Endurance Drain Should Do Something

[Troo]

Holding targets does something.

Immobilizing targets does something.

Disorienting targets does something.

Draining a target completely of endurance seems to do nothing.

We can't toggle drop non-player targets.

EBs and AVs seem to still be able to wield massive attacks.

 

At a minimum, it seems we should be able to dramatically slow a target's attacks? It seems if they only need one point of endurance to attack it just doesn't feel like they are effected by endurance drain.

 

At a maximum, no endurance could mean no attacks and no active defenses. Helplessness. Defeat.

 

Could it be compelling to add a second path to defeating an enemy rather than just chipping away at the red bar?

[Zect]

9 minutes ago, Troo said:

EBs and AVs seem to still be able to wield massive attacks.

 

That's because drain was specifically nerfed against AV's and EB's in i27p3 (source).
 

Spoiler

Critter Changes

 

AV, and Giant Monsters should now be able to use their weakest attacks when fully end-drained. AVs should be able to use attacks that cost less than 10 end to cast. Giant Monsters should be able to use attacks that cost less than 15 end to cast.

 

EB and Arch Villain min recovery is now capped at 25% instead of 0% Giant Monster min recovery is now capped at 50% instead of 0%

 

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Could it be compelling to add a second path to defeating an enemy rather than just chipping away at the red bar?

 

Compelling, but unlikely. Homecoming, for all its numerous virtues, increasingly becomes about dps to the exclusion of all else. The things that people want and which are added are either dps, or dps with additional steps (e.g. -res, which was added to FF; there are now only 3 buffdebuff sets with no -res in them, and they all have +dmg instead). This is not an issue exclusive to HC, and in fact most MMO's have it far worse, but I tend to notice it more here because this game has never had strict dps checks and has always featured a diversity of playstyles.

 

If you don't believe me on this, here's a thought experiment: what would it take to make the next blast/melee set added both 1) the lowest dps one and 2) popular. Q.E.D.

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, Zect said:

If you don't believe me on this, here's a thought experiment: what would it take to make the next blast/melee set added both 1) the lowest dps one and 2) popular. Q.E.D.

 

Oof. I have been mulling over a "Don't lose the magic" topic. The race to vanilla-ness is.. don't get me started!

 

To answer your question: Maybe something like Traps, which would be very unlikely to happen today.

[SuperPlyx]

Yeah I really like my Electric toons but I wish they had a different secondary effect,

Stun or disorient maybe, That could possibly fit the electric theme.

[Glacier Peak]

It's a binary issue. Either the enemy has endurance and attack or they don't and can't.

 

I think Homecoming should've thrown in a purple patch addition of res to -recovery, instead of making endurance drain do nothing to AVs. That way the -recovery could mean something and bypass resistance to -recovery given enough effort, while balancing the explicit secondary effect of some powersets who's whole purpose is to provide a mechanism to mitigate damage. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Well, first of all it DOES do something.  It restricts the highest enemies to their weakest attacks.  How well would your character do if they were restricted to their weakest attack?  I get it that endurance drain needs to affect enemies differently than enemy's endurance drains affect characters, because the deck is so overly stacked in our favor.

 

Secondly, it is remarkably easy to build for endurance drain, significantly easier than building for health drain.  You can drain a foe from 100 to zero in an extremely short period of time that is a tiny fraction of the time you can drain health from 100 to zero.  If endurance drain immediately led to AV/GM incapacitation, then people would build for that.

 

I think that people are blinded by their cognitive biases, and only judging by dps.  Endurance drain significantly improves your survival (just like sleep, or -damage from kinetic melee, etc.) but people don't care because their survival is practically guaranteed and so they just want moar dps.

[Shred Monkey]

My simple fix... Endurance should be able to go negative by about 10%... That way you can drain them and then keep applying drain to keep them below 0.   But also balance this by making AVs/bosses more resistant to endurance drain.

[Lazarus]

ELECTRIC BLAST sets do additional dam. based on on target current end, so there is that.

 

As far as EB, AV,GM,.. you are SOL.

[Troo]

51 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

My simple fix... Endurance should be able to go negative by about 10%... That way you can drain them and then keep applying drain to keep them below 0.   But also balance this by making AVs/bosses more resistant to endurance drain.

 

Well dang. This is so simple and straight forward.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I think that people are blinded by their cognitive biases, and only judging by dps.  Endurance drain significantly improves your survival (just like sleep, or -damage from kinetic melee, etc.) but people don't care because their survival is practically guaranteed and so they just want moar dps.

Agreeing with Yomo. Two specific examples are mob nukes and some T9. 

 

Fort Mistresses cannot nuke at low endurance.

Mino and Cyclops if zero'ed out and -recovery cannot T9.

 

Having said that, there is a massive problem with secondary/control powers in the end game.

[Haijinx]

This thread makes me tired. Course that could be because I'm in the hospital  but w/e.

[Yomo Kimyata]

34 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This thread makes me tired. Course that could be because I'm in the hospital  but w/e.

 

Feel better soon!

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Agreeing with Yomo. Two specific examples are mob nukes and some T9. 

 

Fort Mistresses cannot nuke at low endurance.

Mino and Cyclops if zero'ed out and -recovery cannot T9.

 

Having said that, there is a massive problem with secondary/control powers in the end game.

 

Add in paragon protectors can't MOG.  I was pleased when I realized how much less annoying it was fighting Crey on my electric blast sentinel. 

[Andreah]

I've thought it might be nice for everyone, players and mobs alike, to get a modest -recharge debuff when end is below maximum; one that scaled superlinearly with how depleted one's end is. So if you had half or more of your end left, it would be barely noticeable, like 0 to -10%, but if you were below 10% it hurt, like -25%, and below 1% it was horrible, like -50% or more. I mean, you're just so dead tired everything takes forever to do.

