Still can't get started on Incarnate stuff.

[Maelwys]

Quote

So .... am I supposed to be able to find what to do next?  Like, go do every mission and task force in the game until I stumble across something?  Is there a signpost I missed somewhere?  Or is it intended that I go read a guide because the game itself never tells me?  Again, it's weird that Ramiel seemed to think I had everything I needed.  I feel like I missed a step and it's confusing.

Since you're already played Ramiel's mission line... I'm not spoiling anything for you by stating that in-game the player characters are supposed to be taking the "long way" to becoming an Incarnate. So rather than being bestowed the powers automatically by the well, instead they have to work for it.

That's probably as close lorewise as you're going to get to a reason for why there is so little handholding in-game for incarnate power crafting.

As to how you actually craft Incarnate stuff and progress?
Well, others have already pointed out the wiki and this guide on the forums; but I'll add my 2p below:

Just "continuing to play" once a character hits level 50 will get you Incarnate Experience Points as well as plenty of "Incarnate Shard" and "Incarnate Thread" salvage.
Shards and Threads can both be used to purchase various sorts of useful Incarnate Components within the incarnate crafting interface (accessible via your character's Powers Tab). This salvage is in turn converted into the different Incarnate Abilities themselves.
This conversion/upgrading process is a bit like Invention Enhancement Crafting. First gather the ingredients (shards/threads/components/etc) then use those to craft something you want, such as a better ingredient (higher-tier incarnate components; and lower-tier Incarnate Abilities) then ultimately an "Enhancement" itself (amaximum-tier Incarnate Ability). After you have some Incarnate Abilities fully crafted, you can select one of them to place into each of your available empty Incarnate Slots; which activates them.
Some Incarnate Abilities are passive, others are toggles, and others are clicks. They'll all appear in your available powers list so try dragging them out onto your power tray.
Higher tier Incarnate Abilities are generally "better"; and some of them grant very useful additional bonus effects like a "+1 level shift" in regular and/or incarnate content.

On Homecoming, after you hit level 50 you get granted Incarnate Threads and Empyrean Merits just for "continuing to level up" - see Veteran levels.
You can also gain additional Empyrean Merits and higher-tier Incarnate Components for completing certain content arcs.
Empyrean Merits (along with some other merit types) can be used in place of threads/shards/etc within your incarnate crafting interface. They are an extremely efficient means at crafting "Rare" and "Very Rare" Incarnate components (which normally require a ridiculous amount of threads/shards/influence to craft); so typical advice is to use threads/shards to craft "Common" and "Uncommon" Incarnate components; and save your Empyrean Merits for crafting "Rare" and "Very Rare" Incarnate components.
Any spare Empyrean Merits you end up with can be emailed to other characters on your same account in order to give them a head start - and you can also convert 50 Empyrean Merits to/from 1 Transcendent Merit at the merit vendors in order to make this process faster (because only one merit can be sent per email!).

Also, in case you missed it; Alpha Slot Abilities are likely the only thing that you'll realistically be using Incarnate Shards on. There are two sets of recipes used for creating each of the Alpha Slot abilities -  one set requires components that are crafted using Shards, the other requires components that are crafted using Threads. The other types of Incarnate Slot Abilities - Destiny, Lore, Judgement, Interface, Hybrid - all just use components that are crafted using Threads. So after you've completed all the T4 Alpha Slot Abilities you want then you'll likely just convert any leftover/future Shards into Threads.
After you've completed all of your T4 Incarnate Abilities... Threads can still be useful to purchase Super Inspirations at Luna's store in Ouroboros.

For anyone who really doesn't want to engage with the Incarnate System; Luna's store is a useful means of converting all those pesky Incarnate Threads into sellable stuff...

  
 

Edited June 6 by Maelwys

[Frostbiter]

The recipe list in the Incarnate menu has a very hard to notice scroll bar. That should really be addressed. It comes up as an issue for new 50's all the time.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

The recipe list in the Incarnate menu has a very hard to notice scroll bar. That should really be addressed. It comes up as an issue for new 50's all the time.

 

The UI scrollbar issues are not limited to the Incarnate menu. See also the Recipe crafting menu, the Ouroboros menu, etc.

 

As most everyone else wrote: The Incarnate system is possibly the most confusing aspect of "character building", as it includes unlocks, crafting, and multiple possible power picks.

 

My own biases:

 

I tend to ignore the Incarnate system and content. I like that I can now solo it, and earn it without grinding on PUGs as on Live.

 

I will eventually slot Alpha, to get the +1 level shift, and to get more oomph of some set of attributes.

