first came out for the same reason many have already stated here -- you don't ever really seem truly villainous. Yes the stories/writing is better and the zones are more detailed (sometimes in a good way, sometimes not), it flops in never allowing you to feel like a true villain. And I'm not sure how one would fix that without an overhaul in stories and missions that have you doing truly dastardly and unseemly things worthy of a supervillain instead of a street punk.

And maybe it's just a mental thing, but when you're a hero, fighting throngs of lackies feels super and heroic. You're taking on the bad guys and winning. But do the same thing as a villain and it doesn't work. It doesn't make you feel evil. The only thing that distinguishes what you're doing as a villain versus a hero is the mission text, e.g., kidnap instead of rescue, robbing the bank instead of stopping the robbery. But ultimate the game plays 99% identically no matter which side you're on.

Having unique ATs and powersets helped to give us a reason to play redside, but with everything proliferated and with being able to change sides at will that's gone.

[Captain Fabulous]

<snip> duplicate post

Edited January 20 by Captain Fabulous

[skoryy]

I remember when SWTOR launched with Jedi and Sith factions and my mind instantly went to CoH/CoV.  "Oh no. Nobody wants to play a bad guy!"  And then the Sith became by far the popular faction.

 

So, if we want to start there, we can compare the Sith to redside.  The Sith were arguably the devs' favorite, getting better missions, map layouts, etc.  That does lend itself to our situation, with the Isles being the red-headed stepchild of development: Fewer maps, less content, 'Flight Or Bust' map design.  Though a good part of that can be pinned on CoV development having to compete with CoH for dev resources.  HC would need to devote more resources to the Isles than to Paragon to play catch up, and I'm not sure we're in the situation to be able to pull that off.

 

The other important thing, I think, is the lack of the 'cool factor'.  Your blueside hero gets to save Superman Statesman.  How cool is that!  Your redside villain gets to... continue to be a second banana to Lord Recluse.  You don't get to be Vader or President Luthor or DOOM. You don't get to pull off crazy hijinks like the Joker. You're the Shocker.  Boba Fett at best.  A Shocker or Boba Fett with incarnate levels but still the Shocker or Boba Fett taking orders from higher ranking villains.  Either that or you're having to help save the world.  Not to degrade anyone who likes being in a lesser villainous role, but there's certainly an audience there that wants to be DOOM and finds the Isles not to their liking.  Not to mention that while a leveling experience makes for a good hero's journey, the villain's journey is usually either all backstory or done by the end of Act One.  Even Anakin took all of one act to make the actual turn into Vader.  Stretching that out to fifty levels of content doesn't make for a good narrative and drags down that 'cool' factor.

 

Now for the easier and hopefully doable fix...

 

Rogues and vigilantes shouldn't have to play mustache twirler or goodie two shoes for twenty levels until they unlock their true self.  Give players the option to go rogue or vig at start, and with the content to match. Yeah, that'll mean building twenty levels of content. but I think that's more of a doable payoff that would easily increase redside population.  And yeah, I also know Null's an option, but there's no rogue or vigilante content until 20 so what alignment are you really?

 

Edited January 20 by skoryy

[Dracses]

The appeal of a villain in a story is that they are often the driving force of whatever story is currently unfolding. They are proactive. Heroes are more born out of a response to a villain, which makes them reactive. This proactive/reactive dichotomy is what makes "Villain Protagonists" such a hard thing to accomplish in any form of media. Even in video games, a Villain Protagonist more-often faces off against an even bigger Villain rather than consistently against the forces of Good. City of Villains has this same "problem" in the vast majority of its content, though it fits the setting of the Rogue Isles as a Social-Darwinism society to weed out weaker villains.

 

The newspaper missions, the HC introduced arc involving the diamond (I can't remember the name, but it had Arc Flash in it), and only a handful of others are where you play a proactive role in achieving your villainous goals. Most arcs will treat your Villain as a henchman to whoever contact you work for, while others are more befitting something like a mission-broker offering a quest to mercenaries. Mr. G's arc, is a good example of using a contact to support the player character as a proactive force, but even still it is Mr. G's plan. Not yours.

I don't have any technical "fix" for creating interest in CoV, but focusing on content that really drives home the themes of scheming, greedy, vengeful, violent, and maniacal villainy will give you a totally different tone to look forward than in City of Heroes' content. Content that sees you as a driving force, forming your own plans and schemes, and ultimately executing them. This begs the question of how you would maintain the status quo of your character who might want to conquer the world? That's a question with an answer for a different discussion though, for when content like that eventually may come.

Edited January 20 by Dracses

[Alchemystic]

20 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

As a follow-up question, what would you think is a good solution to increasing general interest in the Rogue Isles?

So bear with me here because this is a multifaceted suggestion that at face value is going to seem a bit contentious, but hear me out...

Revamp Bloody Bay, Siren's Call and Warburg into Villain Zones.

Now before people get too antsy, I'm not saying remove the PvP from these zones, but instead create two versions of these zones; one PvP, one PvE.

