How do we fail new players?

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

I noticed one person advertising in help chat, "I've gotten level 50. So now what do I need to do to equip my character and start enjoying the game?"

 

Farming and powerleveling are horrible for new players.

Welcome to the AE babies that think that the game isn't worth playing until the end-game because they have run into so many MMOs where there is no one to game with at lower levels.  (many times it turns out that way here as well, unfortunately ... because there is more content during leveling than there is in the end-game unless you take the level-down hit so it isn't like you are playing it at 50 at that point anyway)

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

They're level 50 and want to START enjoying the game. They've missed most of the game on their first character.

 

And that is a good thing to tell them in the help channel.

"A level 50 character isn't required to enjoy the game." 

"Playing the game while leveling up is a great way to learn how to play the game. I would suggest making a new character. Look for teams recruiting on the /lfg channel. Or post your level and say you are looking for a team in /lfg."

"I would suggest new character and learn how to play the game by leveling up. Play the tutorial. Try to find mission teams at your level if possible. Once you have learned enough about the game, you can go back to working on your 50." 

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

If not, they'll discover that a lot of level 50 players do nothing but the same two trials over and over, get bored and leave the game because it seems like there's nothing to do compared to other MMOs.

 

I agree.

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

A significant number of players take pride in powerlevelling anyone they can. They feel they're helping others by doing so, or even giving them a gift.

 

Yeah. 

I think that is pretty sad myself.

They are stealing a new player's enjoyment of the game.

 

Most of those players are the ones that ONLY play level 50's, and can't understand why anyone would enjoy the lower levels.

 

DISCLAIMER: I have 3 level 50's that I leveled to level 50. I have not plans on EVER making another 50 and have been turning off the XP on any character that reaches level 49. I love leveling in this game. When I get the DING, it means something to me.

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

It means we're taking away a relatively gentle learning curve and expecting them to learn their character at level 50.

 

And there are many players that only play level 50 that will be very harsh to players that don't know how to play their level 50 character.

This is more true on the most populous server than any of the others.

And I can kind of bet that someone that comes to the game new and immediately finds a way to power-levels to 50, most likely will have done it on the most populous server.

Also, historically, is seems - across games - that the players with what I consider to be bad attitudes flock to the most populous server, but they might just stand out more because the percentage means a greater number of players that behave that way.

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

The players who WANT powerlevelling will still ask for it, and are not shy about doing so.

 

Problems is, that the person you reference may very well have come into the game and gone directly to /lfg and asked to be power leveled (in one wording or another).

I haven't gone looking on the internet, but I'm assuming because of the whole AE babies thing (even before the Sunset) that someone is advertising somewhere that new players should do that - and/or - they brought that behavior with them from another MMO.

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

More recently, I saw a farmer encouraging a new player to play a character 'the long way' rather than powerlevelling. They explained that they wanted the newbie to enjoy the game and to stay for the long haul, and that they felt the best way to do that was to learn the game organically. That's the best solution, in my opinion.

 

I have a great disdain for farmers and the corruption they caused to the AE.

That being said, I salute the farmer that said that to a new player.

 

17 hours ago, mechahamham said:

What ways do you see that we fail new players and what are your suggestions for fixing those problems?

 

I'm bad about recruiting for DFBs, but I really don't like Hashberry's (or whatever) arc, and I HATE Twin Shot's arc ... it's horrible.

 

I would suggest starting characters with their Origin arcs like we did before the funneling (forcing players into narrow window of content to increase the population running that content) started. Those arcs are really good about taking you around the City to see what is going on and to learn about different villain groups based on your origin.

That being said, I know that Origin makes no difference on the villain or Praetorian side.

 

By running DFB or two, it usually levels up a character enough to go to the Hollows or run a Posi 1. 

The problem is that many people don't recruit for the lower levels. And pretty much we know that if you recruit for a low level team, then people will join you.

