In light of the success of Striga going co-op

[Ukase]

I realize I'm not the first one to make this suggestion. At least, I wouldn't think so, but have we considered a path that makes sense for the Shadow Shard to be co-op? 
I am not saying this should be a priority. But somewhere on the queue of things to do, I wonder if it would be feasible for a story arc or two to take advantage of all this space? Well, some of it. 

Also - I noticed when grabbing the explorations, I didn't get any tips, which I would get if I were in Paragon or the Rogue Isles. It could be it was never designed to get tips on purpose - no idea there. But perhaps it just got overlooked. 

 

[BurtHutt]

It's a success? Are lots doing co-op missions etc in there?

 

Shadow Shard....makes sense to make it co-op but the content in there really is not fun IMO. I am sure the HC team has the data to tell how you active it is in there but ...ya....I'd like to see Dev time spent elsewhere.

[Greycat]

11 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Shadow Shard....makes sense to make it co-op but the content in there really is not fun IMO. I am sure the HC team has the data to tell how you active it is in there but ...ya....I'd like to see Dev time spent elsewhere.

 

I don't know, that sounds like *more* reason to ask the devs to spend some time in there.

[Player2]

1 hour ago, BurtHutt said:

Shadow Shard....makes sense to make it co-op but the content in there really is not fun IMO.

 

Agreed.  I haven't done anything in the Shadow Shard since ye olde days of Live, and even then it was a few times and then I'd had my fill of it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Yes. I made a thread myself about this, a few years ago. I'm sure that I'm not the only one, and I seem to remember suggestions about fixing up the Shadow Shards and making them co-op, back on the retail forums. It's one of those suggestions that's been made a zillion times and has never been acted on, by any of the dev teams.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

but the content in there really is not fun IMO

So, beyond the scope of my post, but the character I was on was just grabbing the explores, but right at "badge 1" on the vidiotmaps list is a terminal. And I have a vague memory of a contact telling me to click on it...and retail has been ages ago, so I could easily be remembering something else. So, I set out to find General Hammond. And my level 44 character looked to be set to get some missions. I looked him up on the HC wiki - no story arc, just general missions. Well, I am about the merits, not the xp, so I passed. But he did intro me to Dr. Boyd. 
Same scenario. Just one-off missions, no arc. So, I passed. 

I can grasp why this area goes ignored. It's nice to visit, but the idea of hopping from island to island to complete an arc...well, that's bound to get old once the mission tp and team tp need a recharge. But, if it were a short arc, 3-4 missions for X merits or so, yeah, I'd probably explore that at least a few times. 

Given the reasons a lot of players do radios, the shard just isn't suited for those folks - as they want to avoid caves and have the maps fairly close together so there's little down time  - I don't think this would likely get a lot of attention. But, it doesn't hurt to ask or suggest it, so I did. 

But as far as fun goes - that's subjective. I think a new arc could at least be interesting, if not fun. Again, doesn't hurt to suggest it. 

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I can grasp why this area goes ignored. It's nice to visit, but the idea of hopping from island to island to complete an arc...well, that's bound to get old once the mission tp and team tp need a recharge. But, if it were a short arc, 3-4 missions for X merits or so, yeah, I'd probably explore that at least a few times. 

 

 

I think that's one of two big issues for the Shadow Shard: transportation.  If you're telling all your non-flyer characters that they're going to need jetpacks to get around (or some silly geyser jump techniques that don't auto-land a character on the next island), then you've basically just admitted to a design flaw.

 

The second big issue is the content.  Sure, the SS has some of the craziest, most-creative NPC opponents of the game, but so much of it has a homogeneous look, and is basically street fighting, that one or two islands can bore a player clearing them.  Retconning is a classic tactic in comic storytelling, so why not retcon the Shadow Shard with elements that fix these two problems? 

 

• Lore-wise, a modification of the medical teleportation system might be a good start for island hopping.  Each fort has a teleportation power tower for hopping islands (at least the dominant ones) in its proximity.
• Functionally, this could be an extension of the Long Range Zone TP.  Currently that will take us to a single location in each Shadow Shard zone. But if we could name the islands, or at least some military designation, players could make an initial tag of a designated spot on an island and use the LRZ TP to get around later.  Jetpacks would only be needed once, then.
• Story-wise,  that seems more of a creative challenge to improve beyond the whole Rularuu stuff, but we've had other zones go through dynamic changes before (Faultline comes to mind), so why must the Shards remain stagnant?  Just the incursion of red zone into the Shard should be enough to set up a whole new parcel of stories for both sides. 

