Why is Kinetic Melee still bad?

[eiynp]

It’s fine in the sense that you’ll do damage and the games easy so performance doesn’t really matter, but compared to other/similar sets (e.g. energy melee) it’s basically just worse.

 

and if we’re honest that might be okay; DP is an example of a set that isn’t high performing but is still satisfying to play. KM by contrast is both low performance and frustrating, since its animations are long and it has pretty limited aoe. It would be nice if it got an energy focus-esque mechanic to speed some of the later attacks up a bit

[Marshal_General]

Maybe it's problem is sound effects.

If you are going to use Jazz Hands, shouldn't you hear jazz during the attack?

 

Hit somebody with the force of several Kenny Gs.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Most of the people I know who are extremely good at building in this game -- and I don't include myself, I'm pretty reasonable in some particular areas but I'm no master -- have their mechanical appraisals entirely separate from what they actually enjoy playing. I have been privy to discussions a few times about how rarely any builders actually play fire blasters, for example. It is widely agreed to be the best blaster for most things due to the sheer damage differential. It's also agreed to be boring to many of those same people. 

I agree. Not that I would say I'm "extremely good" at building (I'm fairly knowledgeable over the last 20 years of building toons, but I'm always up for some theory crafting discussion because there's so many ways to build a character, and I can always learn something new), but this is precisely why I don't have a fire/fire blaster. Yes they do a metric ton of damage and you can speed run an ITF in 7 minutes and change with them, but they just don't seem that interesting to me.

 

There's only one elemental themed toon that I've matched elements on in around 250 or so IO'd lvl 50s (incidentally it was my most recent toon a fire/fire tanker), but it's generally more fun to find synergy between sets that might not have been intentional and to come up with an interesting concept for the toon.

 

Otherwise in regards to Kin Melee, sure it could use a balance pass. Quite a few people have requested changes to it over the years (myself included), but I don't think it needs to be the flavor of the week, but rather some dedicated tweaks to help improve it's overall gameplay.

Edited March 21 by SeraphimKensai

[Herotu]

21 hours ago, Snarky said:

Someone should try to clean it up.  But...

 

[ZemX]

46 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

Maybe it's problem is sound effects.

If you are going to use Jazz Hands, shouldn't you hear jazz during the attack?

 

I once heard KM called "NASCAR Melee" and now I want to roll one up and see if I can play the entire game only making left turns.

[Sovera]

To top it the thread is not even looking at Concentrated Strike from the viewpoint of the non-crit ATs.

 

Sure, for Stalkers and Scrappers you use CS, maybe get your crit, get your BU reset, etc. But what of Brute and Tanker? No crits, and no changes to CS either. It gets all the downsides of CS but no reset to the BU meaning what point is there to use it?

 

I've tried it several times and have a KM of each AT at 50 leveled the old fashioned way and though it begins fun while facing mobs under level 20 with the chainsaw attacks it quickly falls off. Burst can do similar things to Dragontail to speed a build up but the ST fails to catch up.

 

 

That said there is no need to make a big seven headed hydra out of this. It has not been tuned up because it just hasn't passed by the dev's hands due to several other things having been done instead. Once it does it will be good. They have a good track record of tuning lagging sets into becoming actually desirable.

[Eldyem]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

and steals Concentrated Strike's crit potential as a balance measure.

 

I'm going to highlight this - any set that has a mechanic that replaces crits is probably going to feel bad unless that mechanic is just very, very strong. Hitting a crit feels good. This goes double for a "crit" that can potentially do nothing because the associated power isn't recharging to begin with or is very close to being back up.

It doesn't help that Power Siphon often feels worse than Build Up in practice because you can't really Power Siphon > Burst the way you might want to. Another issue is that Repulsing Torrent has anti-synergy with the only other form of AoE in the set. There's a lot of interesting pieces that don't really work well together.

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

I once heard KM called "NASCAR Melee" and now I want to roll one up and see if I can play the entire game only making left turns.

politically or emotionally?

[ZemX]

33 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

politically or emotionally?

 

Neither?

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

see if I can play the entire game only making left turns.

 

Turn left, save The Doctor!  TURN LEFT!

[Yomo Kimyata]

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

i.e.:

- Concentrated Strike now has the longest animation of all comparable attacks. It used to be it was one of the most powerful Scrapper attacks too, but many powerful Tanker sets were proliferated since

- Power Siphon was great back in the day, but Musculature Alpha + Assault Hybrid + damage bonuses + Gaussian BU have taken a lot of wind out of builds that rely on constant +damage buffing

- likewise, the existence of epic snipes also hurt KM relatively, in two different ways. First it forces a tradeoff between using a snipe and maintaining max PS buffs, a choice other Scrappers don't have to make. Second it lessens the value of your native ranged attack in Focused Burst

- Burst was a very slow animation and poor AoE to start with, and as a couple of other laggard sets got buffs, KM is now firmly last spot for AOE power

- no real "tier3" attack option without proc abuse, Focused Burst animates a smidge too slow

 

I find it interesting that 80% of your points are literally about power creep of other sets, not about the mechanics or playability of Kinetic Melee itself.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Sure, for Stalkers and Scrappers you use CS, maybe get your crit, get your BU reset, etc. But what of Brute and Tanker? No crits, and no changes to CS either. It gets all the downsides of CS but no reset to the BU meaning what point is there to use it?

