Presence Set - Provoke Rework

[Purrfekshawn]

Make it not checking Hit checks, like all Taunt powers in melee powersets, and -RANGE to it. Basically give it the same strength as Tanker or Brute taunt (or maybe a bit weaker in Duration/Recharge values). No need to be afraid that players will drop their powersets actual Taunts in a trade to Provoke, because this will mean their choice would be limited to 3 extra Pool powersets instead of 4 (one would be Presence). So for Tankers/Brutes it would be better to take a taunt in their actual powerset anyway.

 

Make it so purchasing the power grants extra power "Provocation Aura". This is basically Toggle PBAoE aura that costs some Endurance and Taunts all enemies around.

 

Reason for this so every character could be turned into Tank-like character, for instance a Scrapper with a secondary powerset without a Taunt Aura built in, or Tanky Sentinal, Peacebringer, Warshade or Villain EAT, or just one who wants to solo enemies and doesn't want their Marathonning away like Headless Chickens. Especially for Architech Entertainment Archvillains, who are especially Cowardly (it seems since AE is invented by Dr.Aeon he used his own mind as a base for Enemies' AI, which is why they are that cowards, and an AV will jettison away with blinding velocity once it sees a minion is dropped next to it!).

[Purrfekshawn]

Another variant is to merge Fear powers from the Presence Powerset into one (Targeted AoE Terrorize) and replace one of Fear powers with "Provicative Aura" - this could encourage players to use more than 1 builds for their Semi-Tanky characters (1 with Presence pool and 1 without it at least).

 

Edited March 13 by Purrfekshawn

[Major_Decoy]

6 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Make it not checking Hit checks, like all Taunt powers in melee powersets, and -RANGE to it. Basically give it the same strength as Tanker or Brute taunt (or maybe a bit weaker in Duration/Recharge values). No need to be afraid that players will drop their powersets actual Taunts in a trade to Provoke, because this will mean their choice would be limited to 3 extra Pool powersets instead of 4 (one would be Presence). So for Tankers/Brutes it would be better to take a taunt in their actual powerset anyway.

I'm not sure that most people end up using all four power pools these days.

 

But I'll agree that Provoke should get another once-over. When it was set to use and accuracy check to taunt, Tanker's taunt didn't have -range. Also Tanker's taunt was still single target so the Provoke pool was just about mandatory for tanks back then. So it got hit pretty hard. Since then, however, Taunt and Confront have improved.

 

The to-hit check in PvE seems unnecessary, and the -range would be nice, but could be limited just to the target if they're worried about it.

[Purrfekshawn]

3 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

so the Provoke pool was just about mandatory for tanks back then.

Well this is interesting. So it must be that Presence pool is the most outdated Pool powerset now, and as Concealment and Teleportation, and all travel pools got their reworks, the same way Presence pool could be brought up to date finally.

[Major_Decoy]

Well, the presence pool did get a rework too, it's just that provoke was left alone.

 

At launch, the presence pool only had four powers: Challenge, Provoke, Intimidate, and Invoke Panic. The rework dropped Challenge from the Presence Pool and picked up Pacify and Unrelenting. They just didn't really change any of the existing powers during the rework.

[arcane]

Pool powers are weaker than AT powers by basic design principle so your proposed changes to Provoke don’t make sense within that framework.

[Purrfekshawn]

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

Pool powers are weaker than AT powers by basic design principle so your proposed changes to Provoke don’t make sense within that framework.

Yeah, it's a matter of discussion of course. But when you're playing on Sentinal or Defender for instance, and different AE missions a boss must be stopped from doing its Marathon Jogging across all over the map. Bosses and other enemies in e.g. Maria Jenkins arc (Praetorian Supervillains) never start headless chickenning across the all map for some reason. Yet player-created enemies in AE do it for some reason. Also We could look @ Battle Maiden and Romulus from 3rd mission of ITF - first one never starts marathonning, and the other does it if no Tanker/Brute/Scrapper with Taunt Aura or Blaster's Device Turret (recently added Turret of Arsenal powerset counts too). So there's some sort of Major AI difference, maybe e.g. an enemy thinks it has only 5% of its HP bar left when it's at 98% HP or sorta stuff like that due to some unhandled long-lasting bug, thus starts running around.

 

Biggest thing l propose making Taunt Aura in Presence powerset, that would do nothing, but Taunt an enemy and stop that marvelous crossing nonsense.

[tidge]

I wouldn't support this suggested change, but I would like it if AT with the equivalent of Provoke or Pacify had the option to take the version from the Presence pool and have it work like their AT power.

 

IMO the Presence pool has two GREAT powers gated behind having to take either/both Pacify and Provoke.