And, that in itself, can be a problem when a level 50 joins the team and ruins everyone else's fun - which I have seen happen far too often to be frankly honest. I know its ruined my fun. 

You want other players to pull their weight, but it is no fun when someone says in essence "Here, hold my beer." and turns you into a door sitter in your own mission by steam rolling it.

 

A good way is when you see low level players looking for a team, that you switch to a low level and join them.

"What missions do you have? Let's run one of your missions. If you don't have one, then pick a contact and let's go talk to them and see what they have going on."

 

I can't say that I'm always in a position to do that, but I do try to put in my "community service" time as able.

 

 

[Neiska]

21 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Farming and powerleveling are horrible for new players.

Welcome to the AE babies that think that the game isn't worth playing until the end-game because they have run into so many MMOs where there is no one to game with at lower levels.  (many times it turns out that way here as well, unfortunately ... because there is more content during leveling than there is in the end-game unless you take the level-down hit so it isn't like you are playing it at 50 at that point anyway)

 

They are stealing a new player's enjoyment of the game.

 

Most of those players are the ones that ONLY play level 50's, and can't understand why anyone would enjoy the lower levels.

 

DISCLAIMER: I have 3 level 50's that I leveled to level 50. I have not plans on EVER making another 50 and have been turning off the XP on any character that reaches level 49. I love leveling in this game. When I get the DING, it means something to me.

 

 

And there are many players that only play level 50 that will be very harsh to players that don't know how to play their level 50 character.

This is more true on the most populous server than any of the others.

And I can kind of bet that someone that comes to the game new and immediately finds a way to power-levels to 50, most likely will have done it on the most populous server.

Also, historically, is seems - across games - that the players with what I consider to be bad attitudes flock to the most populous server, but they might just stand out more because the percentage means a greater number of players that behave that way.

 

Problems is, that the person you reference may very well have come into the game and gone directly to /lfg and asked to be power leveled (in one wording or another).

I haven't gone looking on the internet, but I'm assuming because of the whole AE babies thing (even before the Sunset) that someone is advertising somewhere that new players should do that - and/or - they brought that behavior with them from another MMO.

 

I have a great disdain for farmers and the corruption they caused to the AE.

That being said, I salute the farmer that said that to a new player.

 

 

I'm bad about recruiting for DFBs, but I really don't like Hashberry's (or whatever) arc, and I HATE Twin Shot's arc ... it's horrible.

 

I would suggest starting characters with their Origin arcs like we did before the funneling (forcing players into narrow window of content to increase the population running that content) started. Those arcs are really good about taking you around the City to see what is going on and to learn about different villain groups based on your origin.

That being said, I know that Origin makes no difference on the villain or Praetorian side.

 

By running DFB or two, it usually levels up a character enough to go to the Hollows or run a Posi 1. 

The problem is that many people don't recruit for the lower levels. And pretty much we know that if you recruit for a low level team, then people will join you.

And, that in itself, can be a problem when a level 50 joins the team and ruins everyone else's fun - which I have seen happen far too often to be frankly honest. I know its ruined my fun. 

You want other players to pull their weight, but it is no fun when someone says in essence "Here, hold my beer." and turns you into a door sitter in your own mission by steam rolling it.

 

A good way is when you see low level players looking for a team, that you switch to a low level and join them.

"What missions do you have? Let's run one of your missions. If you don't have one, then pick a contact and let's go talk to them and see what they have going on."

 

I can't say that I'm always in a position to do that, but I do try to put in my "community service" time as able.

 

 

 

 

If gatekeeping and/or self-appointed dictator of fun was a person this is what it would look like.

 

[ZacKing]

7 hours ago, Herotu said:

NOBODY teams with a specifically self-imposed cap of less than 8.  The point being that although we are FREE to do so, we don't.

 

I can't speak for anyone else other than me, but I can guarantee you this isn't anywhere remotely close to true.  I team with a few mates near every day and the four of us run missions just fine.

[Ghost]

8 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

 

If gatekeeping and/or self-appointed dictator of fun was a person this is what it would look like.