 

This is an incredibly valid point.  I also *believe* (i.e., haven't wasted enough time getting data) that the Critical Strikes ATO does not affect Concentrated Strike crit chances (and therefore resetting Power Siphon).  I will be happy to be proven wrong, but anecdotally I get about 20% when the CS proc is active as opposed to 70%.

[ZemX]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I also *believe* (i.e., haven't wasted enough time getting data) that the Critical Strikes ATO does not affect Concentrated Strike crit chances (and therefore resetting Power Siphon).  I will be happy to be proven wrong, but anecdotally I get about 20% when the CS proc is active as opposed to 70%.

 

You appear to be correct according to City of Data.  There is a 20% chance to recharge Power Siphon in Concentrated Strike's effects list.  It is not tagged with a Scrapper "crit" tag, meaning it is not affected by Critical Strikes global chance mod.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

You appear to be correct according to City of Data.  There is a 20% chance to recharge Power Siphon in Concentrated Strike's effects list.  It is not tagged with a Scrapper "crit" tag, meaning it is not affected by Critical Strikes global chance mod.

 

And that, my friends, is a stone cold drag.

[Pleonast]

My one, and only, level-50 character is a Willpower/Kinetic-Melee Tanker. (In Live, my highest character was a 40-something Claws/Regeneration Scrapper. Never got to 50 then.) I spend about 99% of my play time on that WP/KM Tanker. It's probably worthwhile to share my thoughts, although they're certainly idiosyncratic. I suspect that anyone who plays KM almost exclusively is also an atypical player.

 

My WP/KM Tanker was started in April 2019 when I discovered Homecoming. Why did I choose this combo? Two reasons: I wanted something steadier than the Regen scrapper. And I wanted something that fit my idea of Captain Marvel. Willpower seemed like the best fit thematically (and vaguely similar to Regen). And Kinetic Melee seemed better than Martial Arts (too much Smash) or Energy Melee (less range). I like the Smash/Energy type combo, and especially the straight-up ranged attack.

 

I've taken all the powers in KM, except Power Siphon and Taunt. I'm about to remove Hasten in order to take Taunt. I just don't like the feel of click-buff/debuff powers. It makes the character too unreliable, with the fluctuation in effectiveness depending on the click being up or down. My typical attack chain is Smashing Blow -> Quick Strike -> Body Blow -> Quick Strike -> one of the other powers based on circumstances. I like the choice of a single-target melee, single-target range, cone, or AoE. (For an earlier comment about Burst not seeming to hit the expected targets--the affected targets are determined when Burst is clicked. Mobs moving in or out of range while you're animating does not change who could be hit. Repulsing Torrent works the same.)

 

I don't have a good point of comparison to other Tanker secondaries, so I can't say it feels slow or weak. I run my missions at the default +0x1, I never die, and get missions done quickly enough to satisfy me. That's not a good basis for balancing, obviously.

 

Any buff to KM would be welcome by me, of course. I'll never take Power Siphon unless it's a toggle power without a timed switch-off. Please don't balance the set around the assumption that any power in particular is being used (that is, lack of any one power shouldn't make the set useless).

[Jacke]

I have a KM/Ninjitsu Scrapper winding his way through Goldside.

 

I think @Luminara covered the issues with Kinetic Melee quite well.

 

One thing that could be done is having the use of an attack while Power Siphon is running giving its +Damage whether it hits or not.  Similar changes have been done to other Melee Powersets like Dual Blades' Combos.

 

On 3/21/2024 at 2:19 PM, Marshal_General said:

...where everyone has so much acc and to hit, that they rarely miss.

 

I take it you've never played a certain game family....

 

Spoiler

Even if that hit percentage is 98% or 99%, don't trust it!  That's XCOM, baby!

 

 

Edited March 23 by Jacke

[KingCeddd03]

On 3/20/2024 at 3:01 PM, Ruin Mage said:

because development from volunteers is based on personal interest, time available, and (guessing here) making sure the idea works in execution.

Personal interest should not be a thing when you are serving the community. 

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

Personal interest should not be a thing when you are serving the community. 

 

They don't work for us.  They don't "serve" anyone.  They aren't an elected body, they're not on salary, they don't work from a list of directives compiled by others.  They're not our employees.  Don't be a douche.

[Ruin Mage]

15 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

Personal interest should not be a thing when you are serving the community. 

I forgot the world revolves you. My bad!

[KingCeddd03]

7 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

I forgot the world revolves you. My bad!

By comment what made you think that? LOLOLOLOL bro you silly 

[KingCeddd03]

If you're trying to continue a well-beloved game, there should be only the interest of the player base if you disregard what the PLAYERS including you are saying or asking for that means you never cared in the first place and this is a way to get money and fame @Luminara and excepting donations is a form of payment. 

