kheldians My hopes for the Kheldian Rework - PeaceBringer

[Laucianna]

So the following changes are what I would like to see out of the eventual Kheldian rework, I may add to it if I see any suggestions that I also think would help make the AT more viable and fun without having to rely on the Changeling bindings.

I will mainly focus of PeaceBringers in this as that is what I play and although I know a good amount about WarShades I would rather give my opinion on the AT I do play ❤️ 

Overall changes

"Minimal FX"
One of the biggest things people request with Kheldians is the ability to not require to shapeshift into the (In my opinion) cool forms to attack, so a minimal FX option that greatly reduces the visual effect of the form similar to Bio Armour would help a ton with this with the options below.

Dwarf form - Spectral Lobster arms over yours.

Nova Form - Spectral back tentacles similar to the comics.
 

 

"Combat Flight animation"
Simple option of allowing PeaceBringers the option to use the combat flight animation rather then having to use the fly pose.

 

"Power pools usable in forms (Where possible)"

This would add a linking factor between the 3 forms and allow for some interesting power pool choices. However things like Cross punch could not be used in Nova and Arcane Bolt is unusable in Dwarf.

 

"Epic power pools"
VEATs get access to Patron pools but we do not get access to Epic pools and would allow for more options for playing a Kheldian.

 

"Damage cap raised to 500%"

Both PeaceBringers and WarShades are meant to to fill damage dealer roles but do not get the same maximum damage bonus as the other damage dealers, so it should be raised to a 500% cap

 

Intended Stats:

Survivability - 8 (Same as Brute)

Would be nice if we got access to the same damage resist caps as Brutes to match.

 

Melee Damage - 6 (Same as Dominator)

We are currently quite a bit weaker then dominator in terms of ST damage so we would need a buff to our damage to compete.

 

Ranged Damage - 7 (Same as Sentinel)

We need a HUGE buff in damage for this as our ranged damage is not only a ton weaker then a sentinels, but it's even lower then our Melee damage.

 

Crowd Control - 3

Support - 3

Pets - 2
 

Inherent

 

Focus on the forms instead of relying on a team - weaker scrapper inherent for human (10% crit chance on melee attacks), weaker tanker inherent for dwarf (Small AOE taunt on attacks), weaker blaster inherent for nova (Staking damage bonus for 5 seconds).
Atm our inherent doesn’t play into what makes a Kheldian unique (It’s multiple forms) and honestly fits the Nictus more than a Kheldian which might work lore wise for a WarShade, but makes 0 sense on why a PeaceBringer would have it.

 

Human Form

 

Swap the intended damage scaling of the human and dwarf form so Human is the more melee damage form.
I would rather encourage people wanting to do melee damage to do so in human form than just sticking in Dwarf.
Human melee damage 0.8 -> 1.0
Dwarf melee damage 1.0 -> 0.8

 

Human shields also grant a 3.11 debuff protection to a certain kind of debuff. (For example: Shining = Defense, Thermal = Endurance, Quantum = Recharge)
With Light Form there the shields' current only purpose is as mules or looks, and we have 3 of them, this will give each of them desirable for different builds and situations.

 

Dwarf Form

 

A small 2.5% -def aura to the form for a constant AOE taunt whilst remaining in the form.
There is no real reason to stay in Dwarf mode if you are tanking once you have hit taunt and flare for the aoe taunt, this will encourage PeaceBringers to stay in this form for longer if they are intending to tank and the –def suits the rest of their powerset.

 

3.11 debuff protection and a 5% all def.
We have no other way to get this without incarnates and some enhancements and against some foes you might as well be butter to their hot knife with their debuffs (Not great for a tank form).

[arkieboy72472]

After playing a warshade quite a bit, most of my complaints are about powers themselves and numbers things.
 

Dwarf: I would like the taunt in dwarf form to have a higher cap than 5. If we can’t get a heal like a PB or a taunt aura like a tank, consider raising our damage cap. I am fine with things as they are for the most part. I would like the ability to slot healing also. If the attacks don’t already, I would like -recharge added to them. Some secondary effect at least. No real way to add defense, but that isn’t a deal breaker.
 

Nova: I would also like a damage cap raise here as well. Since we lack real resistance, maybe the ability to slot defense. The amount of complaints I get about my attacks doing knock back isn’t good either. I do not want to have to waste a slot on a KB IO like I do with Quasar. We don’t have enough slots as it is. If the attacks don’t do -recharge, I would like that or some secondary effect added to them. Other than that, Nova is fine. 
 