 

I don’t understand why their opinion bothers you.

 

[battlewraith]

I call bullshit on the whole "farmers ruining the enjoyment of a new player's game" thing. You roll a character, and start playing the normal way. If that was really an enjoyable progression, then people wouldn't be tempted to get pled on a farm right? Except that has always been the case--ever since the beginning there have always been people looking to skip the grind of killing X number of skulls, thousands of clockwork in a tf, or whatever. It was not at all uncommon to just grind xp by street sweeping.

 

But what happens if I get a 50 right away? My enjoyment of the game is ruined because lvl 50 content is boring? lol.

I could always just roll a new lowbie character and have that wonderful slow-grind experience any time I want right? Or exemplar down?

If getting experience of the late game destroys the enjoyment of the early game--that doesn't speak well of the quality of the experience of the early game.

[Herotu]

6 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

I can't speak for anyone else other than me, but I can guarantee you this isn't anywhere remotely close to true.  I team with a few mates near every day and the four of us run missions just fine.

I refer the honourable gentleperson to the answer I gave yesterday. 

 

I am going to state WHY we're talking about this again because it seems off-topic when it's not.
My point is that freedom isn't always desirable.

People are defending a lack of change by claiming freedom is always best, when it's not. 

12 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

 

If gatekeeping and/or self-appointed dictator of fun was a person this is what it would look like.

 

"Self-appointed dictator"? Is that what you call the Developers?

[tidge]

13 hours ago, Herotu said:

Secondly, a small group of friends is cool and all, but it's again, not relevant to the circumstance I am describing above: NOBODY teams with a specifically self-imposed cap of less than 8.  The point being that although we are FREE to do so, we don't.

 

12 hours ago, Herotu said:

My point is that when you don't fill a group, it's not because to decided that you'd place a predetermined arbitrary cap on the number of members, although you are FREE to do so.

 

I see the fine line that is trying to be walked by using the adjective "self-imposed", but as far as I am concerned there is no practical difference between self-imposing a player cap (on something like a TF/SF) and self-imposing a time limit for "how long am I going to recruit for ____?" Writing only for myself: I don't like to spend more than 6 minutes recruiting for TF/SF. Unless I feel the assembled group is under-powered for the task, I'll launch with team sizes of less than 8.

 

Also like others, I absolutely play with buddies where we occasionally don't open smaller teams on  TFs to the public... this isn't because we're elitist, it's because we are cornballs who don't mind more of a challenge for game content we've all played many times before.

[BZRKR]

16 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

Is post #1 being accusatory or meliorism or combo of both?

It's just the most recent bait/troll/hot button post that gets posted by a low-post-count account every 4±2 days that many folks pile into for several pages.

[Herotu]

Just now, tidge said:

 

 

I see the fine line that is trying to be walked by using the adjective "self-imposed", but as far as I am concerned there is no practical difference between self-imposing a player cap (on something like a TF/SF) and self-imposing a time limit for "how long am I going to recruit for ____?" Writing only for myself: I don't like to spend more than 6 minutes recruiting for TF/SF. Unless I feel the assembled group is under-powered for the task, I'll launch with team sizes of less than 8.

 

Also like others, I absolutely play with buddies where we occasionally don't open smaller teams on  TFs to the public... this isn't because we're elitist, it's because we are cornballs who don't mind more of a challenge for game content we've all played many times before.

I'm sorry. I'm just going to refer you to the text you quoted. As you see, you never pre-determined the group size as the determining factor, but you could have done.

You don't limit yourself to just Training Enhancements. These are limits you *could* place on yourselves. The freedom to NOT impose them means they don't get imposed.

 

I once heard of a group that wanted to try levelling with just SOs. A special, one-off group that disappeared after a time (perhaps they were ninjas). The problem being that people bump up against the limitations placed upon them by the developers. Absolute freedom for freedom's sake is not desirable. Changes to the game that improve things by imposing some kind of  restriction aren't necessarily bad.

