yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[DoctorDitko]

The one use case for KD->KD enh is in Storm's Tornado pseudo-pet.

It turns it from a chaos-causing ADD pet to one which latches onto a single target and grinds them down to nothing.

[Ukase]

As Pete's uncle used to drill into young Parker's noggin, "With great power comes great responsibility". 

If you're going to use KB, I personally seldom care where the npc started, nor where they end up - until it impacts me somehow. And I'm not talking about being too lazy to use the F key. 

In my case, lately I've been on some characters that rely on the npcs being in my AoE to get some benefit to my character - whether it's Drain Psyche boosting my regen/recovery, or I'm using Fault on my stone brute to boost my recharge 100% for 10 seconds. Or maybe it's Consume for my fire tank. 

Regardless of what it is - when someone uses an ill-timed KB or Fold Space, it can have a negative impact on my character's ability to perform at the level I wish it were accustomed to. 

It's not the end of the world, because I've played energy blasters before. And - even on this stone brute that I just finished incarnating to t-4, when I'd reduce the difficulty just to get through certain missions for the reward tables, despite having zero problems with KB, suddenly, because I'm +1 or +2 or even +3, some of those mobs are flying. Even with my fairly recent bane, some of the mace attacks send lower level npcs flying. I was solo in these examples, so it's not the end of the world, but I can certainly understand why this annoys people. 

So, you just have to imagine your Peter Parker aka webhead and imagine how you're going to manage your great power. 
Don't knock them down the hall, knock them into the closest wall. Or - attack from above and have them kb'd into the ground. 

 

Or - simply take this approach with those who would presume to lecture you on how to manage your power: 

"Sorry - but I'm not sorry. Part of my fun is watching these npcs fly across the room. I'm not going to waste a slot just so you aren't bothered."

Granted, that approach isn't going to win you any friends, but it certainly makes it clear that you're there to have fun. If they don't like it, that's just too sad. 

 

After all, KB is is damage mitigation. When they're flying where ever, they aren't doing any damage to you or anyone else. 

It can slow teams down, particularly those who aren't used to dealing with it. But we'll all live and be fine if the a given TF takes 2 minutes longer than expected. 

[WumpusRat]

7 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

It's just about as bad as Fold Space, which also confounds AoE players and tends to make each crowd you attack all about you.

The people with hair-trigger Fold Space buttons can be incredibly annoying when I'm playing a brute or scrapper with aoes. I'll jump into a pack of mobs, start to do my aoe stuff to tear them apart, and suddenly all the mobs are 20 feet away because someone decided to Fold them somewhere else. After the first couple times I just stopped leading the way and just waited for them to pull mobs, and then dumped my aoe stuff. Makes it a bit more tedious (for me at least), but at least I'm not wasting my powers as much.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, DoctorDitko said:

The one use case for KD->KD enh is in Storm's Tornado pseudo-pet.

 

 

See, that's a different thing... I'll put those in pets, because while *players* can learn to use KB effectively and strategically, the AI in game is more A than I and never will.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

The problem is always with those playing melee characters that don't want other people's characters to use DEV-given powers.

I run a Blaster that dislikes teammates using KB.  

 

If you want to change this statement to "The problem is always with those playing CHARACTERS WHO DO NOT WANT ENEMIES THEY ARE FIGHTING TO BE YEETED that don't want other people's charaacters to use YEETING powers" I think it would be more accurate.

[GM Crumpet]

It's a choice. If I'm solo then I'll KB as much as I like and enjoy bouncing people around the map. If I'm teaming I try not to. Playing something with important melee skills like a warshade or tank/brute it can be deadly to gather everything up then just as hit the button to do what you are going to do the other players knock them aways and you get nothing. Fold space/ shadow slip are amazing, but no good if someone decides it's boom time and my delicious dinner the enemies are nowhere to be seen.

Edited July 1 by GM Crumpet

[High_Beam]

Two words . . . Nova

 

You may think its only one word but it is so awesome it twice as powerful a word.  Boom and KB!