Human: The weaknesses I see are -endurance attacks (toggle drop is a death sentence on a kheldian) and the huge “Mez Hole” we have. We don’t have much in the way of mitigation. Sure we can have resist toggles and global set bonuses, but that to me isn’t enough. If we are going to have a higher threat level, we need something. Human form is essential to a kheldian, especially a warshade, but we only want to be in the form as little as possible. I think attacks being loaded with knockback is the lazy way to handle the secondary effect. We need our own epic pool or at least the ability to have something that goes across all 3 forms beside damage, resists, and set bonuses. Oh, and the Psi attack hole….not a fan, but whatever.

 

The last thing I can think of is the alpha slot. There is no real solid for an alpha slot for us. No real defense to buff, No need to buff resists as we have a power that does that. No real reason to buff damage as we have powers and team mates that can do that. No real reason to buff recharge as you can get to high levels with hasten and set bonuses. There is no secondary attack effect to buff. That leaves us with lousy choices. Every choice is meh.
 

I have no issues with any other incarnate thing. I have no issues with any asthetic. The powers look fine. I like the way things work and act. I don’t mind being crab bro or squid bro. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by arkieboy72472

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

 If we can’t get a heal like a PB

 

You *do* have a heal. Several. If you're looking at Dwarf, one of your attacks is ... a heal. And don't forget the nice, big one in human form once you have some dead enemies.

 

9 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

Nova: I would also like a damage cap raise here as well. Since we lack real resistance, maybe the ability to slot defense. The amount of complaints I get about my attacks doing knock back isn’t good either. I do not want to have to waste a slot on a KB IO like I do with Quasar. We don’t have enough slots as it is. If the attacks don’t do -recharge, I would like that or some secondary effect added to them. Other than that, Nova is fine. 

(snip)

 

Human: The weaknesses I see are -endurance attacks (toggle drop is a death sentence on a kheldian) and the huge “Mez Hole” we have. We don’t have much in the way of mitigation. Sure we can have resist toggles and global set bonuses, but that to me isn’t enough. If we are going to have a higher threat level, we need something. Human form is essential to a kheldian, especially a warshade, but we only want to be in the form as little as possible. I think attacks being loaded with knockback is the lazy way to handle the secondary effect. We need our own epic pool or at least the ability to have something that goes across all 3 forms beside damage, resists, and set bonuses. Oh, and the Psi attack hole….not a fan, but whatever.

 

The last thing I can think of is the alpha slot. There is no real solid for an alpha slot for us. No real defense to buff, No need to buff resists as we have a power that does that. No real reason to buff damage as we have powers and team mates that can do that. No real reason to buff recharge as you can get to high levels with hasten and set bonuses. There is no secondary attack effect to buff. That leaves us with lousy choices. Every choice is meh.
 

I have no issues with any other incarnate thing. I have no issues with any asthetic. The powers look fine. I like the way things work and act. I don’t mind being crab bro or squid bro. 

 

[arcane]

Do whatever you want as long as changeling binds/macros are nuked from orbit. I won’t play Kheldians until that exploit is patched.

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Do whatever you want as long as changeling binds/macros are nuked from orbit. I won’t play Kheldians until that exploit is patched.

The devs have said they will remove the changeling binds once the rework happens ❤️ These are just suggestions on ways to keep the AT useful without having to rely on them 🙂 

[JasperStone]

I have used ingame keymapping for power access almost since day one!

 

Pretty easy to change forms, and it never bothered me.

 

Shift Numpad 4, 5, and 6 to access tray two and forms.

I can cycle very quickly through them ...

 

But .... sure if that change is deemed necessary for everyone else.

Sure.

[arkieboy72472]

10 hours ago, Laucianna said:

The devs have said they will remove the changeling binds once the rework happens ❤️ These are just suggestions on ways to keep the AT useful without having to rely on them 🙂 

What are these or is this? I am out of the loop. Have I been unknowingly abusing something?

[arkieboy72472]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:28 AM, Greycat said:

 

You *do* have a heal. Several. If you're looking at Dwarf, one of your attacks is ... a heal. And don't forget the nice, big one in human form once you have some dead enemies.

 

 

What I meant is that every heal we have depends on something whether it is a dead body (which is freaking sweet) or a tohit check (not so much.) I was wanting a click heal or the ability to slot for healing.
 

