[Let's Brainstorm] The Last 4 Incarnate Slots

[BurtHutt]

14 hours ago, JayboH said:

The end game challenge is the incarnate stuff.  Problem is that I don't see a ton of people actually running incarnate stuff.  They use their incarnate powers on regular content far more.  Once in awhile I see LFG planning an Underground Trial but I haven't for example seen a TPN trial advertised and I remember loving that one once people learned the pattern.

Excelsior LFG - lots of trials advertised there. TPN does pop up every now and then. 

 

Also, did you think players were not going to use incarnate powers in regular content??

[ThatGuyCDude]

5 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Also cannot emphasize how much I would not want shapeshifting powers thrust on my characters. 

Are you against the gameplay mechanic of having different powers swapped onto the character, or the narrative mechanic of changing shape?  Because the latter is addressed by tying the model swap to a new costume slot; you can use the same costume you're using if you don't need the visual cue that the ability is active.

If you're against the gameplay mechanic, I can understand that.  I personally HATE the Lore slot and I would love to replace it with something else.  I don't like managing pets, and I don't want to deal with their AI behavior.

 

As for 'thrusting', that's really not an accurate representation because these enhancements would be optional replacements in existing slots, as the feedback revision post linked from the first post indicates.

 

(Also, we're not going down the road of arguing my justifications in the first post.  Rudra already did that, it's done.  First post is only still up so the conversations that followed it make sense)

 

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Perhaps even new ways for the slots to be used… say a version of Judgment that instead of a nuke was a short period in you gained a set of high damage AoE attacks (i.e. instead of one huge nuke chain lightning, you get 30 seconds of being able to launch smaller less damaging chains with a 3s timer… basically akin to the water blast power that can be used twice in a row before going on cooldown).

That's what the revised idea linked from the first post is proposing; things to replace powers in existing slots.  I suppose we could drop the names of the new 'slots' completely (which weren't even going to be slots anymore, they were going to be enhancement recipes for existing slots), and just come up with more variants to the existing slots.  If we're doing that, then the ground area effects from the original 'Genesis' proposal would best fit as additional options for the Judgment slot.

[Sunsette]

38 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

As for 'thrusting', that's really not an accurate representation because these enhancements would be optional replacements in existing slots, as the feedback revision post linked from the first post indicates.

 

I'll cop to misreading this; not a failure of your writing, I simply failed to read correctly. I think dropping the 'slot' terminology will improve this, though.

 

Within the space of 'new options for Judgement and Lore slots', I can get behind that for reasons already expressed, though when new mechanics are involved deeper than a reskin of existing Judgement or choosing new pre-existing mobs to copy to the pet summon framework, I'm pretty wary.

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Also, did you think players were not going to use incarnate powers in regular content??

I must admit I'm curious:  what did I say that made you think I wouldn't think players would use their incarnate powers in regular content?

[Britannic]

You probably want to avoid costume altering transformations to these kind of powers, but maybe if there's a choice over what kind of alteration manifested that could work. Oddly, Mind could be the place for this. We have this from Lord Recluse's background:

 

Quote

"His back, through Stefan's focused manipulation of his dark power, began developing a hump which later was used to house eight massive arachnid-like arms. Upon further enhancement, the arms were outfitted with super-strong steel claws covering the flesh and bone "arms" that protruded from this hump, made from an alloy called proto-steel."

 

And that kind of mental focusing could also be why Tyrant grows so massive in his final confrontation, and might possibly explain Stheno's snake-like form too. On the other hand, there's clearly other alternatives since Statesman and Hero 1 never manifested such drastic physical manipulations themselves. Some sort of "state-of-matter" powers, that you will yourself into perhaps? Mind could have enchanments like a temporary pure energy form; pure dark form; and even just pure physical form, for those that didn't want to be concerned with how their character looked.