 

But all shtick aside.  Before there was such a thing as KB to KD IOs there was a thing called tactical positioning.  Tanks didn't herd into the center of the room they brought em round to a corner or to a shipping container and then my energy Blaster would torrent their asses into the wall KB and KD as a bonus and the mob wasn't scattered.  Or I hover blasted making the KB into KD, she was called High Beam for reasons more than a breast metaphor.  I have Zero KB to KD in my current energy blaster and zero complaints from any teammates.

 

Now where I do put those things is in crazy flinging powers like Wormhole and Waterspout.

[lemming]

I'll have to see if we can put together another Chaos ITF.  Bring all the storm/KB/etc...

 

It's fun when you lean into it

[Excraft]

2 hours ago, High_Beam said:

Before there was such a thing as KB to KD IOs there was a thing called tactical positioning. 

 

There are still outdoor maps where positioning isn't going to help.  Unless you would like to start telling others they must take fly or purchase a jetpack from the P2W vendor and fight from above every battle.

[Shin Magmus]

     I'm sorry you're having issues, but your teammates are having issues too and you're causing them.  Energy Blast is a troll set and it can't be "KB used effectively" because of its random nature.  Both the regular AoEs have an assinine 60% KB chance instead of a useful 100% one, contrasting a power like Gale.  What this means is that no matter where you aim, how you play, or what you say: Energy Blast leaves some of the enemies behind in their original positions and always causes scatter.

 

     Energy Blast cannot be used to group enemies up, it can only be used to spread them out.  This is why all the good advice recommends slotting KB-to-KD in Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast.  It's not my fault that Energy Blast as a set is so deeply flawed, because there are good and consistent AoE KBs and Repels that can be used to execute enemy-condensing strategies like "Hurriherding", but it is what it is.  You're going to keep getting these messages from players unless you just stop playing Energy Blast without KB-to-KD, because the set is inherently that bad.  If you like the idea of KD as mitigation though, you could reroll as Water Blast and immediately have a better experience. 

[kelika2]

one of these days im going to fucking snap and make a fourth account just for knockback characters slotted for knockback

i started doing the math as well.

takes me 25ish minutes to clear out an atta cave firefarm and it takes 8 runthroughs to get to 50.  thats 4 hours per alt assuming no breaks and i got a solid jug near my PC

and knockback enhancements are cheap as hell too.  500k-1m each enhancement in most instances

[Snarky]

12 hours ago, Oklahoman said:

 

I see a lot of complaining about Fold Space, but I've never found it near as irritating as Destiny's Incandescence in the wrong hands.

Hey, I was only Incan-ing before the MSR.  And how was I supposed to know it was instanced?  I do not read the full ad.  I am busy scanning channels and sharing my wise thoughts…

[NotsoevilDM]

13 hours ago, Akisan said:

As far as KB goes:  There's good KB (keeping critters off the back line, mashing entire groups into walls/corners, perma KD), and bad KB (keeping critters off the tank/front line, scattering groups, knocking critters into your support).

 

Playing on Little Red Rooster (Sonic / Fire Blaster), I tend to only use Shockwave when I can blast mobs into a wall or a corner.

 

Saying that, I will also use it as a panic button when I inevitably aggro half the room, Not had any complaints so far!

[Shin Magmus]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

Or - simply take this approach with those who would presume to lecture you on how to manage your power: 

"Sorry - but I'm not sorry. Part of my fun is watching these npcs fly across the room. I'm not going to waste a slot just so you aren't bothered."

Granted, that approach isn't going to win you any friends, but it certainly makes it clear that you're there to have fun. If they don't like it, that's just too sad. 

     The fundamental issue central to every KB spammers "arguments" about fun, is that they implicitly state that their fun is more important than anyone else's.  That's literally what those statements imply: "my fun is MORE important than the fun of 7 other people on the team."  It's very rude to think that way, while being actively detrimental to everyone around you.  It's also solid justification for anyone to kick you.  