I realize that with character concept, heals being tied to attacks and dead body heals (which is cool btw) are on brand. I am not complaining about that. Just like with peace bringer, I don’t want to break character concept or brand in warshade to get what I want. I realize they are all about bodies alive and dead and I love that.

 

i don’t trust any heal in human form because human form has no mez protection. We have limited mitigation. My human form stays locked down (when i swap in battle) most of the time anyways.

Edited March 31, 2024 by arkieboy72472

[Laucianna]

14 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

What are these or is this? I am out of the loop. Have I been unknowingly abusing something?

Changeling binds, I mention them on my guide with videos showing them in action. If you have seen a Kheldian rapidly changing forms and attacking that is what a changeling is, the devs have allowed it to stay in the game until the rework 🙂 

[BrandX]

Honestly, while I wouldn't be against it, I've had no issue with 85% Resist on my PB.

[Laucianna]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

Honestly, while I wouldn't be against it, I've had no issue with 85% Resist on my PB.

Neither have I personally, but trying to keep it in line with the numbers they are suggesting we are equal to it would make sense for us to be at 90% 🙂 I just wanted to add all the things I would like to see happen so the Devs can see and possible take even 1 or 2 things from it ❤️ 

[BurtHutt]

Is there a Kheld rework happening? I enjoy both of them but they sure aren't my top end toons. 

 

Some changes would be nice 🙂 

[biostem]

I know the devs are loathe to implement mutually exclusive options for powers, (like what we got with SR's status protection power for Sentinels), but it'd be really cool if they offered versions of Nova & Dwarf that only provided the passive effects of the toggles, (so no form changing or extra powers), but kept you in human form, with these alternate powers also *not* locking you out of your other powers...

Edited April 3, 2024 by biostem

[Whitest Light]

As a PB player, I guess I'd want to start with "What is the intended role of a PB?" When they were first introduced on Live, they were supposed to be "the ultimate teammate" but I don't believe the meta suits that in any capacity now. 

 

The OP's points are good. I especially like some of the base modifier tweaks, especially concerning damage. PB single-target damage feels very low, not necessarily because the powers are bad but you have long animations, knockback that forces you to chase enemies, etc. Personally, I couldn't care less about having access to Epic Pool Powers or having Pool Powers available while shapeshifted. I have enough powers to manage as-is. 

 

My personal vision for Kheldians is to really lean into form-switching. That's what makes them unique compared to other ATs, rather than poorer versions of other existing ATs. 

 

To that end, regarding PBs: (this is a re-post in another thread): 

 

#1a. Make both Nova and Dwarf forms inherent powers at 4 and 20, respectively. That means every Kheldian is Tri-Form now and you can balance around it. It also saves 2 power picks.

 

#1b. All duplicate powers (or near-duplicates) share a single slotting between Human and shapeshifted forms. Gleaming/Nova Bolt, Proton/Nova Scatter, Luminous/Nova Detonation, Gleaming/Nova Blast, Radiant/Dwarf Strike, Incandescent/Dwarf Smite, Reform Essence/Dwarf Sublimation, etc. That saves a ton of slots and makes it so the powers/forms never get "left behind" because you can't afford to slot them. If you don't pick up, say, Proton Scatter in Human Form you don't get the power just because Nova Form has it but if you do pick it up, you don't have to slot Nova Form. 

 

#2. The Human Shields need to add incomplete Mez protection of some kind. Shining might offer knockback and immobilization. Thermal offers hold, sleep. Quantum adds stun, terrorize, etc. If you get all three, you get full protection, though maybe only Mag 3 like Light Form. The point being, you shouldn't have to rely on Dwarf for mez protection nor have to wait until Light Form. It also makes the shields more valuable early and possibly worthwhile to use even when Light Form comes around. 

 

#4. Inner Light and Light Form (maybe Essence Boost?) should be accessible from all forms. I'm ok with toggles and other click powers staying Human-only but these click powers are Kheldian-specific and carry over anyway so dropping to Human just to click them feels unnecessary.

 

#5. Make Photon Seekers "true" albeit short-lived pets. For 55 out of 60 seconds, they are non-suicidal light balls that shoot Gleaming Bolts. In the last 5 seconds, they operate as they currently do. The player can manually activate their suicidal approach by setting them to Aggressive. 