[CaptainMarvelous]

Plenty of discussion in other slots, but I wanna touch Omega specifically. IMO, I believe Omega should be the "Signature move" of your character. 

Batman has the Batarang, Goku has the Kamehameha, Spiderman has the web swing, etc etc. So many characters have THEIR THING. Their iconic power they get. I believe Omega should be that. When you get the omega slot, you essentially get a beavy of options and each one costs points to create something iconic and unique to you.

"But that'd make my char op!" Yeah, and the game is already a playground for busted characters. You'd need to gut the entire incarnate system and rework it from the ground up to make it a challenge again. Might as well have some fun with it. 

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, CaptainMarvelous said:

Plenty of discussion in other slots, but I wanna touch Omega specifically. IMO, I believe Omega should be the "Signature move" of your character. 

Batman has the Batarang, Goku has the Kamehameha, Spiderman has the web swing, etc etc. So many characters have THEIR THING. Their iconic power they get. I believe Omega should be that. When you get the omega slot, you essentially get a beavy of options and each one costs points to create something iconic and unique to you.

"But that'd make my char op!" Yeah, and the game is already a playground for busted characters. You'd need to gut the entire incarnate system and rework it from the ground up to make it a challenge again. Might as well have some fun with it. 

 

no problem with this suggestion however,

I do have a problem with the examples you listed because

batman throws batarangs like crazy

Goku shoots kamehamehas like crazy

and spiderman web swings like crazy

will this signature move be useful with a long recharge?

or cosmetic with a short one?

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

8 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

no problem with this suggestion however,

I do have a problem with the examples you listed because

batman throws batarangs like crazy

Goku shoots kamehamehas like crazy

and spiderman web swings like crazy

will this signature move be useful with a long recharge?

or cosmetic with a short one?

 

That'd come down to blance. In any game with some custom creation of abilities, you usually have to do a trade-off. Speed for power, single-target-nuke for AoE. Etc etc. 

In the example, I imagine you'd be designing it in a way that supports your character and has trade-offs. Maybe your signature move is a huge powerful attack you can do only once every ~5-10 minutes? Maybe your signature move is an ability you can spam but in turn it's not super powerful? I think both of those ideas are worth exploring in terms of a design space. 

I also think as a system it'd be prone to a bit of complexity, which could be seen as a positive or a negative. Yeah, someone will likely be able to min-max out "THE PERFECT ABILITY". It'd equally be likely aspiring designers make a skill they think is awesome but in practice ends up being hotdog water. And that's ok! A system like I proposed with that much experimentation, design and character introspection? I think it's fitting as the final slot as we wouldn't likelybe getting more.

[megaericzero]

Looking at tackling the Omega slot differently from Cap, it would be interesting to take what the dev AMA laid out and expanding on that. Perhaps looking to existing incarnate and other really powerful characters (lore or mechanically) for some abilities. (You can skip to the next yellow text; this next chunk is just me thinking out loud.)

 

To start with the dev AMA (as listed on Paragonwiki) :

"Q.) Do you have any insight as to what the Omega Incarnate Slot might be? The others seemed badass enough already. PBAoE kill everything?
A.) Jeff Hamilton would know. I don’t remember if this was Omega or not, but I know one of the latter tiers did allow you to nuke minions through your magnificence. There were also abilities that let you trade off one stat for another. (Hosun)
A) I’ve said this in a couple places but the primary trees which had been sketched out on paper were Arete (instant recharge on all powers for a period), Majesty (cause foes to instantly fight for you and then self-destruct), Infinity (summon doppelgangers of yourself), Transcendence (immune to everything and can attack into Phase), and Fulfillment (major PBAOE +Level Shifts) (Tim)"

 

Guessing from the wording that the part about trading one stat for another meant a different Incarnate slot so ignoring it. Watering the descriptions down, we have: another big damage aoe, insane recharge, some sort of confuse with a delayed explosion, clone pets, self invincible, and a level shift team buff. It's a stretch but some of these can be likened to existing characters/abilities (again, mechanics or lore) such as Statesman/Imperious' Hammer of Justice and/or Zeus' Lightning Bolt (big damage), Hamidon's infection - Will of the Earth, the Unity Plague, and so on (fight for you then explode), Trapdoor's bifurcation (doppelgangers), and (I did say this was a stretch) Tyrant's vying for power allowing him to deputize the other Praetorians to incarnate-level toughness (pbaoe level shifts). As I type this out, I realize you could also relate the "immune to everything" as Recluse's combined web buffs from the STF.