[Purrfekshawn]

l understand that players who play Tankish characters may not be satisfied in aforementioned Presence rework, because it might somewhat (not 100% though) reduce usefullness of their Tankish alts, as every single character could get a Taunt option. But generally it's a bad Tank application, that they're used not for Soaking enemy's damage, but for stopping marathonning-across-all-over-the-map AV option. It's like in DCUO at very beginning there was a nonsence, that Crowd Control powersets were used not for Mezzing enemies, as it's must be, but for Providing Energy (blue bar) to players, so Controllers were technically Healers for players' blue bars, and thus called "daycare".

 

Imagine if enemies in this game were dealing Single Target damage MANAGEABLE for a player character with 90% resistance, but NOT MANAGEABLE for a character with 75% resistance. Then l believe actual Tank archetypes, i.e. Tankers or Brutes would be useful in terms of Soaking incoming damage, as they meant to be.

 

Generally there is an option to tauntlock an AV being any AT, besides current Presence Provoke, but unfortunately it will work only 2 minutes, then the next 2 minutes it will start an crossing enemy away, as it's a Hybrid power. And in general it means abandoning Assault (or some other) Hybrid, and thus lower DPS:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=incarnate.hybrid.melee_genome_9

[Super Atom]

Guys, power pool abilities can't be good or someone might take them. Don't you know basic design???

[TheMoneyMaker]

On 3/14/2024 at 9:01 PM, Super Atom said:

Guys, power pool abilities can't be good or someone might take them for something other than travel powers. Don't you know basic design???

Fixed that for you.

[Zect]

This is a great suggestion. But I want to attack the justification used to disagree with it, which is the whole misguided idea that pool powers need to be weaker than primary/2ndary powers.

 

Firstly, this principle disproportionately disadvantages certain categories like attacks (which need to have good DPA on their own) while not affecting or barely affecting other categories (mostly buffs, which are valuable as long as they stack). CJ and hover are strong picks despite poor base values, because when you're trying to softcap, every bit counts. The same can be said for tough/weave.

 

Secondly, this principle has never been consistently applied. Hasten is equally or more powerful than any +rech buff from any primary or 2ndary so how about we nerf it to a more reasonable 20%?

 

When you look at the stale pool power meta that this basic design principle has resulted in, it is impossible to deny it's been greatly harmful to the game. Just because something is fundamental or has been this way for a long time doesn't mean it's bad or has to go. Paragon Studios, who cooked up this rule in the first place, has a long, long list of questionable basic design principles, chief among them their failure to really understand DPA and really balance around it until the very end (I suspect they just started giving powersets samey animation times instead).

 

You can make provoke weaker than tanker or brute taunts if necessary. But they should be buffed to be strong enough and worthwhile enough to be useful on their own. And the pool really ought to have a taunt aura, even a weaker one, for unarmored AT's that want to hold aggro or armor sets that have none and would like to pick up one. That is one of the basic tools necessary for aggro management. My superior principle of "all pool powers should be useful and viable" might actually result in more off-meta builds that nevertheless do well enough to find their niche.

Edited March 17 by Zect

[Shin Magmus]

I think giving -Range and better values to the Provocation pool powers, but keeping them at I dunno like 75% of what Tankers and Brutes get in their primary, feels completely fair and fine.  This would certainly make it more likely to get taken.  I also think that a buff to the final power might be in order, and maybe Unrelenting can give a Taunt Aura while active?

[Purrfekshawn]

30 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I think giving -Range and better values to the Provocation pool powers, but keeping them at I dunno like 75% of what Tankers and Brutes get in their primary, feels completely fair and fine.  This would certainly make it more likely to get taken.  I also think that a buff to the final power might be in order, and maybe Unrelenting can give a Taunt Aura while active?

 

But we already have temporary Taunt aura, it's called Melee Radial Embodiment (and weaker versions - uncommon & rare ones). 2 min taunt, then 2 min CD. l propose merging 2 pool Terrorize powers into one (how often do people even use Terrorizes?), that would to Targeted AoE Terrorize, then replace one of them to Taunt Aura power, that would do nothing except for Taunting enemies.

[Haijinx]

Was there something wrong with Taunt? 

[Luminara]

Those two Fears are the only two stacking controls in all of the pools.  There aren't any Holds, Sleeps or Immobilizes in the pools, and the few Stuns are unreliable (X% chances).  Those Fears give players the ability to control a boss, even if the archetype they're playing doesn't have an abundance of control, and allow players to set their own targeting parameters (AoE or single-target) if they're only interested in one of them.  And you're asking to have those options removed, taken away from everyone, so you don't have to press W or use a ranged attack.

 

Going to have to add my voice to the general disagreement.  Any suggestion which can be condensed down to "take from others and give to me" is selfish and inconsiderate, and deserves to burn on the shitheap.