[Ruin Mage]

Okay, since you really want to open this can of worms.

1.) Donations
These are an optional way for people to contribute, but do not come with entitlement to anything. It is not a subscription fee, it is not a "buy" - you are choosing to donate of your free will. Would the servers still be up without donations? Who knows! What we do know is that this isn't like a WoW private server where you can donate for items, boosts, or some VIP service. None of the other servers do that.

2.) What Players Want
Fun fact: The Devs are players too! The server they are developing is the server THEY want to see. That's what we're getting. Do we often get suggestions made into reality? Sure! Is it all the time and to every last detail? Absolutely fucking not. That's not how it works, that's not how it has ever worked, and that's generally accepted. Not everyone on these forums have good ideas for game design - even design for a licensed server like ours.

It is entitled whining coming from you and I can read you like a book on this. To say the devs don't care just because they're putting their interests into the mix is shitty and stupid of you to do. It's THEIR free time they are spending on Homecoming. There is no pay for them for this. There is only the gratification of seeing their work touched by others and producing what they think is cool/what aligns with what direction the server is going.

[KingCeddd03]

5 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

Okay, since you really want to open this can of worms.

1.) Donations
These are an optional way for people to contribute, but do not come with entitlement to anything. It is not a subscription fee, it is not a "buy" - you are choosing to donate of your free will. Would the servers still be up without donations? Who knows! What we do know is that this isn't like a WoW private server where you can donate for items, boosts, or some VIP service. None of the other servers do that.

2.) What Players Want
Fun fact: The Devs are players too! The server they are developing is the server THEY want to see. That's what we're getting. Do we often get suggestions made into reality? Sure! Is it all the time and to every last detail? Absolutely fucking not. That's not how it works, that's not how it has ever worked, and that's generally accepted. Not everyone on these forums have good ideas for game design - even design for a licensed server like ours.

It is entitled whining coming from you and I can read you like a book on this. To say the devs don't care just because they're putting their interests into the mix is shitty and stupid of you to do. It's THEIR free time they are spending on Homecoming. There is no pay for them for this. There is only the gratification of seeing their work touched by others and producing what they think is cool/what aligns with what direction the server is going.

First off sir or whatever you are I'm have never whined about anything I am stating my opinion of things and I see I have stuck a nerve by you cussing as if you the child who can't handle their convo. as I have said before it no longer becomes about them when everyone is involved. Now go sit in the conner.

[Ruin Mage]

15 minutes ago, KingCeddd03 said:

as I have said before it no longer becomes about them when everyone is involved.

And you are wrong, but its okay to be wrong.

It is about them because it's about what they want to do when they have the time. They can try to take our ideas/suggestions and try to implement them. It happened with PVP stuff over the years. It's happened with the RP community here and there. But they aren't going to do everything we suggest. It isn't our server to dictate things and it never has been. If you want a server like that? You can certainly try looking elsewhere. But no one that is developing content of any form is beholden to the community - this much is true across any rogue/private server since the inception of them.

I'm pretty sure that no one asked for Seismic Blast, Symphony Control, Hard Modes, Electrical Affinity, Energy Melee Revamp, or plenty of other keystone changes. Now, they HAVE done some highly requested things at times. Such as the Sybil robes for females. They've also taken community members costume patterns before if I remember right. These things can happen, but they are by no means any under obligation to forgo their interests just because the server exists. This does not change just because donations are a thing. Donation is not a buy-in as I said before. Running the server/making content for the server does not come at the cost of their interests. Believing otherwise is a delusion plain and simple.

Want to have a say in development?:
- Make sure to test stuff on the Open Beta Server when there's a new Page/Issue.
- Find your way to the Beta Tester Discord
- Apply to be a developer.

There's your three choices.

Edited March 24 by Ruin Mage

[KingCeddd03]

12 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

And you are wrong, but its okay to be wrong.

It is about them because it's about what they want to do when they have the time. They can try to take our ideas/suggestions and try to implement them. It happened with PVP stuff over the years. It's happened with the RP community here and there. But they aren't going to do everything we suggest. It isn't our server to dictate things and it never has been. If you want a server like that? You can certainly try looking elsewhere. But no one that is developing content of any form is beholden to the community - this much is true across any rogue/private server since the inception of them.

I'm pretty sure that no one asked for Seismic Blast, Symphony Control, Hard Modes, Electrical Affinity, Energy Melee Revamp, or plenty of other keystone changes. Now, they HAVE done some highly requested things at times. Such as the Sybil robes for females. They've also taken community members costume patterns before if I remember right. These things can happen, but they are by no means any under obligation to forgo their interests just because the server exists. This does not change just because donations are a thing. Donation is not a buy-in as I said before. Running the server/making content for the server does not come at the cost of their interests. Believing otherwise is a delusion plain and simple.

Want to have a say in development? Go apply to be developer.

Being a developer is not my thing, but I will continue to voice my opinion.