 

The other attributes and tiers will usually only get slotted when I want to play with buddies in "Incarnate" or "Hard Mode" content.

 

Personally? Originally (Live) I saw the Incarnate system as being mostly a way to get powers that my ATs couldn't normally have: AoEs, Heals, Shields, Pets, whatever. I used to like this, now I'm less inclined to think this is necessary, even for solo play. I never took Enhancement Diversification personally, but I won't ignore how Alpha can improve performance.

[Zombra]

Y'all I looked at the Incarnate menu again and realized that the powers start at the BOTTOM of the chart instead of at the top.  I was previously clicking through starting at the top, checking a few powers and thinking that these ingredients didn't exist anywhere .... just had to go all the way down to craft the beginner ones first.  Those ones I can make from those components in the Convert tab, which are made from the million threads and shards I've been getting.

 

 

[Triumphant]

4 hours ago, Zombra said:

Y'all I looked at the Incarnate menu again and realized that the powers start at the BOTTOM of the chart instead of at the top.  I was previously clicking through starting at the top, checking a few powers and thinking that these ingredients didn't exist anywhere .... just had to go all the way down to craft the beginner ones first.  Those ones I can make from those components in the Convert tab, which are made from the million threads and shards I've been getting.

 

 

 

Don't feel bad, my friend.  I did the same thing, initially (I imagine many of us did).  It's not intuitive and there's no explanation of "start here and work your way up" anywhere.  

[Doc Spectre]

I initially found having a shard system and a thread system for making the same stuff extra complicated. If it was up to me I would covert the shard rewards to threads and dump shards entirely.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Doc Spectre said:

If it was up to me I would covert the shard rewards to threads and dump shards entirely.

There’s a button to convert shards to threads…

[Eiko-chan]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:11 AM, Digirium said:

No, there is not enough information in the game to learn all about incarnate powers.

Not to say the system is by any means easy to understand, but this statement is just false. I have never looked at a guide, a wiki, or used any resource outside the game to glean my understanding of the incarnate system. The information is there. It requires understanding how to parse the powers of the game, and I do not deny that I actually have a very high degreee of system mastery for this game, but I fail to see what you need from outside the game to actually get around to having all your slots filled with Tier 4 powers. I certainly managed it somehow.

 

Now, my choices might be sub-par, but I play solo partially so I don't have to deal with those conversations. I'm here to have fun doing stuff, not to run the fastest, tightest four star content.

[Ravenplume]

Nice little grumble moment for me a couple days ago.  My Human Only Peacebringer dinged 50 near the beginning of the second to last mission of an ITF, so ported to base to train.  Then after the final mission, I was unable to select the Ancient Nictus Fragment as my reward.  Why?  Alpha was still not unlocked...It was at 94%.

 

I thought all this time that as long as I was a 50, I would be able to claim it.  So now, have to do it all over.

[Uun]

25 minutes ago, Ravenplume said:

Nice little grumble moment for me a couple days ago.  My Human Only Peacebringer dinged 50 near the beginning of the second to last mission of an ITF, so ported to base to train.  Then after the final mission, I was unable to select the Ancient Nictus Fragment as my reward.  Why?  Alpha was still not unlocked...It was at 94%.

 

I thought all this time that as long as I was a 50, I would be able to claim it.  So now, have to do it all over.

You need to have been 50 when the TF started to receive the Ancient Nictus Fragment. I wouldn't worry about running it again just to get the component. Just craft it from shards or craft your Alpha abilities with threads.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

Not to say the system is by any means easy to understand, but this statement is just false. I have never looked at a guide, a wiki, or used any resource outside the game to glean my understanding of the incarnate system. The information is there. It requires understanding how to parse the powers of the game, and I do not deny that I actually have a very high degreee of system mastery for this game, but I fail to see what you need from outside the game to actually get around to having all your slots filled with Tier 4 powers. I certainly managed it somehow.

 

Now, my choices might be sub-par, but I play solo partially so I don't have to deal with those conversations. I'm here to have fun doing stuff, not to run the fastest, tightest four star content.

Agree - the only info about Incarnates that you can’t get in game is obscure details like how much damage Interface procs do. The crafting process and what each power does is very well detailed in game.

[Psi-bolt]

On 6/7/2024 at 12:10 PM, arcane said:

Agree - the only info about Incarnates that you can’t get in game is obscure details like how much damage Interface procs do. The crafting process and what each power does is very well detailed in game.