[ZacKing]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I'm sorry you're having issues, but your teammates are having issues too and you're causing them.  Energy Blast is a troll set and it can't be "KB used effectively" because of its random nature.  Both the regular AoEs have an assinine 60% KB chance instead of a useful 100% one, contrasting a power like Gale.  What this means is that no matter where you aim, how you play, or what you say: Energy Blast leaves some of the enemies behind in their original positions and always causes scatter.

 

     Energy Blast cannot be used to group enemies up, it can only be used to spread them out.  This is why all the good advice recommends slotting KB-to-KD in Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast.  It's not my fault that Energy Blast as a set is so deeply flawed, because there are good and consistent AoE KBs and Repels that can be used to execute enemy-condensing strategies like "Hurriherding", but it is what it is.  You're going to keep getting these messages from players unless you just stop playing Energy Blast without KB-to-KD, because the set is inherently that bad.  If you like the idea of KD as mitigation though, you could reroll as Water Blast and immediately have a better experience. 

 

I disagree with a number of things you've said here and absolutely disagree with your assertion that simply playing an Energy blaster is enough for someone to be kicked from a team.

[WumpusRat]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

Or - simply take this approach with those who would presume to lecture you on how to manage your power: 

"Sorry - but I'm not sorry. Part of my fun is watching these npcs fly across the room. I'm not going to waste a slot just so you aren't bothered."

 

The only problem with this approach is that it can backfire on you spectacularly.

 

"Yeah, and MY fun is locking enemies in a Detention Field and watching them be unable to do anything."

"And mine is dropping Dimensional Shift onto packs of mobs because it's amusing to see their attacks fire off and hit nothing."

"Mine's slapping Black Hole onto a group of mobs and spamming /taunt and /laugh at them while they futilely glare at me."

 

So my question would be, would any of those things annoy you while you're on a team doing missions? Even "defeat all" missions, where you have to stand around waiting for those enemies to pop out of the 30-second long invulnerability bubbles? What happens if the person with it KEEPS doing it?

 

Because I've had it happen, and it's REALLY annoying after the first couple times.

 

Some people don't like knockback. Others don't like people randomly going afk for 5m every other mission. Others want to speed-run while others want to do defeat-all even on maps that don't require it.

 

TACTICAL knockback is all well and good. Punting enemies into a wall that's a step away? That's fun. Hover-blasting and knocking them to the ground? Awesome, I'm all for it. But constantly yeeting them 20 feet away so as a meleer I have to chase after them, and it kills my aoe damage? Yeah, I'mma be grumpy after a bit.

 

The trick is to find people who like the same things you do. If a group doesn't like knockback, and you argue that "my fun is X, tough luck if you don't like it", it's a rather selfish path to take, and I certainly wouldn't bat an eye if the group leader punted someone who made that argument, particularly if I'm playing a melee character.

[Shin Magmus]

12 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I disagree with a number of things you've said here...

I disagree with your disagreement.  Nothing further, your honor. 

[Seed22]

50 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     The fundamental issue central to every KB spammers "arguments" about fun, is that they implicitly state that their fun is more important than anyone else's.  That's literally what those statements imply: "my fun is MORE important than the fun of 7 other people on the team."  It's very rude to think that way, while being actively detrimental to everyone around you.  It's also solid justification for anyone to kick you.  

The boot button exist for Ultra Alt’s way of thinking. Find one of them on your team? Kick em. Bonus points if its a TF they need.

 

Wanna go thinking your fun is more important? Okay. You’ll learn to stop thinking that way, and VERY quickly when you get booted so often

[Videra]

This is a thread that definitely needed to exist.

Please just slot KB->KD, the effect on KB is incredibly disruptive and actively makes the game harder for your team. That is all.

[UltraAlt]

23 minutes ago, Videra said:

This is a thread that definitely needed to exist.

 

Do a search. This has been brought up time and time again.

 

23 minutes ago, Videra said:

Please just slot KB->KD, the effect on KB is incredibly disruptive and actively makes the game harder for your team. That is all.