 

 

[Ukase]

14 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

But the devs can't even get the power tooltips to show accurate info and you want them to take the time to thoroughly document everything in game? That would be a huge nightmare. And where would you place the access point to that info? The trainers? The University? Both? Wouldn't it just be better if all of the trainers had a dialog option that said "If you'd like to know more in depth info about everything go to the Homecoming Wiki?

All valid points. But to be clear, I don't think I took the position that every thing in game should be documented. And if I did, I will publicly acknowledge I was being unreasonable to expect it. 

I mean, it'd be nice, but with a volunteer staff, not likely to happen. But the power tooltips? That should be a fairly simple thing to do, at least procedurally. Mundane, tedious? Perhaps. But difficult? It's just text. It's probably going to take more time finding the text within the code than anything else. 

As for your idea - I love it. That's really the kind of thing I'm hoping for, particularly for newer/returning players. And older folks who don't always remember important details like anniversaries and birthdays, let alone some of the lesser known tips/tricks of being a character in CoH. 

[tidge]

Don't try to drag me into whatever the "freedom" argument is. I'm exercising my freedom to not care.

[Ukase]

So, I refer again to my first post in this thread. The debate/argument - whatever it is. While I do appreciate we can all have different perspectives, and many of us recognize the good natured ribbing that's taking place between names that have been doing the whole "Guard-turn-dodge-parry-spin-thrust" in the Daffy Duck style, in the help channel, there's everyone seeing it, and it's not a good look. 

I get it. Someone says something that goes so very much against how you think, you just want to reach through the keyboard with a 5 gallon bucket of ice water or maybe boiling water and dump it on their ...um keyboard. Yeah. No need to scald people in real life. It is just a game. 

I've been there. Things going so nuts behind my keyboard and then come here, thinking I'm among friends and get the feeling I'm not, that's not a good feeling. So yeah, I understand some bitter replies to the very concise, logical arguments. 

A really good friend asked me if I wanted to be wise. Like a fool, I said sure. He refers me to a quote by Sam Levenson. 
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite. Sam Levenson

So, I'm going to try and shut up now. I think I've made some decent points and will call it a win. I got stuff to do anyway. 

[Seed22]

13 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I have a great disdain for farmers and the corruption they caused to the AE.

That being said, I salute the farmer that said that to a new player.

Hm. Well actually after reading what you put I’d like to point something out that’s always vexxed with your camp. 
 

You people who “play the game the right way” are farming, when you get to 35 and repeat the ITF 5 times on Kill Most thats a farm, when you make an alt and repeat the same 6 TFs on blueside thats a farm. 
 

And another interesting thing, for all your grand standing about how great the content is, a lot of you “purist” won’t touch red or goldside content. 
 

I’m going to ask that you purist enjoy the game your way and understand others enjoy the game(vet farmers specifically not noob players) their way. 
 

I have my tinfoil hat theory as to why you all cant do that though but its very condescending and mean so I won’t elaborate

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

If getting experience of the late game destroys the enjoyment of the early game--that doesn't speak well of the quality of the experience of the early game.

The leveling experience is terrible. The game’s age really shows and its missions are absolute trash and thats putting it nicely. It is the worst leveling experience I have EVER experienced in any game I have ever played, and that’s including day 1 Diablo 4. 
 

But when you don’t play anything but CoH and or are blinded by nostalgia and a strange almost borderline sycophantic loyalty to either the ways of old or the game itself you get purist telling you “yOuR pLaYiNg wRoNg” when you want to skip the tedium.

 

Edit: And another thing, I PL because I don’t always have a consistent schedule for gaming. There have been times where I have disappeared for weeks to at most a couple of months at a time for RL reasons from the game. PL’ing helps me stay engaged with the game.

 

If I had to level every toon “the right way” every time I wouldn’t play at all. Potentially having to take 6 months to a year to get a 50 versus pumping one out in a 4 hour session on a Saturday. 