[Heatstroke]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Well, first of all it DOES do something.  It restricts the highest enemies to their weakest attacks.  How well would your character do if they were restricted to their weakest attack?  I get it that endurance drain needs to affect enemies differently than enemy's endurance drains affect characters, because the deck is so overly stacked in our favor.

 

I think that people are blinded by their cognitive biases, and only judging by dps.  Endurance drain significantly improves your survival (just like sleep, or -damage from kinetic melee, etc.) but people don't care because their survival is practically guaranteed and so they just want moar dps.

 

 

This. 

[WumpusRat]

I have an elec/elec defender that I play as a sapper, as I've got both some end drain bonuses in several of her attacks (especially short circuit) as well as the incarnate ability that adds end drain to all her attacks. The difference when I play her vs groups of mobs vs other characters is pretty substantial. I can dive into a giant spawn of mobs even on +4/8 as a solo defender, rip them all down to zero endurance, and just stand there picking them off as they stare helplessly at me, occasionally throwing a weak attack.

 

So yeah, end drain isn't as instantly obvious as slapping a hold or a stun or a knockdown on an enemy, but once you get them down to zero, they're basically a paper tiger that you can kill at your leisure.

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Andreah said:

I've thought it might be nice for everyone, players and mobs alike, to get a modest -recharge debuff when end is below maximum; one that scaled superlinearly with how depleted one's end is. So if you had half or more of your end left, it would be barely noticeable, like 0 to -10%, but if you were below 10% it hurt, like -25%, and below 1% it was horrible, like -50% or more. I mean, you're just so dead tired everything takes forever to do.

 

whoa hoho ho.. i didn't want anything to happen to me, I mean players.. that's that's... hmmm

[Uun]

21 hours ago, Troo said:

At a minimum, it seems we should be able to dramatically slow a target's attacks? It seems if they only need one point of endurance to attack it just doesn't feel like they are effected by endurance drain.

 

At a maximum, no endurance could mean no attacks and no active defenses. Helplessness. Defeat.

You can absolutely do this now to non-AVs. My Elec blast sentinel easily drains foes to zero and keeps them there. They are unable to attack and just run around not knowing what to do. I can also do it, although not as quickly, with my Elec controller. The catch is end drain alone isn't enough. You also need powers with -recovery. 

 

In addition to the end drain changes to AVs and GMs @Zect referred to above, standard AV Resistance includes strong resistance to end drain and recovery debuffs. 

[Haijinx]

It's too bad it doesn't  work like a Malta sapper at least ST

 

Cause those guys suck ..

 

 

Your blue bar

[Scarlet Shocker]

<--- Redundant

 

End drain effectiveness has always been an issue but now it's far worse than it's ever been

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 4/21/2024 at 1:47 AM, Zect said:

here's a thought experiment: what would it take to make the next blast/melee set added both 1) the lowest dps one and 2) popular.

 

Multiple cone holds with a 2.03sec cast and a 40s recharge, with a 70ft radius and a 30deg arc, or a 60fr radius and 90deg arc. Plus an Aim that was all ToHit and perma-able, and a recovery toggle that competes with Efficient Adaptation.

 

>:3

Edited April 22 by twozerofoxtrot
Literally one letter

[KaizenSoze]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It's too bad it doesn't  work like a Malta sapper at least ST

 

Cause those guys suck ..

 

 

Your blue bar

Sappers have a lot of endurance drain resistance. Pretty much nothing can drain them w/o spending way more time than it would take to kill them.

 

Fortunately, they are the exception, not the rule.

[Haijinx]

34 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Sappers have a lot of endurance drain resistance. Pretty much nothing can drain them w/o spending way more time than it would take to kill them.

 

Fortunately, they are the exception, not the rule.

Well yeah but that's all they can do right?

 

So I guess they get to keep their glowy sticks.

[Scarlet Shocker]

13 hours ago, Haijinx said:

It's too bad it doesn't  work like a Malta sapper at least ST

 

Cause those guys suck ..

 

 

Your blue bar

 

Sappers are great because they are one of the few things that can make even the toughest hero weep like a child.

 

Sadly heroes don't get anything like that level of sap - even the best build end-drainging enddrainiest sappy* build is utterly meh in comparison

 

The issue is not that end drain is poor overall, is that as a player your actual contribution to the game is at best less than fuck all** in any given situation. As a player End Drain is a waste of time and the only reason you would take something like electric powers is becuse a) you're new and don't understand how the game works (ie Scarlet Shocker) or b) you choose something to be thematic and end up running to 50 with a heart full of disappoint***

 

Pretty well every other power with a secondary effect performs better than end drain which is pretty poor if you think about it.

 

I don't think anyone would expect somebody to go through a map on an electric blaster or controller and drain all mobs of their powers, but there should be some effect of end drain to give the set some actual feels and to have a reason to play those powers.

 

A practical solution would be to "stack" end drain as some other powers have effects - so each time you hit a  mob with a power you gain a stack of drain and once you've hit so many points of drain you can hit your foe with it. Their resistance would be dependent on their level; minion, lt, boss, AV etc and to be effective against an AV you'd need to maybe hit it with a high number of points and a very damaging power.

 

 

 

 

_{*actual technical term}

_{**also a technical term}

_{***non-technical term}

[srmalloy]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:08 PM, Haijinx said:

This thread makes me tired. Course that could be because I'm in the hospital  but w/e.

I know what you are going through, and I sympathize completely; I was hospitalized from early January to mid March for surgery to drain a subdural hematoma, then opened back up to drain an infection at the surgical site. Being able to access the forums from my tablet was no substitute for being able to play.

Edited April 22 by srmalloy