 

Just to add, Mender Ramiel explains the basics of crafting Incarnate abilities, how to obtain components for the Alpha and later slots, and the tiers of abilities.  After that, the rest only take a bit of looking around the UI.

 

Homecoming has also GREATLY simplified the process by allowing you to get Incarnate Exp from pretty much anything you do at level 50 and giving you threads and Empyrean merits as rewards for leveling up.   Literally, even if you never do a single Incarnate trial, TF or story arc you could get Tier 4 in every slot just by playing the character a lot.  

[Crysis]

Back when Incarnate system first launched on Live I too struggled with the system.  What threw me (still does) is the dual path approach to crafting I-components: shard-based vs thread-based, at least for the Alpha slot.  Then there’s the “build both sides of the tree to T3 before building a T4” mechanic, the Very Rare drops and how to obtain them, why some iTrials reward incarnate components but bringing provides threads, all the QOL changes HC made to the incarnate system (and the cheese way to grind out incarnate powers via Heathers repeatable DA missions) etc etc.

 

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that much of this complexity was designed to keep level 50’s playing (and subscribing on Live!) for a long, long time as “endgame rewards.”  So it was made more complex than it really needed to be.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

My biggest gripe isn't that the system is complicated or totally different from the previous 50 levels but that i can't see the whole thing at once.  Instead I'm left scrolling up and down trying to remember I need some enchanted sand, arcane doodads, living relics ... scroll and flip between create and convert tabs which until I've done it a bunch of times making what I'm trying to do and learn very "hidden" until I've done it a bunch of times.  Basically the presentation makes it more difficult to learn.

[oddrobin]

I hear ya! I decided one day to buckle down and figure out this incarnate stuff and did I ever! I made my own guide from all the notes I took figuring things out. Maybe it will add to all the help people have given you here, maybe it is just another bunch of gobbledygook. Anyway, see what you think about The Need-to-Know Inarnates Reference. 

 

It is intimidating, but it really is just crafting. The most interesting thing about the system that I have come to admire is that everything you craft for incarnates you have to earn yourself. There's no buying any of the stuff off the auction house. The one exception is that you can email Empyrean merits to yourself from other characters on the same account. 

 

Good luck and please hmu with any thoughts or questions. I'm always happy to help if I can!

[Grouchybeast]

On 6/6/2024 at 2:10 PM, Frostbiter said:

The recipe list in the Incarnate menu has a very hard to notice scroll bar. That should really be addressed. It comes up as an issue for new 50's all the time.

 

It's a sad testament to the design of the UI, but this is probably the single most useful piece of advice about the Incarnate crafting system.  I remember on the live servers how long it took me to find that stupid scroll bar.

[srmalloy]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:52 AM, Maelwys said:

so typical advice is to use threads/shards to craft "Common" and "Uncommon" Incarnate components; and save your Empyrean Merits for crafting "Rare" and "Very Rare" Incarnate components.

The one counterexample I can think of is, since it's a readily repeatable source of Empyrean merits, is to join a Hami raid immediately after unlocking your Alpha slot and pick the 4 Empyrean merit reward, then convert three of them to threads and use them to make your first Alpha boost to get rolling as fast as possible -- you can complete a Hami raid a lot faster than you'll ding your first vet level for the 120 thread reward, and with a tier 1 Alpha already slotted, you can use the 120 threads when you do get your first vet level to make a tier 2 Alpha. But that's the only time I can think of when you can justify converting merits to threads.

[Pleonast]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:10 AM, Frostbiter said:

The recipe list in the Incarnate menu has a very hard to notice scroll bar. That should really be addressed. It comes up as an issue for new 50's all the time.

I gave up on the Incarnate system for a long time, until a friend pointed that out to me. 

[Zombra]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:10 AM, arcane said:

Agree - the only info about Incarnates that you can’t get in game is obscure details like how much damage Interface procs do. The crafting process and what each power does is very well detailed in game.

 

Technically, yes - the information is there, but ... is anyone else reminded of Hitchhiker's Guide?

 

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

 

[RCU7115]

Here's a visual guide 

 

[Azari]

The esoteric arts must be sought out. Life on Earth does not merely hand you knowledge of the occult. It isn’t taught in schools.

Edited June 13 by Azari

[Zombra]

1 hour ago, Azari said:

The esoteric arts must be sought out. Life on Earth does not merely hand you knowledge of the occult. It isn’t taught in schools.

 

Eh.  I'm up for puzzles and mysteries, but that obviously was not the intent here.  The designers simply tried to give a clear explanation and failed.