 

 

Edited June 10 by Techwright

[Akisan]

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

If you're telling all your non-flyer characters that they're going to need jetpacks to get around (or some silly geyser jump techniques that don't auto-land a character on the next island), then you've basically just admitted to a design flaw.

 

But... the gravity jets are the best part!  If you're good at them, it can be faster than Teleport. (Though, if you're not, transport is a huge problem there).

 

2 hours ago, Techwright said:

Lore-wise, a modification of the medical teleportation system might be a good start for island hopping.  Each fort has a teleportation power tower for hopping islands (at least the dominant ones) in its proximity.

 

There are a few mole points scattered throughout the 1st shard.  As you progress through the story arcs in the zone, you unlock more of them, and the ability to teleport to and from the mole points and FBZ.  They could easily expand out this teleport network as they progress the story in the Shards.

 

Either way with the transport issues, I'd love to see the shards expanded on, as it's such a great set of zones (if a bit lonely and empty).

[PeregrineFalcon]

I'd say that the Gravity Jets need to be fixed (many of them don't work or don't send you to the right place) and then it'd be fine. Of course there'd also need to be a content revamp, like increasing the variety of the repeatable missions, and revamp the mobs so they'll be suitable to challenge Incarnates.

[golstat2003]

There should just be marked teleprt doors that can take you from island to island with no fuss or muss.

 

The whole travel schtick in the shard is why I went there once on Live and never again.

 

Plus as others have said put something interesting in there in terms of arcs and stories, and maybe shorten the length fo the tfs in there.

 

Anything other than what is currently there.

 

They need to FIX the Shard first, before bothering to make it co-op.

Edited June 11 by golstat2003

[gameboy1234]

On 6/10/2024 at 6:13 AM, Ukase said:

I realize I'm not the first one to make this suggestion. At least, I wouldn't think so, but have we considered a path that makes sense for the Shadow Shard to be co-op? 

 

Yup, lots of places in this game for content re-vamp.  I'd say more places than the devs have time to work on.  I wouldn't mind a re-vamp of the Shadow Shard, just a matter of folks getting time to do it.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 7:00 AM, BurtHutt said:

Shadow Shard....makes sense to make it co-op but the content in there really is not fun IMO.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 7:12 AM, Greycat said:

I don't know, that sounds like *more* reason to ask the devs to spend some time in there.

 

You want to consider marginal cost here.  For each dev hour spent, where do they get the most bang for the buck?  Shadow Shard is like level 40+, so only some of the population can use it, and needs a lot of work.  A minimal job probably wouldn't bring the fun.  So what else could the devs work on instead?  Anything that brings more fun for less work than fixing the Shadow Shard is a better proposition, and I'm pretty sure we could come up with lots of those.  Almost any content in the 30+ range could use some love, with the possible exception of Rikti War Zone.  Plus I think that "new player experience" is probably something that could be worked on almost constantly, and would be worth it.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 11:24 AM, Techwright said:

Retconning is a classic tactic in comic storytelling, so why not retcon the Shadow Shard with elements that fix these two problems?

 

I think my idea would be to start The Battalion invasion there, would kind make sense for them to latch onto whatever the Portal Corp. has been messing about with (you know, portals to unknown dimensions, what could possibly go wrong?), The Battalion can probably "feel" the disturbances or something.  Maybe start with Lord Recluse leading a red side invasion with his own portals, then a second revamp adds new critters and content and The Battalion.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 1:33 PM, Akisan said:

But... the gravity jets are the best part!  If you're good at them, it can be faster than Teleport. (Though, if you're not, transport is a huge problem there).

 

They're just too wonky and easy to mess up.  I'd put characters on some sort of "track" the fixes movement so they can't mess it up.  Just move them on a fixed path that puts them exactly where they need to go, without any effect by jump speed or height or anything else.

Either that or replace all gravity geysers with just flat out teleport pads.