 

#6. Replace Glinting Eye for the equivalent of a light melee attack like Barrage from Energy Melee. The choice between a melee and ranged attack at the beginning communicates that the PB mixes it up at range and melee. Second, the single-target chain for PBs in melee is lacking a "light" attack filler between Radiant Strike and I Strike. This Barrage-like ability could replace the current "Dwarf Bolt" attack somewhat shoehorned in. The loser in this exchange is Nova, where Glinting Eye was actually pretty strong but it has two ST blasts as it is and if 1b occurs, Nova Bolt might be slotted.

 

#7. Pulsar needs help. Redesign, make it available in Nova form (?), I don't know. I know I've never used it and I can't recall seeing anyone else use it either.

 

Finally, the inherent. Renamed: "Kheldian Shift." This is where Kheldians could really shine as shapeshifters. Switching forms and attacking causes a Kheldian to gain Shift utilizing a bar like Fury. Attacks immediately following a form switch generate their full Shift values but have rapid diminishing returns. If you stay in one form long enough (~10 seconds), or don't attack, the returns are too low to sustain the bar level. As Shift builds, the Kheldian enjoys improved Recharge, Damage, and Recovery up to 100% (1% per Shift %). Shift does not accrue or decay as quickly as Fury and is primarily based on the relative endurance costs of attacks (stronger attacks generate more). At Shift levels above 50%, Kheldians impart 20% of their total Shift bonus to nearby teammates. I.e. a PB has 50% Shift - the PB gets +50% Recharge/Damage/Recovery and all teammates have +10% of the same.

 

The logic here is to incentivize switching forms. It can be back and forth between two forms or utilize all three. The more you switch, attack and switch, the more Shift you build. Kheldians would be known for getting stronger as they fight while also helping nearby teammates. Also, the inherent cuts down on the absolute need for Hasten/Global Recharge to sustain Perma-Lightform, Eclipse, Hasten, etc. Shift wouldn't be terribly difficult to sustain in a mission setting so you can count on roughly +70% Recharge. The damage boost also puts Kheldians on more level footing with other ATs (the damage cap increasing to 500% would be needed). If this seems "a little much", don't forget that Kheldians are having to jump through a lot of hoops and perform a whirling dervish in order get to this point. If they're slightly over-tuned, it's because they have to work for it. At present, I think playing a Kheldian is a lot of work for only good-not-great reward. 

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, Whitest Light said:

As a PB player, I guess I'd want to start with "What is the intended role of a PB?" When they were first introduced on Live, they were supposed to be "the ultimate teammate" but I don't believe the meta suits that in any capacity now. 

The Kheldians were meant as a challenge AT when they were first introduced on Live. You had to prove you understood the game by getting at least 1 character to level 50, you faced special enemies that only showed up for your character and did untyped (and therefor unresistable) damage, you were given a lot of power choices to sort through to develop your character, 2 of those power choices granted additional powers while still limiting you to the same number of enhancement slots as everyone else so you had to know how to prioritize powers for enhancement and to what degree, and your capabilities were automatically improved/altered depending on your team's composition. (So yeah, teaming was very heavily recommended to help deal with your special enemies and improve your character capabilities.)

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The Kheldians were meant as a challenge AT when they were first introduced

While I won't disagree that Kheldians were indeed very challenging to play at their introduction, I generally viewed them as a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of archetype...

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, biostem said:

While I won't disagree that Kheldians were indeed very challenging to play at their introduction, I generally viewed them as a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of archetype...

They were definitely that too. That's their massive list of 14 primaries, one of which granted an additional 4 powers automatically if selected, and 13 secondaries, one of which granted an additional 6 powers if taken. You can basically build them to do anything/be anything. That is part of their being a challenge AT because there was just so much to pick and build from. If the player has a good understanding of the game and what the powers the Peacebringer offers do and how best to utilize, enhance, and combine them; then you had an extremely versatile and powerful character. Your reward for understanding the game so well. (Edit: On an original Positron TF, our team was struggling to clear it and most of the team quit leaving just my character, another standard character, and the Peacebringer. The Peacebringer took lead and [slowly but surely] got us through the TF where none of the rest of us could keep up. So if you can figure out how to build and employ them, Peacebringers are massively capable. The challenge is figuring out how to do so.)

Edited April 3, 2024 by Rudra

[kelika2]

unless the devs can make specifically for khelds different damage caps per form i dont see 500% happening

nova form attacks are almost on bar with blasters

and their damage cap is.. 400% i believe

 

But there needs to be a warning on kheld creation that your forms will cover up your costume.  91% of kheld threads are vanity complaint based

[Laucianna]

19 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

As a PB player, I guess I'd want to start with "What is the intended role of a PB?" When they were first introduced on Live, they were supposed to be "the ultimate teammate" but I don't believe the meta suits that in any capacity now. 