[Purrfekshawn]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Those two Fears are the only two stacking controls in all of the pools.  There aren't any Holds, Sleeps or Immobilizes in the pools, and the few Stuns are unreliable (X% chances).  Those Fears give players the ability to control a boss, even if the archetype they're playing doesn't have an abundance of control, and allow players to set their own targeting parameters (AoE or single-target) if they're only interested in one of them.  And you're asking to have those options removed, taken away from everyone, so you don't have to press W or use a ranged attack.

 

Going to have to add my voice to the general disagreement.  Any suggestion which can be condensed down to "take from others and give to me" is selfish and inconsiderate, and deserves to burn on the shitheap.

 

The combined terrorize could get Magnitude of 6 or 7 with a chance for the Main Target of its Targeted AoE, and Magnitude 3 for other target of the power. This will be even more reliable, because to mez the boss it's required Magnitude 4 of effect, and that means using both powers onto boss will succeed with chance not 0.95*0.95=0,9025 = 90,25%, but with 95% as it'll be the only click.

 

But this is again a TBD stuff in general, the main thing is everyone must have access to all-time Taunt Aura for convenience purposes, to be able to stahp Architect Entertainment Boss from marathonning across the map like a headless chicken.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

But this is again a TBD stuff in general, the main thing is everyone must have access to all-time Taunt Aura for convenience purposes, to be able to stahp Architect Entertainment Boss from marathonning across the map like a headless chicken.

Not really. Scrappers get provoke. Tankers/Brutes get Taunt. Controllers and Dominators have layered mezzes.

 

I agree that the flee mechanic in the game needs to be fixed. (Edit: For crying out loud, BP Spirits of Death and Totems are not supposed to run away from their chosen PC target, but I've had to chase them down as they fled multiple times.) I don't agree with taking away Intimidate and Invoke Panic to give all characters Tanker auto-taunt aura capability.

Edited March 17 by Rudra

[Super Atom]

Presence is especially bad because the opportunity cost of taking Unrelenting is horrific. Make the placate aoe, remove the ST fear and replace it with a new power entirely. Add -range to the taunt and presence will be cool. What should the new power be? Lots of things, but i think a buff shout could be cool like the romans have. Doesn't even need to be a huge buff or anything really.

 

maybe a lil bit of recharge and some +tohit or maybe some +res or something who knows, shout buffs would be neat as hell though

 

 

 

[Luminara]

59 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

The combined terrorize could get Magnitude of 6 or 7

 

No developer with more than two functioning brain cells is going to make a pool power capable of controlling bosses and EBs with a single application.  That's not just imbalanced, it'd be impossible to balance.  It also fails to address any of the other problems resulting from your proposal.  Where's the discrete single-target and AoE option so players aren't paying extra endurance?  Where's the option with a shorter recharge time so they can use it more frequently (AoE formula calls for longer recharge times)?  This doesn't address the losses entailed, it condenses two powers into one that's even less versatile and useful.

 

1 hour ago, Purrfekshawn said:

everyone must have access to all-time Taunt Aura for convenience purposes

 

You wanting something doesn't make it a necessity.  You're not that important, princess.

[Shin Magmus]

13 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Presence is especially bad because the opportunity cost of taking Unrelenting is horrific. Make the placate aoe, remove the ST fear and replace it with a new power entirely. Add -range to the taunt and presence will be cool. What should the new power be? Lots of things, but i think a buff shout could be cool like the romans have. Doesn't even need to be a huge buff or anything really.

 

maybe a lil bit of recharge and some +tohit or maybe some +res or something who knows, shout buffs would be neat as hell though

 

 

 

Also Concealment's Capstone power is an AoE Placate, so it might not be feasible for there to ever be an AoE Placate in another pool powerset... for balance reasons.

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

remove the ST fear

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

Any suggestion which can be condensed down to "take from others and give to me" is selfish and inconsiderate, and deserves to burn on the shitheap.

 

[Super Atom]

@Luminara

 

It's not selfish, It's also already happened in this game numerous times, see blasters. You're also arguing for people who probably don't exist. I highly doubt anyone is going to be like

 

"No! My single target fear! THE CORNER STONE OF MY BUILD!"

 

The mindset that we can't change anything or update anything is a terrible one, bad game dev, and giving the original devs way too much credit in the assumption they didn't make mistakes.

 

Also, the other fear isn't going anywhere, is the same mag and recharges quickly with a half decent build. So removing the ST fear would change nothing.

Edited March 17 by Super Atom

[GM Tock]

Veni, vidi, amovi.

 

I came, I saw, I removed ... some posts.  Attack the idea, not the person, please.  Carry on.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

@Luminara

 

It's not selfish, It's also already happened in this game numerous times, see blasters. You're also arguing for people who probably don't exist. I highly doubt anyone is going to be like

 

"No! My single target fear! THE CORNER STONE OF MY BUILD!"

 

The mindset that we can't change anything or update anything is a terrible one, bad game dev, and giving the original devs way too much credit in the assumption they didn't make mistakes.

I wouldn't want this suggestion to be implemented.