 

Not true.

That's what you believe, and it is your opinion.

 

How many character and powers have you slotted KB to KD in?

 

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

That's literally what those statements imply: "my fun is MORE important than the fun of 7 other people on the team."

 

Sounds like many tanks and brutes that I've been on teams with while PuGing.

 

2 hours ago, NotsoevilDM said:

Playing on Little Red Rooster (Sonic / Fire Blaster), I tend to only use Shockwave when I can blast mobs into a wall or a corner.

 

Saying that, I will also use it as a panic button when I inevitably aggro half the room, Not had any complaints so far!

 

Apparently, you haven't been on teams with some of those posting here.

Gratz on that!

 

4 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

Energy Blast is a troll set and it can't be "KB used effectively" because of its random nature.

 

This simply is not true.

That is your opinion.

 

If the powerset was that disruptive, the DEVs would have removed it long before the Sunset.

 

There is no "random" nature to it.

 

9 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

If I'm teaming I try not to. Playing something with important melee skills like a warshade or tank/brute it can be deadly to gather everything up then just as hit the button to do what you are going to do the other players knock them aways and you get nothing. Fold space/ shadow slip are amazing, but no good if someone decides it's boom time and my delicious dinner the enemies are nowhere to be seen.

 

... and I keep seeing so many tanks and brutes not running with taunt and - even if they have it - not using it every time it is recharged (it cost no END so why not use it every time it recharges?)

If they are taunted and get knocked away, they run right back to you - they can't attack your teammates - and they can't attack you until they get back into combat range.

 

But I understand steamroll/"hulk smash"/bull-in-the-china shop - no tactics and only one mode of game play ... really sucks for people that like to actually figure out a way to work together as a team that isn't focused on a tank or brute doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again because they think they are "the big man on the team".

 

Seriously. Those kind of teams are no fun for me ... especially when they tanks or brutes doesn't taunt, core a mob, rush onto the next group, and expect the rest of the team to clean up the mess that they leave behind.

 

 

Edited July 2 by UltraAlt

[Laucianna]

If you can control your KB as some of the player base have and have given examples of it here, great! Keep it up ❤️

However with the speed of the game at the moment by the time you have moved into position, half the mobs are already dead and you get less damage for your buck. Personally I slot all my AoE with KB/KD and only keep the KB in ST as it is much easier to control one mobs direction with KB then it is to target the right enemy, get into the right place, mentally note where other mobs will be knocked back to so your AoE doesn't just make it harder on the rest of your team 🙂

At the end of the day it's a team game, I understand wanting to use KB same as MM wanting to use group fly on MSR, but if your small bit of enjoyment is making the game less fun for 7-47 other people then you have to ask yourself, is it worth it to keep that?

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, Laucianna said:

but if your small bit of enjoyment is making the game less fun for 7-47 other people then you have to ask yourself, is it worth it to keep that?

Normally the answer is no.

 

But for Ultra Alt and people who think like them, the answer is yes sadly. Its why if you find someone trying to put their fun above others, use the boot button!

[Shin Magmus]

11 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

There is no "random" nature to it.

     Please don't lie when you quote me; the randomness is clearly defined in the powers themselves and verifiable in-game, but you can check City of Data for a more reliable source.  Energy Blast's AoE KB is a chance, and the chance is not 100%.  Some of the enemies will go where you intended when you use Explosive Blast or Energy Torrent, but other enemies will *randomly* be left behind.  The distance between these 2 new groups of enemies is quite large; resulting in a messy fight that's worse for everyone involved. 

[Ghost]

Just wondering aloud……

 

I wonder how many of these “boot em” advocates, have used a phrase similar to “let people play how they want” in other threads…..

 

 

I know of at least one

Edited July 2 by Ghost

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Videra said:

This is a thread that definitely needed to exist.

Please just slot KB->KD, the effect on KB is incredibly disruptive and actively makes the game harder for your team. That is all.

 

No, no, and no it doesn't. That is all.