 

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I'd put characters on some sort of "track" the fixes movement so they can't mess it up.

Putting visible tracks for approaching the geysers is a good idea. Including the ones in Pocket D's chalet. Like seriously, after all this time, no one including Longbow has bothered to mark the approaches so they don't launch their poor soldiers into nothingness?

[The Chairman]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Putting visible tracks for approaching the geysers is a good idea. Including the ones in Pocket D's chalet. Like seriously, after all this time, no one including Longbow has bothered to mark the approaches so they don't launch their poor soldiers into nothingness?

 

They do have visible tracks, though. At least, the ones in the Shadow Shard do. I've not spent enough time in the Ski Chalet to say for certain that the ones there do too.

 

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, The Chairman said:

 

They do have visible tracks, though. At least, the ones in the Shadow Shard do. I've not spent enough time in the Ski Chalet to say for certain that the ones there do too.

 

Yes, they do, but I can't count the number of times I've approached a geyser and not been sure of the correct approach to it. (And so find myself flying off to nowhere until I get teleported back onto a surface. It's why I either just fly or teleport through the Shadow Shard when I find myself doing anything in it.) Some are more clear than others for the correct approach.

 

Edit: It's the cave problem. It's all the same colors and textures. So I can't always see the differences that mark the approaches. Even in your screenshot, I'm having difficulty seeing the approach you positioned yourself to highlight.

 

Edited June 12 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

FWIW the zone maps also have lines drawn to show the geysers' intended trajectory.

 

(Not saying things couldn't be better.)

 

Edited June 12 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

Not the Storm Palace. (Edit: But at least now I know the other maps do. Thanks.)

Edited June 12 by Rudra

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

You want to consider marginal cost here.  For each dev hour spent, where do they get the most bang for the buck?  Shadow Shard is like level 40+, so only some of the population can use it, and needs a lot of work.  A minimal job probably wouldn't bring the fun.  So what else could the devs work on instead? 

 

 

Kind of a bit of a self-fulfilling loop there though, isn't it. If they don't work on the Shadow Shard, it stays as is - where there's not much content and only part of the population can use it, so why work on it when they could work on other things, which means not many people use it still, so the devs could spend time on something else instead, right, which means....

 

Yet if they work on it, they can add new content, potentially even making it coop... which means more people would use it (and thanks to it being mentioned, be *aware* of it,) older content being revamped, etc, etc. and I really doubt all too many folks would complain at the end that they did *that* instead of adding stuff HERE instead.

 

Of course, we're not paying the devs, and they've stated pretty flat out they'll work on whatever they find interesting, which throws the whole "If they work on THIS they can't work on THAT" bit out the window... if one of them wants to work on the Abandoned Sewer Network to add dancing Hydra in it, they'll do so, even if almost nobody sees them.

[gameboy1234]

24 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Kind of a bit of a self-fulfilling loop there though, isn't it. If they don't work on the Shadow Shard, it stays as is

 

Until it does rise to the top of the cost-benefit equation.  Which could certainly happen.

 

25 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Of course, we're not paying the devs, and they've stated pretty flat out they'll work on whatever they find interesting, which throws the whole "If they work on THIS they can't work on THAT" bit out the window

 

Which is why I said "dev hours" and not money.  It takes time to make updates.  If working on the Shadow Shard means no other updates for a long time, wouldn't it be better to work on shorter content that people can enjoy, at least until there is in fact a compelling reason to work on the Shadow Shard?

 

I think I've only got through the Library of Souls arc in Bricks arc once you get to level 30+ content.  Every time something better comes up.  Part of it is there's so mach farming (radios, Tina McIntyre) at these levels that it's just super easy to skip the arcs.  Part of it is that a lot of the content is very, very dry, so there's no real reason to do them  (and I think that's why people farm).  If the the arcs in that level range could be spiffed up, I think it would help more than trying to do an entire multi-zone revamp.

 

 

 

[UltraAlt]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:00 AM, BurtHutt said:

It's a success?

 

I'm wondering in what way it is a success as well.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 10:00 AM, BurtHutt said:

Are lots doing co-op missions etc in there?

 

As far as I know, there are no "co-op" missions in Striga like there are in First Ward and Night Ward.

Striga now has villian access, villain, missions, and a villain strike force.