Edited June 5 by Seed22

[Bionic_Flea]

22 minutes ago, Ukase said:

and then come here, thinking I'm among friends and get the feeling I'm not

 

*Gives Ukase a bro hug*

[tidge]

29 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

The leveling experience is terrible. The game’s age really shows and its missions are absolute trash and thats putting it nicely. It is the worst leveling experience I have EVER experienced in any game I have ever played

 

Hard disagree. I'll describe a just-this-week experience of getting a blue-sider to level 24. I'll note I have "starting funds" and a stocked SG base.

 

1) Launch the character in Outbreak, bought some START stuff (AoE temp attacks, 8 hours of buffs (24 Kinf at level 1), some travel stuff, disabled some drops... but no 2XP)

2) After Outbreak, went to AP. Still no 2XP.  Did a scrub arc and the first Matthew Hasby.

 

I want to note that while in Atlas (and later zones) I was careful to never have more than 10 bars of Patrol XP (mostly from exploration)

 

3) at level 5, I went to KR to do 3 radios and then the first Safequard.

4) Went to Hollows and completed the Flux arc

5) Went back to KR and did the second safeguard to unlock the "Save the Fortune Teller" contact.

6) After these, I was at level 15 (leveraging patrol XP), so started Montague's arc (still haven't finished it) because I then did

7) 3rd Safeguard... and I verified that if you already have Montague, detectives in neither Steel canyon nor Skyway City will give a new contact!

8 - Joined a Positron 1

9) Did the 4th Safeguard (Summon Teammates!), started doing TIPs (which are fun content IMO).

 

This isn't a trash experience! Notice I didn't include a DFB, and I barely touched "regular contact" missions. I've already out-leveled the "newer" content in the Hollows, Steel Canyon and Faultline... and I have only the first TF completed. I still have many zones to use for Patrol XP (also, day jobs). My experience red side is very much the same, except that PUG SFs are fewer in number.

 

If I feel like I've entered a doldrums period after level 30, I'll do the PVP zones content, Ouroborous initiation, join some more TFs, etc.

 

[Triumphant]

Regarding new players: I think the most important thing is just to be as polite, patient, and non-judgmental as possible.  When new players go into the help channel in-game, or the HC Discord, or here to the forums, and they ask questions or make a suggestion about something that they experienced in the game, don't immediately dog-pile on them and j/ranger them (they won't know wtf that means, anyway- other than someone is trolling them) and give them the benefit of the doubt as a new player trying to learn the ins and outs of the game.

 

I think a lot of us that have years of play time invested in this game forget how many moving parts it has, how many unusual quirks (combined with changes that the devs have made over the years), that are either undocumented, unobvious, or a combination of the two.  This can be quite confusing to new players.  As with many MMO's, a new player may join a PUG to start experiencing the game and to learn the ropes.  If they struggle and do noobish things, don't give them a ration of you-know-what by berating and start criticizing them.  There's a learning curve to this game, and if we want to draw and retain new players, we need to be aware of first impressions and how they affect player retention.

 

This bunch (meaning our collective player population) is pretty good in that vein, compared to other MMO games (IMO, at least), but it still is something to bear in mind.

[Pleonast]

16 hours ago, Greycat said:

The game *is* easy to continue playing.

 

As far as "homework to play the game," *every* game from Tic Tac Toe or checkers on up means you have to learn *something.* And then build on what you've learned. Whether it's "Oh, if I move this piece here, I can prepare to jump multiple pieces of the other guy's" in checkers, "If I play this card first and hold off on that other one, I can pull off a really neat combo" in any number of CCGs (Magic, Pokemon, Sorcery, whatever,) or "Slotting *this* is actually more helpful over here" in COH. Expecting to play a game without learning anything - including how this is *not* WoW or Destiny or some other game - isn't realistic.