 

Another couple of somewhat-signature things from in-game are Ghost Widow's insane-mag hold and her suped-up version of Dark Regeneration from the STF as well as Reichsman's Aura of Domination (damage + end drain + tohit/rech debuff). Also, from Mender Ramiel's arc, the buff labeled Paradox Core Eternity which says complete invulnerability after time travel (but we'll ignore the time travel requirement).

 

So with that in mind:

Even just given what the AMA listed, the effects of these hypotheticals are drastically different from each other moreso than any existing slots. With the above spread, some possible Omega abilities could be...

 

Arete: Hasten's final form (which is technically included in Mender Ramiel's Incarntes-sampler mission since it caps all stats)

Apex (custom name): a second Judgment if you decide to take it (looking to States/Imperious' two signature attacks)

Fulfillment: now everyone's 50++++++++++++++....! (looking at how the Well empowered Tyrant's generals)

Infinity: summon clones (like Trapdoor, perhaps including his self-buff mechanic for the number of clones present)

Majesty: incarnate-level mass confusion + turn the minions into bombs (looking to Hamidon's ability to infect people)

Nexus (custom name): a pbaoe heal with an insane hold for survival/cc (combining GW's insane hold and self-heal from the STF; probably not mag 100 but something crazy)

Paradox: untouchable (not sure what else to pair it with since it's a binary effect)

Transcendence: "immune to everything" and attack phased foes (perhaps immune means to debuffs and mez, to differentiate it from Paradox's untouchable? - potentially looking at Recluse's web buffs from the STF for inspiration)

Zenith (custom name): psi damage aura with recurring end drain and tohit/rech debuff (taken from Reichsman's Aura of Domination)

 

Just some thoughts.

[BrandX]

The other day I was thinking that one of the remaining Incarnate slots could be passive...

 

Tier 1 +1% HP

Tier 2 +2% HP or +2% DMG

Tier 3  +2% HP/+1% DMG or +3% HP - +2% DMH/+1% DMG or +3% DMG

Tier 4 +4% HP/+2% DMG or +4% DMG/+2% HP

 

Something akin to this...but the combo of different passives...+END, +HP, +DMH, +ToHit, +Def, +Resist, +RCH...lots of options.

[suxxsharp]

as long as it gives me purple triangles, Omega can be whatever they want it to be.  But I should be able to punch a 54 AV in the head and laugh.

[MTeague]

I'm guessing I'm one of the (very) few who honestly consider Incarnates a huge mistake and would vastly prefer the original devs had never introduced them at all.

 

(Of course that ship has not only sailed, it has completed Magellen's Voyage over a hundred times...)

Edited Tuesday at 10:35 PM by MTeague

[Chris24601]

8 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm guessing I'm one of the (very) few who honestly consider Incarnates a huge mistake and would vastly prefer the original devs had never introduced them at all.

 

(Of course that ship has not only sailed, it has completed Magellen's Voyage over a hundred times...)

Not just you. It’s here, so I consider it a capstone for my toons to at least get the Alpha slot level shift, but if it had my druthers I’d have left it at the 50 cap and just added the Incarnate missions as just fun content to play.

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm guessing I'm one of the (very) few who honestly consider Incarnates a huge mistake and would vastly prefer the original devs had never introduced them at all.