I just ran the Striga arcs on a hero team and we weren't sent to any of the villain contacts ... because they are "villian" contacts and not "co-op" contacts.

 

Maybe heroes can join a team lead by villians and run their villain missions?

 

I have no idea. I have never seen this go on myself.

 

So, yeah, I'm back to....

 

On 6/10/2024 at 10:00 AM, BurtHutt said:

It's a success?

 

There really is no reason to create or change zones into co-op zones since there is an alignment system for those that really want do the content content that being a true hero or true villain wouldn't allow. That's why the alignment system was added in the first place.

 

I don't know about other people, but I don't play Praetorian content because it is a morally-gray dystopian environment.

I may not know how other people feel about it, but there aren't many that make characters over there for a reason.

Even less characters are made in Praetoria than villian characters. 

 

I say, don't ruin the HERO gaming experience simply to satisfy less than 25% of the player base.

Edited June 13 by UltraAlt
minor wording/sentence structure correction

[UltraAlt]

On 6/11/2024 at 1:16 AM, golstat2003 said:

There should just be marked teleprt doors that can take you from island to island with no fuss or muss.

 

The whole travel schtick in the shard is why I went there once on Live and never again.

 

On 6/10/2024 at 2:24 PM, Techwright said:

I think that's one of two big issues for the Shadow Shard: transportation. 

 

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Putting visible tracks for approaching the geysers is a good idea.

 

You know they put a day job with perks specifically so that characters didn't have to deal with the geyser at all.

 

I remember having to respec a character to get flight just so I could do the Shadow Shard content.

After that they added a day job.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dimensional_Explorer_Badge

The day job was added well before the Sunset.

 

You can even use the day job power along with the geysers to avoid falling.

 

Also, we have Team Transport Power, Mission Transporter, Assemble the Team, and https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Teleportation#Teleport_Target.

If you are running with a team, it should be relatively quick to get around especially if you are willing to spend some inf and possibly share some inf with others so that they can get at least 3 of those powers (obviously, one would require a power pick).

 

On 6/10/2024 at 4:33 PM, Akisan said:

There are a few mole points scattered throughout the 1st shard.  As you progress through the story arcs in the zone, you unlock more of them, and the ability to teleport to and from the mole points and FBZ

 

It seems to me that there are plenty of methods to get around there.

 

 

Edited June 13 by UltraAlt
Mis-used Teleport Team when I meant to say Team Transport power + plus some more cleaning up with links to the powers I intended to reference.

[golstat2003]

24 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

 

You know they put a day job with perks specifically so that characters didn't have to deal with the geyser at all.

 

I remember having to respec a character to get flight just so I could do the Shadow Shard content.

After that they added a day job.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dimensional_Explorer_Badge

The day job was added well before the Sunset.

 

You can even use the day job power along with the geysers to avoid falling.

 

Also, we have Mission teleport, Team Teleport, Assemble team, and Teleport Target.

If you are running with a team, it should be relatively quick to get around especially if you are willing to spend some inf and possibly share some inf with others so that they can get at least 3 of those powers (obviously, one would require a power pick).

 

 

It seems to me that there are plenty of methods to get around there.

 

Needs to be more. And as has been pointed out, movement is NOT the only problem with the shadow shard. They need to fix ALL of those issues (not just movement) before they make it co-op.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Needs to be more. And as has been pointed out, movement is NOT the only problem with the shadow shard. They need to fix ALL of those issues (not just movement) before they make it co-op.

 

I don't believe that they need to make it co-op.

Rogues can get there.

 

If the "red side" DEV feels like they want to create villain content there. I'm sure they will.

From my point of view, it will not be a useful addition to a majority of the player base.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

You know they put a day job with perks specifically so that characters didn't have to deal with the geyser at all.

 

I remember having to respec a character to get flight just so I could do the Shadow Shard content.

After that they added a day job.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Dimensional_Explorer_Badge

The day job was added well before the Sunset.

 

You can even use the day job power along with the geysers to avoid falling.

I don't stay in the Shadow Shard any longer than it takes to play whatever content I am playing there, jetpacks can be bought from the vendors in the Shadow Shard, and almost all of my characters have some form of flight these days. (The ones that don't will never be taken into the Shadow Shard. Because I don't want to have to log off and wait for a few days to get a day job power to help me get around the zones, I don't want to buy jetpacks for my non-flight characters because it doesn't fit their theme, and I struggle with the geysers.)