 

The OP's points are good. I especially like some of the base modifier tweaks, especially concerning damage. PB single-target damage feels very low, not necessarily because the powers are bad but you have long animations, knockback that forces you to chase enemies, etc. Personally, I couldn't care less about having access to Epic Pool Powers or having Pool Powers available while shapeshifted. I have enough powers to manage as-is. 

 

My personal vision for Kheldians is to really lean into form-switching. That's what makes them unique compared to other ATs, rather than poorer versions of other existing ATs. 

 

To that end, regarding PBs: (this is a re-post in another thread): 

 

#1a. Make both Nova and Dwarf forms inherent powers at 4 and 20, respectively. That means every Kheldian is Tri-Form now and you can balance around it. It also saves 2 power picks.

 

#1b. All duplicate powers (or near-duplicates) share a single slotting between Human and shapeshifted forms. Gleaming/Nova Bolt, Proton/Nova Scatter, Luminous/Nova Detonation, Gleaming/Nova Blast, Radiant/Dwarf Strike, Incandescent/Dwarf Smite, Reform Essence/Dwarf Sublimation, etc. That saves a ton of slots and makes it so the powers/forms never get "left behind" because you can't afford to slot them. If you don't pick up, say, Proton Scatter in Human Form you don't get the power just because Nova Form has it but if you do pick it up, you don't have to slot Nova Form. 

 

#2. The Human Shields need to add incomplete Mez protection of some kind. Shining might offer knockback and immobilization. Thermal offers hold, sleep. Quantum adds stun, terrorize, etc. If you get all three, you get full protection, though maybe only Mag 3 like Light Form. The point being, you shouldn't have to rely on Dwarf for mez protection nor have to wait until Light Form. It also makes the shields more valuable early and possibly worthwhile to use even when Light Form comes around. 

 

#4. Inner Light and Light Form (maybe Essence Boost?) should be accessible from all forms. I'm ok with toggles and other click powers staying Human-only but these click powers are Kheldian-specific and carry over anyway so dropping to Human just to click them feels unnecessary.

 

#5. Make Photon Seekers "true" albeit short-lived pets. For 55 out of 60 seconds, they are non-suicidal light balls that shoot Gleaming Bolts. In the last 5 seconds, they operate as they currently do. The player can manually activate their suicidal approach by setting them to Aggressive. 

 

#6. Replace Glinting Eye for the equivalent of a light melee attack like Barrage from Energy Melee. The choice between a melee and ranged attack at the beginning communicates that the PB mixes it up at range and melee. Second, the single-target chain for PBs in melee is lacking a "light" attack filler between Radiant Strike and I Strike. This Barrage-like ability could replace the current "Dwarf Bolt" attack somewhat shoehorned in. The loser in this exchange is Nova, where Glinting Eye was actually pretty strong but it has two ST blasts as it is and if 1b occurs, Nova Bolt might be slotted.

 

#7. Pulsar needs help. Redesign, make it available in Nova form (?), I don't know. I know I've never used it and I can't recall seeing anyone else use it either.

 

Finally, the inherent. Renamed: "Kheldian Shift." This is where Kheldians could really shine as shapeshifters. Switching forms and attacking causes a Kheldian to gain Shift utilizing a bar like Fury. Attacks immediately following a form switch generate their full Shift values but have rapid diminishing returns. If you stay in one form long enough (~10 seconds), or don't attack, the returns are too low to sustain the bar level. As Shift builds, the Kheldian enjoys improved Recharge, Damage, and Recovery up to 100% (1% per Shift %). Shift does not accrue or decay as quickly as Fury and is primarily based on the relative endurance costs of attacks (stronger attacks generate more). At Shift levels above 50%, Kheldians impart 20% of their total Shift bonus to nearby teammates. I.e. a PB has 50% Shift - the PB gets +50% Recharge/Damage/Recovery and all teammates have +10% of the same.

 

The logic here is to incentivize switching forms. It can be back and forth between two forms or utilize all three. The more you switch, attack and switch, the more Shift you build. Kheldians would be known for getting stronger as they fight while also helping nearby teammates. Also, the inherent cuts down on the absolute need for Hasten/Global Recharge to sustain Perma-Lightform, Eclipse, Hasten, etc. Shift wouldn't be terribly difficult to sustain in a mission setting so you can count on roughly +70% Recharge. The damage boost also puts Kheldians on more level footing with other ATs (the damage cap increasing to 500% would be needed). If this seems "a little much", don't forget that Kheldians are having to jump through a lot of hoops and perform a whirling dervish in order get to this point. If they're slightly over-tuned, it's because they have to work for it. At present, I think playing a Kheldian is a lot of work for only good-not-great reward. 