 

(Of course that ship has not only sailed, it has completed Magellen's Voyage over a hundred times...)

I kind of sort of agree? I don't think adding incarnates to the game was a huge mistake. (Though with what @Greycat said about the planned later ones, yeah, that went entirely too far.) A lot of the incarnate content is just very fun and so are the powers. I think letting us use those powers outside of incarnate content was the huge mistake. However, like you said, that ship has long since sailed.

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

Though with what @Greycat said about the planned later ones, yeah, that went entirely too far.

With the additional four levels of incarnate boosts, the devs would have had to completely rebuild the way the missions worked, and likely would have had to introduce gatekeeping to each level, because the uprating of the mobs you'd be facing would likely "tear you a structurally superfluous new behind" (to quote the Engineer) if you didn't have the appropriate upgrades. I suspect that it would have been a balance nightmare that the devs could poke at for years without ever getting right, but being unwilling to admit was never going to be workable.

[Greycat]

On 4/23/2025 at 10:41 AM, srmalloy said:

With the additional four levels of incarnate boosts, the devs would have had to completely rebuild the way the missions worked, and likely would have had to introduce gatekeeping to each level, because the uprating of the mobs you'd be facing would likely "tear you a structurally superfluous new behind" (to quote the Engineer) if you didn't have the appropriate upgrades. I suspect that it would have been a balance nightmare that the devs could poke at for years without ever getting right, but being unwilling to admit was never going to be workable.

 

Well, they were also planning on essentially *obsoleting* previous incarnate powers as the tree got higher.. .so yeah, good none of that happened.

[mistagoat]

26 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Well, they were also planning on essentially *obsoleting* previous incarnate powers as the tree got higher.. .so yeah, good none of that happened.

Any more details on that Greycat? Does that mean when you hit tier 5 your tier 1 would stop functioning?

[Championess]

I like the incarnate concept and content that followed.  I would like to see the last 4 incarnate abilities and corresponding tougher content.  Being able to use incarnates in regular prior content has kind of trivialized it yes. 

 

If they were to add the last 4 there'd have to be a mechanic that you can only have one of a pair of incarnates available.  Like if you had both Omega and Alpha you could only have one of the two active.  So that sure we'll add the 4 more incarnates planned out but you can only have 6 of the 10 active.  I know a pair would mean limiting it to 5 but I say 6 so that it wouldn't seem lile a nerf to what it currently is.

Edited Friday at 09:18 PM by Championess

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Championess said:

I like the incarnate concept and content that followed.  I would like to see the last 4 incarnate abilities and corresponding tougher content.  Being able to use incarnates in regular prior content has kind of trivialized it yes. 

 

If they were to add the last 4 there'd have to be a mechanic that you can only have one of a pair of incarnates available.  Like if you had both Omega and Alpha you could only have one of the two active.  So that sure we'll add the 4 more incarnates planned out but you can only have 6 of the 10 active.

Or just make them so that they only function in incarnate content.

[Championess]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Or just make them so that they only function in incarnate content.

The ensuing moaning I'm certain would be unbearable.  Some compromise could be made sure.  Admittedly I've gotten very used to Barrier Destiny and have too much fun with Judgements.  I'd hate to lose those and my Alpha on my 50's on a lot of the endgame content.  

 

I'm sure they could limit certain incarnates like they did for pvp.  

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, Championess said:

The ensuing moaning I'm certain would be unbearable.  Some compromise could be made sure.  Admittedly I've gotten very used to Barrier Destiny and have too much fun with Judgements.  I'd hate to lose those and my Alpha on my 50's on a lot of the endgame content.  

 

I'm sure they could limit certain incarnates like they did for pvp.  

You misunderstand. I'm pretty sure there is no way existing incarnate powers will be changed to only function in incarnate content. That ship is long since sailed. However, the new incarnate content being asked for can be restricted to just incarnate content so as to not render the game any easier than it has already gotten.