Actually, new players will hit a pain point starting sometime level 35 to 40. The game is balanced around having SO enhancements, but the current xp and inf curves means a character won’t be able to fill all of their slots if they’re only doing missions and task forces. 
 

Veteran players avoid the pain point by sending inf from another character, by playing the auction house, or by power leveling through it. Not great options for someone still learning the game. 
 

While most players will learn their powersets and archetype, it’s not really fundamental to the game—which is playing a superhero fighting villains. Focusing on things like optimal power picks and enhancements and level-50 content are all player choices. We shouldn’t be demanding that of new players, if we want to be welcoming. 
 

It’s possible we don’t want to be welcoming, and just play with the friends we already have here and a few newbies who can jump through our hoops. It’s okay to ride off into the sunset and slowly fade away. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

5) Went back to KR and did the second safeguard to unlock the "Save the Fortune Teller" contact.

You probably already know this - but in case you don't - at levels 10-14, you can speak with Azuria, your origin doesn't matter - and she introduces Trevor Seaborn, a 10-15 contact that gives you the Fortune teller mission. Sometimes, it's the first one he gives, other times he requires you to accept the silly "talk to security chief of Perez Park", and then you click on him again and abandon the undesired mission, and click again to see if he'll give the fortune teller. Sometimes, he's stubborn, but generally, within 2-3 tries, he gives it. 

I would expect Hugo Redding to do the same thing, but I know the Azuria path, so that's the one I take. Mind you - I don't talk to Azuria until that time at level 10. 

That's not to say my way is better or anything - just laying out another path you may not have considered. I tend to avoid radios because they don't give merits. The temp powers, in some cases are nice, though. 

[Excraft]

17 hours ago, Herotu said:

NOBODY teams with a specifically self-imposed cap of less than 8.  The point being that although we are FREE to do so, we don't.

 

Really?  How do you explain posts like these?

 

 

Hamidon is content designed for a full league, which is more than 8, so this group self-imposed a limit themselves.  There are other posts like these around with groups of 8 completing iTrials.

[Bionic_Flea]

Not to be that guy, but neither of those is a self-imposed cap of LESS  than 8.  😝

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Not to be that guy, but neither of those is a self-imposed cap of LESS  than 8.  😝

 

They are examples of self imposed caps though.  Running a team of 8 on content that's designed for a full league is a self-imposed cap. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

They are examples of self imposed caps though.  Running a team of 8 on content that's designed for a full league is a self-imposed cap. 

 

The day (or three days) I can solo Hami without anyone else busting in on my good time will be one for the ages.

[mechahamham]

5 hours ago, BZRKR said:

It's just the most recent bait/troll/hot button post that gets posted by a low-post-count account every 4±2 days that many folks pile into for several pages.

 

So because I don't have a high post count, I'm a troll? I'm expressing a genuine concerns and offering what I feel is a great solution, and am asking others for their concerns and solutions. What are your concerns about the new player experience and what ideas do you have to make it better?

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

I don’t understand why their opinion bothers you.

 

 

It isn't so much as their opinion, as its presentation. Their posts are often rife with passive aggressive remarks, such as "AE babies" for example. The player isn't content to live and let live, or find a compromise, it's THEIR way or you are wrong, as if they had any authority on the matter. And I take no small pleasure in pointing out their monologue, or pointing out their hypocritical statements. Consider for a moment, that player screams from the rooftops about the evils of AE and Farming, but not so much as a peep about -

 

-Mothership Raid! Broadcast for invite! Any level allowed!

-PI group LF6M! 

etc.

Astute people might realize the paradox here, which leads me to suspect are not in fact against "fast leveling" but are for some reason outraged that some people would rather play alone, and actually have fun and advance their character while doing it. Which is pretty much this - 

 

 

5 hours ago, Herotu said:

"Self-appointed dictator"? Is that what you call the Developers?

 

No, that is what I call players who feel they have the authority to dictate to other players on what they can or cannot do. The person in question is not a developer nor HC staff member, and thank god for that.