 

Thank you so much for the suggestions!!!

1A - I am fully for ❤️ Making them inherent will make it clear this is the selling point of the AT too! 1B - I am less for as atm there is enough slots to make a powerful build, it just requires the person so slot it smartly which is part of the difficulty of a Kheldian imo.

2 - Personally I would prefer Debuff protection in the shields as we get mez protection in Lightform and Dwarf so the shields will still not be great at max level if it's just mez resist.

4 - I do agree there should be more powers useable in the forms but personally I don't mind dropping out of the form to power them as it encourages form switching.
 

5 - Whilst I would LOVE this! I doubt they will since they want us to be a 2 on pets and that would make us a solid 6 imo.

6 - I would want Glinting Eye to stay the same, but Gleaming Bolt could become a Gleaming Barrage to give us the melee starting option that carries over into dwarf ❤️ 

7 - Pulsar feels like a lost cause and some powers will be (Energy group flight for instance...) But if they turned it into a toggle that did a stun aura like Entangling Vines I think from nature, that carried over into the forms and in Dwarf it was used as a taunt aura that would make it SUPER useful imo!

Love the inherent idea! Would be nice if it related to the form you are in, so switching to nova gave you more dmg/acc bonus, switching to dwarf gave you more recovery/regen, and switching to human gave you more recharge etc 😄

[gameboy1234]

On 3/30/2024 at 6:25 AM, arcane said:

Do whatever you want as long as changeling binds/macros are nuked from orbit. I won’t play Kheldians until that exploit is patched.

 

On 3/30/2024 at 7:34 AM, Laucianna said:

The devs have said they will remove the changeling binds once the rework happens ❤️ These are just suggestions on ways to keep the AT useful without having to rely on them 🙂 

 

EDIT: OK, I see an answer was provided a couple of posts past these.  Interesting, I'll have to take a look at those.

 

What the heck are "changeling binds"?  Are those just macros/binds that shift your forms?  Like /bind b powexec_name Dwarf or something?

 

Edited April 3, 2024 by gameboy1234

[Whitest Light]

4 hours ago, Laucianna said:

 

Thank you so much for the suggestions!!!

1A - I am fully for ❤️ Making them inherent will make it clear this is the selling point of the AT too! 1B - I am less for as atm there is enough slots to make a powerful build, it just requires the person so slot it smartly which is part of the difficulty of a Kheldian imo.

2 - Personally I would prefer Debuff protection in the shields as we get mez protection in Lightform and Dwarf so the shields will still not be great at max level if it's just mez resist.

4 - I do agree there should be more powers useable in the forms but personally I don't mind dropping out of the form to power them as it encourages form switching.
 

5 - Whilst I would LOVE this! I doubt they will since they want us to be a 2 on pets and that would make us a solid 6 imo.

6 - I would want Glinting Eye to stay the same, but Gleaming Bolt could become a Gleaming Barrage to give us the melee starting option that carries over into dwarf ❤️ 

7 - Pulsar feels like a lost cause and some powers will be (Energy group flight for instance...) But if they turned it into a toggle that did a stun aura like Entangling Vines I think from nature, that carried over into the forms and in Dwarf it was used as a taunt aura that would make it SUPER useful imo!

Love the inherent idea! Would be nice if it related to the form you are in, so switching to nova gave you more dmg/acc bonus, switching to dwarf gave you more recovery/regen, and switching to human gave you more recharge etc 😄

 

To elaborate (I didn't want to make a huge post) on a few things:

 

1B is in response to something no other AT has to deal with: duplicate powers. If I get Luminous Detonation as Human and get Nova form, I now have two identical powers that are begging for slots. The rub is that Nova form Detonation is literally twice as strong out-of-the-box which means I get way more bang-for-the-buck slotting it over the Human form.  But it begs the question Why am I being asked to slot both in the first place? They're the same power! 