 

The older PvP versions of these zones would be accessible via the portals in Atlas Park and Grandville that are linked to Recluse's Victory, adding them to the travel menu available there, and also accessible via the Temporal Warrior system. (I would also like to suggest that portals be added to Mercy Island and Peregrine Island for the sake of convenience and fairness). Other than that? Nothing else would change; they function the same, have the same level caps, same content, etc. Only difference? They would be made available to PvP-only characters, and would be considered (at least in terms of lore) historic content much like Praetoria and the Echo zones.

Now, for the PvE revamps, that gives us three existing maps to work with, which means a drastically reduced workload when it comes to making zones. Three "new" zones for redside means the scale of content between redside and blueside starts to level out somewhat (both sides would have 11 city zones!). The difficult bit is scaling the zones for PvE instead of PvP. Right now, the zones are set at 25, 30 and 38, whereas most other zones typically have mobs with more level range, about 6-10 levels apart. To help them fit snugly into the current lineup of zones, we could make Bloody Bay a 15-25 zone, Siren's Call a 25-35 zone, and finally Warburg into a 30-40 zone. This matches up nicely with what blueside has to offer in terms of level distribution, while remaining close to their original levels.

 

As for the content of these zones? There's plenty that could be utilized; the Shivans of Bloody Bay could be explored in further depth, revealing the deeper mysteries behind their origins and their connection to the Neo-Shivans that invaded Galaxy City, and how they could potentially be exploited as a new superweapon against Paragon City. It could also include narratives regarding the Nictus and 5th Column, and their supposed connection to Battalion, and the 'Coming Storm' these Shivans apparently heralded.

Siren's Call is an open book, but it serves as a good way of providing mobs that would be exlusive to blueside to villains as well. From a narrative standpoint, it's an easy platform to further villainous goals in Paragon City, and perhaps make some connections to the criminal powers operating in the city such as the Outcasts, Trolls and Warriors, each of which dont currently feature in the Rogue Isles. This would be a good vehicle for a redside connection with these gangs, something I'd personally love to see.

Warburg presents a golden opportunity to explore the narrative of the Rogue Arachnos, delving into the nuances of Arachnos politics, and the subesquent coups and power struggles between internal factions in the organisation. Since Warburg was formerly a Council stronghold, perhaps they could be included as a key power in the area looking to reclaim their bases and re-establish a command point in the Rogue Isles. Longbow would also be an obstacle to both, still looking to subvert a potential missile crisis.

 

I know this is a pretty tall order, but I figure if revamping zones is currently on the agenda, these three would make for good candidates for a future redside expansion, and hopefully by inducting their legacies into the Temporal Warrior system, we're also broadening the PvP content available to players.

 

 

Edited January 21 by Alchemystic

[Dracses]

4 minutes ago, Alchemystic said:

Revamp Bloody Bay, Siren's Call and Warburg into Villain Zones.

100% Agree. Warburg alone deserves it for the Arachnos vs Rogue Arachnos story. I'll bet a good number of people didn't even know who Marshal Blitz even was when he popped up during the signature arcs.

[Night]

30 minutes ago, Alchemystic said:

Revamp Bloody Bay, Siren's Call and Warburg into Villain Zones.

 

I like the idea of making the three PvP zones into villain zones. Or, well, making copies of them for villains as suggested. There are definitely plenty story arcs that could be done there, perhaps some with a more gray-blue-leaning in parts, more for rogues and vigilantes but not exclusively so. Like bringing up the entire reason Siren's Call exists, a hero accidentally blew it up, a great starting point for people lobbying for much stricter power control for the villain to bring crashing the whole operation down.

 

The Drowning in Blood lvl 15-20 trial brings you to Bloody Bay and is right in range of it, following on with the story of Shivans and Neo-Shivans which could be further built upon as well.

 

It also helps that the zones themselves already are populated with their specific selections of NPCs so stories could be told around the areas they occupy and utilizing the lore from exploration badges and environmental storytelling of the zones.

[megaericzero]

To reiterate what others already said: there's less villain content and heroes are more convenient. If you ask me, the two big areas for that would be maps and contacts/storyarcs.

 

Blueside has more maps that cater to a wider range of aesthetics and offer alternative choices at multiple level ranges. Even if multiple zones went unused or underexplored (largely the older hazard zones), they offer alternative vistas that feel visually-immersed in their motif. Redside is a string of island slums with a gimmick-aesthetic that's only even tacked onto a section of each map, compounded by a fairly strict linear progression from one zone to the next.

 

Ease of traversing is also important. The grid-like layout, clear, wide, open streets, and less need for Fly/SJ/TP make for a better experience getting from A to B even if blueside sends you from zone to zone between missions. While the aesthetic of inconvenience contributes to the theming of redside, actually being inconvenient is mentally-taxing.

 

Contact progression blueside is also more fluid as your existing contacts offer you a choice of who to send you to next, sometimes multiple times, as you work through their missions and arcs. This lets you bounce around where you want as opposed to redside's patterned newspapers-A-B pattern that resets in every zone.