[Championess]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You misunderstand. I'm pretty sure there is no way existing incarnate powers will be changed to only function in incarnate content. That ship is long since sailed. However, the new incarnate content being asked for can be restricted to just incarnate content so as to not render the game any easier than it has already gotten.

 

I read it as you wanting to remove incarnate powers from lvl 45+ non incarnate content.  That would cause quite a ruckus. Which you more clarified.

 

I'm saying if ever there were to be 4 more added they could make it so you could only have 6 active so you'd have to give up one of the first ones to play any content, present and future, incarnate or not.

 

I'd assume that'd be a lot easier to lock incarnates out at the power level rather then retroactively coding what content is allowed what powers.

Edited Friday at 10:02 PM by Championess

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

I read it as you wanting to remove incarnate powers from lvl 45+ non incarnate content.  That would cause quite a ruckus. Which you more clarified.

 

I'm saying if ever there were to be 4 more added they could make it so you could only have 6 active so you'd have to give up one of the first ones to play any content, present and future, incarnate or not.

 

I'd assume that'd be a lot easier to lock incarnates out at the power level rather then retroactively coding what content is allowed what powers.

What retroactive coding? We don't have the last 4 tiers of the original tree. And we already have things that only work in incarnate content. (See Masterminds and their all equal level in incarnate content minions.)

[Championess]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What retroactive coding? We don't have the last 4 tiers of the original tree. And we already have things that only work in incarnate content. (See Masterminds and their all equal level in incarnate content minions.)

 

The Destiny Barrier Core is a huge force multiplier.  I can't imagine if one of the remaining 4 would be as good as those Destiny powers.  But also limiting themselves from not making one as good as those would be kneecapping creativity afforded them.  They could make a good one but tie it to Destiny so you can only have one of the 2 active.

 

I'm thinking more in terms of Hardmode content, the rest of the game is pretty cake as it is so whats it matter. 

 

Hardmode is already tuned pretty well for the current incarnates.  If they came up with 4 more it would be lame not to be able to have access to them on HM content since 4stars are intended for you to bring your best self.  But having 4 more incarnates added into play would likely make them much easier if you're getting to use all 10.  They'd have to constantly rebalance HM to keep pace.  It'd be easier to do things to make you sacrifice having Destinys or Judgements.  

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

The Destiny Barrier Core is a huge force multiplier.  I can't imagine if one of the remaining 4 would be as good as those Destiny powers.  But also limiting themselves from not making one as good as those would be kneecapping creativity afforded them.  They could make a good one but tie it to Destiny so you can only have one of the 2 active.

 

I'm thinking more in terms of Hardmode content, the rest of the game is pretty cake as it is so whats it matter. 

 

Hardmode is already tuned pretty well for the current incarnates.  If they came up with 4 more it would be lame not to be able to have access to them on HM content since 4stars are intended for you to bring your best self.  But having 4 more incarnates added into play would likely make them much easier if you're getting to use all 10.  They'd have to constantly rebalance HM to keep pace.  It'd be easier to do things to make you sacrifice having Destinys or Judgements.  

What are you talking about?! I already said the existing incarnate branches would not be changed.

 

As far as Hard Mode goes, that would be a dev call as to whether it counts as incarnate powers were a factor in their design. And even if Advanced Mode content didn't count and we could not use the not made 4 branches of incarnate powers, we still would not be losing anything. And if Advanced Mode content did allow for the other 4 branches, Advanced Mode content is not designed with those powers in mind, so Advanced Mode content would no longer be "tuned pretty well" because now we would have even more power to bring to bear in content that is not designed for it. And if the other 4 branches are stronger than the current 6, then you know full well the weakest of the 6 would be dropped in favor of the new 4, so any balance Advanced Mode content has for incarnate powers would still be out the window because players would only be using the most powerful branches. And if the other 4 branches are not stronger, then odds are the current 6 would still be the ones chosen.