 

Perhaps cutting the Gordian Knot is to make Nova and Dwarf less of an "mini-AT-unto-themselves" and more of extension of the Human form powers. Imagine Nova and Dwarf not having their own inherent attacks at all but carry over ranged and melee attacks, respectively, from Human form. So, if you want Nova to have Detonation and Scatter, you have to pick them as Human. The upside is that the powers carry over into the forms so you're only slotting one. Nova provides the better damage modifier, extra range, and free flight however, you lose access to heals and shields. Dwarf provides superior resistance, access to Taunt/Punchvoke, and Mez protection but you lose ranged attacks. Human is weaker than both but is the most versatile. 

 

This would also kill the changeling exploit because the recharges on the powers would carry over from each form. (Again, coming from a PB perspective. WS rely on Double Mire a lot and both Dwarf and Nova have attacks not represented in Human Form. These might just have to carry over)

 

2 - I say Mez protection because up until Level 20, you don't have any while most Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers have something by then. Light Form is also weak Mez protection (for all practical purposes, Mag 4) which is good enough for most things but I do occasionally get Mezzed. I'm not against Debuff Protection. If I really had it my way, shields would be pure Defense but that makes PBs very layered in survivability.

 

5 - "They want us to be a 2 on pets" - Do they? Even if Photon Seekers lingered a bit longer and did light damage, I don't see them being much more than an annoyance. However, their current iteration is just a second Nuke. I'm not against that per se, but they're not pets: they're an attack. Compared to Dark Extraction, they're far inferior, even if they did have their own attacks. 

 

6 - Agreed. I should have replaced Bolt, not Eye.

 

7 - Pulsar as a toggle might make it worth it. Carried over into Dwarf would be cool!

 

Inherent Idea - Yes, I also thought of Form-specific benefits but didn't want to get super-complicated initially. However, I thought almost exactly as you did! Nova gets +Damage/Acc, Dwarf gets +Regen/Damage (half as much damage bonus as Nova, though), Human gets +Recharge/Recovery. I wanted to give both forms +Damage because I think that's ultimately what motivates players. Nova basically does twice the damage of the other forms but is the squishiest, Dwarf is a slow bruiser, Human is the weakest but can spam attacks and "fuel" the recharge reduction in the long click powers. However, you'll want to switch between them frequently to keep Shift topped off. 

 

Also, not mentioned in the OP or anywhere else: Knockback to Knockdown. If nothing else: THIS.

Edited April 4, 2024 by Whitest Light

[Laucianna]

11 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

 

To elaborate (I didn't want to make a huge post) on a few things:

 

1B is in response to something no other AT has to deal with: duplicate powers. If I get Luminous Detonation as Human and get Nova form, I now have two identical powers that are begging for slots. The rub is that Nova form Detonation is literally twice as strong out-of-the-box which means I get way more bang-for-the-buck slotting it over the Human form.  But it begs the question Why am I being asked to slot both in the first place? They're the same power! 

 

Perhaps cutting the Gordian Knot is to make Nova and Dwarf less of an "mini-AT-unto-themselves" and more of extension of the Human form powers. Imagine Nova and Dwarf not having their own inherent attacks at all but carry over ranged and melee attacks, respectively, from Human form. So, if you want Nova to have Detonation and Scatter, you have to pick them as Human. The upside is that the powers carry over into the forms so you're only slotting one. Nova provides the better damage modifier, extra range, and free flight however, you lose access to heals and shields. Dwarf provides superior resistance, access to Taunt/Punchvoke, and Mez protection but you lose ranged attacks. Human is weaker than both but is the most versatile. 

 

This would also kill the changeling exploit because the recharges on the powers would carry over from each form. (Again, coming from a PB perspective. WS rely on Double Mire a lot and both Dwarf and Nova have attacks not represented in Human Form. These might just have to carry over)

 

2 - I say Mez protection because up until Level 20, you don't have any while most Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers have something by then. Light Form is also weak Mez protection (for all practical purposes, Mag 4) which is good enough for most things but I do occasionally get Mezzed. I'm not against Debuff Protection. If I really had it my way, shields would be pure Defense but that makes PBs very layered in survivability.

 

5 - "They want us to be a 2 on pets" - Do they? Even if Photon Seekers lingered a bit longer and did light damage, I don't see them being much more than an annoyance. However, their current iteration is just a second Nuke. I'm not against that per se, but they're not pets: they're an attack. Compared to Dark Extraction, they're far inferior, even if they did have their own attacks. 

 

6 - Agreed. I should have replaced Bolt, not Eye.

 

7 - Pulsar as a toggle might make it worth it. Carried over into Dwarf would be cool!