 

As for storyarcs (or missions in general), it's easier to write for heroes than villains. Heroes will do the good thing at the end of the day regardless of what the contact says, because it's the right thing to do. Villains have varied motivations and would want to have their specific motivation stroked (or at least not contradicted) - big money payout, the chance to cut loose, spreading their ideology, etc. It would be nice for each alt to be able to progress on a path that feels at least partly suited to a specific villainous drive or only a small set of them instead of being the every-villain that's sometimes an obedient lackey, sometimes cartoonishly money-grubbing, sometimes insatiably murderous, etc.

 

In terms of solutions, gating features from blueside or giving material rewards to redside (boosted inf/exp/drops) are not the way to go. Dangling a carrot may lure people in but only begrudgingly. Make it a place people actually want to be instead.

 

That's my take, at least. There are other, minor details like villain enemy groups generally having less models - making them feel more bland - or just being existing COH groups +1 new enemy type, difficulty being slightly higher going from blue to red, lack of  a gathering hub equivalent to Atlas Plaza, etc. but the above are the big two.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Alchemystic said:

So bear with me here because this is a multifaceted suggestion that at face value is going to seem a bit contentious, but hear me out...

Revamp Bloody Bay, Siren's Call and Warburg into Villain Zones.

 

 

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

23 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

It's intriguing, because I've seen a decently common sentiment that Redside has higher quality content overall.

 

From my observations, most people don't really care if the content (and here I am assuming we mean the written portion) is important games. It's important to me and I'm sure many others, but the core part of online games for most is the combat loop. And that's essentially the same between both sides.

 

23 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

I've also seen the atmosphere of the zones as a reason why people don't play there.

 

I think it's valid. I don't know if I'd want the gloom to be lifted across all the zones, but certainly some nice days would be appreciated. It does get sunny in the Puget Sound sometimes, for example.

 

23 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

As a follow-up question, what would you think is a good solution to increasing general interest in the Rogue Isles?

 

I don't think there is one.

 

My hot take on people in roleplaying games is that they don't want to act like a hero, they want to be told they are a hero.

That's why (again, imo) there's a higher density of scumbags who play Paladin archetypes when offered. It's because they don't want to have to justify their actions; it's easier to just be ontologically good and then go around being a murder hobo.

 

So if you're essentially running the same dopamine train, why not pick the option that reinforces your positive self image?

[twozerofoxtrot]

21 hours ago, Lunar Ronin said:

There really should be a level eight to fifteen strike force in Port Oakes, comparable to the Positron TFs blue side.  Right now, if you're lucky you get to do a DFB red side... and then what?  Missions are great, but for those who prefer to team, SFs are better.

 

I 100% agree with this, and have brought it up before in another post. 

Make a Wretch SF for level 8's! Something like "Wretch hungry, go raid Up and Away burger in Paragon." Anything! But give Reds a leveling track option similar to Blueside.

Also, sort of a tangent but who the heck is Operative Renault and why does this bozo get his own Strike Force? It's bizarre!

[twozerofoxtrot]

15 hours ago, Greycat said:

I really hate having my characters told "this is what you do" no matter what.

 

I don't disagree with anything in your post Greycat, but this isn't unique to Redside at all. This is the exact same for the vast majority of Blueside content, where the limit of your choice is whether or not you accept the mission. That's about it. 

Of course, you astutely identify why it might be more felt on Redside:

15 hours ago, Greycat said:

Plus, of course... well, it is flat out harder to write for villains. Heroes look for cats to rescue from trees. Villains put them there in the first place.

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14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Bluesiders arcs are bland and all just horrible but at least they have agency

 

Do they? Really? Could you show me those arcs where you actually have choices that are made, even superficially?

At the very least you have Redside arcs like Bane Spider Ruben that give superficial dialog choices which enable you to take the prize at the end for yourself, or the Radio mission which (as far as I know, uniquely) gives you an actual choice whether or not to take a certain route or not.

 

[Edit in]: Come to think of it, the Redside Clone arc actually gives a decent mechanical choice when you pick the amount of clones you fight, and then gives you a (slightly) meaningful RP choice at the end with your clone-self, whether you rescue them and/or fight them or not. Whereas the Blueside equivalent with Nash/Adair you are just railroaded through the entire thing, with Adair and your alternate dimension self making all the real calls in the story.

Honestly for as many complaints as there are out there about Redside offering less agency, if we did an honest deep-dive and stacked up which missions provide any sort of choice, dialog-only or mechanical, I'm confident we'd find Redside does offer a higher percentage based on what's offered, and possibly even a larger real number amount.
 

Edited January 21 by twozerofoxtrot

[twozerofoxtrot]

6 hours ago, Dracses said:

but even still it is Mr. G's plan. Not yours.

 

I support your post, Dracses (and nice to see you again!), but a closer reading of the arc and you'll find that it's cleverly written in such a way that Mr. G serves as your advisor and right hand.

Of course, the trade off on that is the player character's internal monolog and decisions are entirely written-for already. It's a particularly egregious case of robbing the player of agency, to the point that their own thoughts are dictated to them. 

[macskull]

There are gaps in the strike forces redside as well. Task Force Commander has a nice progression every 5 levels, but that progression just isn't there for villains.