 

Edited June 13 by Zombra

[Eiko-chan]

13 hours ago, Zombra said:

Technically, yes - the information is there, but ... is anyone else reminded of Hitchhiker's Guide?

Honestly? No. Not even a little bit.

 

All the information is in a single window, easily accessible from any level by clicking on the 'Incarnate Abilities' button on the Powers tab. Ramiel has a run-down at the end of his arc, but you don't really need it. The Create tab shows the abilities and lists the ingredients. The Convert tab has the ingredients and shows their costs. 

 

I'm legitimately baffled by what people aren't grasping about the system. What's so hard to understand? This is more-or-less how the Invention System works. Do people not know how to craft Inventions either? 

[Greycat]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:57 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

I cannot say enough bad about how they implemented the Incarnate system.  Nothing in it feels considered, or intuitive, or anything in the neighborhood of "thoughtfully designed"; it should have been like another page of powers (like your primary/secondary), but nope, here's a block of unformatted something or other with lots of blindly undescriptive names and confusingly unfamiliar navigation methods -- have fun!  I'm not sure I can think of one thing that went right, it's all bad-choice turtles all the way down.

 

 

But it's *great* for keeping people subscribed so they keep access to it. And the more time they have to spend in game reading through it ... (and yeah, it's why I said in the Q&A questions post that it felt "tacked on.")

[Zombra]

54 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

I'm legitimately baffled by what people aren't grasping about the system. What's so hard to understand? This is more-or-less how the Invention System works. Do people not know how to craft Inventions either? 

 

This is a ridiculous and frankly insulting comparison.  The Inventions tutorial walks you through every menu, shows you where all the buttons are, explains the meaning of every window, and guides you through the actual creation of an IO.  The contact to show you the tutorial pops right up in your Contacts window.  It holds your hand so tightly the circulation cuts off.

 

Conversely, the Incarnate system never even draws attention to the Incarnate Abilities button - the button is there to be sure, but after spending dozens or more hours levelling from 1-50, it's not that weird to forget it is there at all.  Who even looks at their Powers window ... ever?  I don't.  And once you even find it, opening it up doesn't help much without explanation.  The Equip window is not really like anything else in the game, and of course when you open it up you have no powers to slot, so even if you've unlocked the slots, the window contains no actionable information.  So right off we're starting with at best a "This makes no sense. Oh well, maybe later it will."

 

Then there's the Create menu - again, the top recipes contain ingredients you literally cannot have at that point, with no way to learn about them unless you (a) happen to notice the pattern in the power names (which I did not for a long time) - or (b) exhaustively search every single one trying to find something recognizable ("Well the first 8 of these make no sense.  Come on lucky #9!").  So that's not great.

 

Lastly, we have the Convert tab, which starts off with Shard conversion.  Even though I played at 50 for a lot of hours before even finding this window, I didn't have enough Shards to make anything, and I had never seen any of these incarnate salvage types before.  I had no idea what any of these things were until I flipped back and forth a few times and saw that some of the powers in Create required some of these salvage types as part of (but not all of) the requirements.

 

Yes, once you finally get to Threads, you probably have enough of them to at least start making some salvage, and yes, by the time I got to this point I was beginning to piece things together in my mind.  Up until that point however the entire system was clear as mud.  Looking through so many things in a row that didn't make any sense did not make it smooth and easy to finally get to where it did.

 

And let's not pretend that there aren't a ridiculous number of currencies and intertwined loot systems in the game.  Maybe I need to spend Merits to access some of this stuff?  Do Enhancement Catalysts work into it somewhere?  That can't be right.  Maybe this has to do with Legacy Salvage I saw in the auction house menus, or maybe I need to be doing very specific Trials or TFs to even think about doing any of this, because I'm pretty sure there's stuff like that out there.  Do I even have the pieces I need to start putting this puzzle together?  I don't know.  It's perfectly possible there are whole systems out there, of which I'm unaware, that I have to engage in to even get the pieces.  Yes I figured it out eventually in this case (with minimal but key advice from other players) but as someone who doesn't like to ask for help the learning curve is far, far steeper than it needs to be here.

 

If what you're looking for is you are smart and I am dumb, then fine - I'm happy to admit that I'm dumb, and anyone who figured all this out at a glance is smart.  So good, yes, you're very smart.  I don't think that invalidates my frustration, or the fact that even without a tutorial, the menus could be laid out in a way that isn't front-loaded with inaccessible jargon, and doesn't require you to start at the end and work backwards to have any hope of unraveling it.

 

Edited June 13 by Zombra