 

Inherent Idea - Yes, I also thought of Form-specific benefits but didn't want to get super-complicated initially. However, I thought almost exactly as you did! Nova gets +Damage/Acc, Dwarf gets +Regen/Damage (half as much damage bonus as Nova, though), Human gets +Recharge/Recovery. I wanted to give both forms +Damage because I think that's ultimately what motivates players. Nova basically does twice the damage of the other forms but is the squishiest, Dwarf is a slow bruiser, Human is the weakest but can spam attacks and "fuel" the recharge reduction in the long click powers. However, you'll want to switch between them frequently to keep Shift topped off. 

 

Also, not mentioned in the OP or anywhere else: Knockback to Knockdown. If nothing else: THIS.

Personally I don't understand the duplicate power issue, why would you pick up both human detonation and nova? It feels like it would be just wasting power slots to me, you also then have the issue of them both using the same cooldown which messes with the WarShades double mire as you will only get one.

To be honest anything with the shields that would make them more desirable is okay in my books, even more mez protection or debuff protection I am more then happy with ❤️ 

From what Homecoming have ranked PeaceBringers as is where I am getting the 2 from, and if we had 3 little turret summons (With enough recharge they can even get 6 for a little while) each firing off an attack even if it's nova bolt would be amazing but to me feels a bit strong for something that is meant to be 2 in that section (Not saying I don't want this, I would LOVE this but I don't think they will add it sadly)

The inherent is honestly 10/10 imo and I honestly hope they include it ❤️

And this may be an unpopular opinion, but I like the fact we have Knockback, when building a Kheldian you have to be smart with slots and powers and I feel like this also factors into that, whether you say f it and don't convert anything for max damage, only convert AOE to stop the spread, or be super safe and slot it all. It adds another layer of customization that I personally enjoy 😄 

[Whitest Light]

I wasn't clear on the duplicate thing:

 

If you pick Luminous Detonation as Human, it carries over to Nova. You don't pick Nova Detonation (it's not even a pick!). Basically, ranged attacks picked as Human carry over to Nova, melee attacks you pick carry over to Dwarf. Any you skip as Human aren't available in Nova/Dwarf. The upside is you only slot one power. Yes, Warshades would be hurt not being able to double Mire which is a valid concern. To be frank, only PBs have so much overlap between forms so maybe this doesn't apply to Warshades at all. 

 

I understand the "2" is from character creation but according to that, all ATs are 2 except for Controllers/Doms/Crabs at "5" and Masterminds at "10". Warshades are considered 5s, but I don't consider Dark Extraction on par with Controller/Dominator semi-permanent pets. Personally, I think PBs should be 3s and Warshades 4s - i.e. access to pets beyond Epic Pools but nothing to write home about (with WS being better). 

 

For Knockback: just let Null the Gull give you the option to turn your KB to KD if you want. 😄

[Glacier Peak]

Can someone tell me why they think there is anything that needs changed on Kheldians? 

 

They're perfectly balanced in my opinion, that's why I'm a big fan of them. 

[Laucianna]

1 hour ago, Whitest Light said:

I wasn't clear on the duplicate thing:

 

If you pick Luminous Detonation as Human, it carries over to Nova. You don't pick Nova Detonation (it's not even a pick!). Basically, ranged attacks picked as Human carry over to Nova, melee attacks you pick carry over to Dwarf. Any you skip as Human aren't available in Nova/Dwarf. The upside is you only slot one power. Yes, Warshades would be hurt not being able to double Mire which is a valid concern. To be frank, only PBs have so much overlap between forms so maybe this doesn't apply to Warshades at all. 

 

I understand the "2" is from character creation but according to that, all ATs are 2 except for Controllers/Doms/Crabs at "5" and Masterminds at "10". Warshades are considered 5s, but I don't consider Dark Extraction on par with Controller/Dominator semi-permanent pets. Personally, I think PBs should be 3s and Warshades 4s - i.e. access to pets beyond Epic Pools but nothing to write home about (with WS being better). 

 

For Knockback: just let Null the Gull give you the option to turn your KB to KD if you want. 😄

I get that but if Nova gives you detonation for free why would you pick the human only version unless you are going a human only build?

The whole stats are over the place but I view them as what the devs are intended that role to fill (Whether it does is another matter (Most of the time it doesn't)) So I wouldn't personally suggest buffing them to try and fit in line with that ❤️ 

That's a whole debate in itself that isn't limited to Kheldians 😄 I remember it here a little while back and it got quite heated so I am staying away lol