 

Edit: And then as far as the geysers go, there is this: "Note that there are two geysers (one in the Chantry and one in the Storm Palace) that shoot you straight up. If you don't steer, you will land right back at the geyser you jumped from! You'll have to figure out yourself which way you want to go and go there. Both of them shoot you very high so you'll have plenty of time to steer, assuming you have superjump or superspeed on." (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Shadow_Shard) So yeah, the only reason why I may take a runner character into the Shadow Shard to do anything is because (at least now thanks to @megaericzero) I know I can look at most of the maps and see how the geysers work.

 

Edit again: Also, Assemble the Team is worthless for getting around the Shadow Shard unless you are on a team and someone on the team gets to the destination.

Team Teleport is better replaced with just Teleport for getting yourself around, and I don't know of any non-MMs that even take Team Teleport these days. (Though yes, they would be very helpful for non-flying, non-teleporting characters on the team.) Teleport Target is also worthless for getting around the Shadow Shard unless you are on a team with someone else who has it to yank you to the mission. And most of the time? They won't, they just pop into the mission and clear it while you are still trying to navigate your non-flying, non-teleporting keister to the mission. Mission Teleport and Team Transport are the only non-power pick powers that are actually of any use in the Shadow Shard, and even they are worthless when the missions are street sweeps for specific mobs.

 

Edited June 13 by Rudra
Edited to add missing closing parenthesis. And delete erroneously placed one.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Because I don't want to have to log off and wait for a few days to get a day job power to help me get around the zones

 

If I've made a character and don't intend them to get any travel power from a travel pool, the Shadow Shard is one of the Day Job my characters get. Not because I don't have enough influence to get them some kind of flight from the START vendor that they can use in combat, but just because it's there to gain for free.

 

But I fully understand that other people play  differently.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

jetpacks can be bought from the vendors in the Shadow Shard

 

Seems like the DEVs tried to makes sure that characters had a way to get a flight power to augment if not replace the geyser system.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Also, Assemble the Team is worthless for getting around the Shadow Shard unless you are on a team and someone on the team gets to the destination.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Team Teleport is better replaced with just Teleport for getting yourself around

 

Use Team Transport Power (I posted "Team Teleport" in error. It wasn't want I intended. They are both "TT". I corrected the other post.) to get everyone on the team to a mission.

Use Mission Teleport to teleport yourself to a mission. Once you are at the destination, you are the the someone on the team that can use Assemble Team to get the rest of the team there.

Two ways - per character - to get the entire team to a mission in the Shadow Shard quickly.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Teleport Target is also worthless for getting around the Shadow Shard unless you are on a team with someone else who has it to yank you to the mission.

 

If the fastest character can get there first and has Teleport Target, they can teleport the rest of the team to the mission as long as they have slotted enough range in Teleport Target.

 

 

Edited June 13 by UltraAlt

[Rudra]

48 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If the fastest character can get there first and has Teleport Target, they can teleport the rest of the team to the mission as long as they have slotted enough range in Teleport Target.

Which would be nice if they did. One of the (many) reasons I prefer to play solo is specifically because on teams where we have Teleport Target, if I'm not the one that gets to the door 1st and starts recalling stragglers, no one does. They just go in the mission and get it done. I've been on too many TFs where I sat outside recalling team members to the mission only for the mission to finish while I am still recalling people or for the mission to finish just after I enter after recalling people. And this even happened on teams where I know half the team had Recall Friend (at the time). Except the other 3 people with Recall Friend ran inside, one ran to the end and recalled the other 2, and they finished the mission while the rest of the team was still being recalled to the mission and not even inside yet.

 

Edit: Look, this is very tangential to the OP, so I'm stopping here. Yes, there are ways to navigate the Shadow Shard and not all of them require power picks. Would it really be so bad for the actual geysers to have more visible approaches than they currently do though?

 

(Edit again: And yes, I know about the Team Transport power. That is why I posted it in my earlier reply as a useful power for getting around the Shadow Shard as long as the mission is not a street sweep.)

 

Edited June 13 by Rudra