Changes to the game/IOs SOs

[Living Brain 3000]

One aspect I wish City of Heroes would implement to enhance the game's challenge is the removal of SOs (Single-Origin Enhancements) above Enhancement Level 35. After this level, the game should be balanced around Base IOs (Invention Origin Enhancements), as the numbers indicate that Base IOs are stronger than SOs beyond level 35. The game would remain unchanged for pre-level 35 enhancements.

 

Admittedly, this would require significant effort, but it offers a more engaging alternative to simply adding 4-star Task Forces or creating areas like the Labyrinth. Some might argue that this is a free game and the developers are unpaid. However, considering the consistent release of challenging content, such as new bosses in enemy groups like CoT or Warriors and 4-star content, it's evident that the game evolves with tougher scenarios.

 

A common counterpoint is the extensive changes needed for several story arcs, task forces, and missions. However, adjusting enemy stats to align with IO levels shouldn't be overly complex. For example, a level 35 damage IO offers a 36.5% increase compared to a 35% increase from a level 35 SO. To balance this, enemy stats could be adjusted by approximately 1.5% to match the new enhancement levels. This minor tweak would align enemy difficulty with player capabilities without drastically altering gameplay, especially at higher levels where most players utilize sets. Balancing around sets can lead to an arms race between builders and number crunchers, but focusing on Base IOs provides a more stable foundation for game difficulty and could possibly enforce a “meta” to the game. By making the game balanced around Base IOs we don’t get that arms race and we don’t force a meta to the game which I am firmly willing to bet the devs don’t want.

 

Let me know your thoughts or arguments down below

[MoonSheep]

i often run TFs with the enemies buffed setting enabled, it encourages cooperation a lot more and a ‘classic’ CoH feel

 

IOs broke the game in my opinion, rebalancing would be challenging

 

edit: i’m curious to whether removing IOs would even make a huge difference, if a team had a kin and cold def on board things would likely still roll nicely. the average player’s understanding of the game and its mechanics are far greater than on live

Edited August 19 by MoonSheep

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

One aspect I wish City of Heroes would implement to enhance the game's challenge is the removal of SOs (Single-Origin Enhancements) above Enhancement Level 35. After this level, the game should be balanced around Base IOs (Invention Origin Enhancements), as the numbers indicate that Base IOs are stronger than SOs beyond level 35. The game would remain unchanged for pre-level 35 enhancements.

 

If you want to play that way, go for it.

No one is stopping you from playing the way you want.

 

4 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

Some might argue that this is a free game and the developers are unpaid.

 

Are you trying to argue that isn't true?

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

/jranger

 

SOs do fine as they are thanks.

[Apogee]

The post reads like an AI chatbot

[GM Impervium]

Moved to suggestions and feedback.

[Laucianna]

I believe the meta is between sets and procs no? I don't think balancing the game around IOs is the right way forward as it will just equate to a stat bonus which for me at least isn't fun to fight against, what is fun is unique mechanics to enemy types that are unique to them, like Sappers, Carnie illusionists, Crey protectors for instance. The game at the end of the day is a superhero fantasy game, and from what I have seen a lot of people enjoy it for the more casual play where every power combo can be used, if we make the game more challenging in all aspects of the game it changes the feeling of it. It's why I like the Advanced mode content as a form of challenge within the game to test yourself ❤️ 

[Greycat]

No.

[JKCarrier]

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

The game at the end of the day is a superhero fantasy game, and from what I have seen a lot of people enjoy it for the more casual play where every power combo can be used, if we make the game more challenging in all aspects of the game it changes the feeling of it.

 

This. I am categorically against anything that makes the base game harder. You already have plenty of tools to increase the challenge for yourself, if you want to. But have some pity on us scrubs who just want to log in and work off some stress by steamrolling over bad guys.

[Psyonico]

If you remove SOs, you're just going to end up with people above 35 having empty slots, which doesn't sound much fun.

[Projector]

2 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

 

This. I am categorically against anything that makes the base game harder. You already have plenty of tools to increase the challenge for yourself, if you want to. But have some pity on us scrubs who just want to log in and work off some stress by steamrolling over bad guys.

I don't think this suggested change makes the base game harder overall, it would just adjust combat scaling to be around IOs past level 35. That's all. So, the only point at which the game gets harder when you hit level 35 and haven't upgraded to IOs yet. Which, could be problematic the same way that the old leveling walls around DOs and SOs were back in live.

My bigger concern is moreso around drops, but I think there could be in-game lore reasons that could turn basic training IOs into drops as well as buyable enhancements from the stores once you hit level 35 and that wouldn't be problematic necessarily. There would probably need to be something additional added in the form of a popup box or something that explains that SOs are no longer effective for post 35 content and encouraging players to start getting training IOs.

Now that I think about it though, the drops and store changes would have to happen once you hit level 32, not level 35, as it would need to be at the minimum level that you can start slotting said enhancements. Though, I supposed normal training IOs could just start dropping as soon as you hit their earliest available level, and then they just upgrade in drop rate once you're 32.

I honestly wonder if just adding the training IOs to the drop pool would be enough, rather than outright removing SOs. 

I don't think this is a bad idea, I just don't know what fundamental problem it solves for the game. I know not everything should be seen that way, sometimes a QoL change is a QoL change and that's fine. I just wonder, of all the complaints of issues I typically see, such as MM pets not being even level at 50, or Controller/Dom usability in harder content, etc., where this really sits and if it's important enough to be worth that much developer investment. 

The main hurdles I have in my mind to this are mostly market-based--

• Selling SOs is a decent way to keep a basic income when leveling, especially if leveling with XP doubled. 
• The training IO recipes sell for a LOT more than regular enhancements, so, if the enhancements themselves turn into sellable drops, how will that impact selling price. Would the actual IOs be sellable at the market and buyable at the market? And if so, what price point would make sense if a level 50 damage IO recipe sells for 110k. Does that mean the enhancement should be purchasable for that amount? Or more? Or would the price of recipes need to come down, thus nerfing a source of income for many players.

I haven't mentioned farming in this mainly because while the financial side is relevant to how farming impacts the game, I know balancing decisions aren't made around farming and shouldn't necessarily be. So, the solutions to any market-based problem should start from a place that looks at the game as if farming doesn't exist, and then tweaked in anticipation of how farming could impact/abuse said changes. At least, that's how I've understood farming to be treated for game balancing issues. 

 

Personally, if the market questions could be reasonable addressed, I think a great compromise would actually be to leave SOs in the game as they are and just introduce IOs into the drop pool, similar to how SOs were changed to drop at much earlier levels.  Just make the IO drop rate rarer than SOs, so people are still encouraged to go build the recipes as they start adding them into their builds. Basically, IOs wouldn't drop enough to slot out a build as fast as SOs do, so SOs would still make up the bulk of a mid-game build, with Training IOs acting more like a special treat that makes seeking them out via auction house and crafting more enticing as players see the stat differences.

As it stands now, when they lowered level access to SOs, the change didn't require the removal of DOs or basic TO enhancements, so I don't necessarily think making training IOs available via drops would be particularly harmful, and if anything, would make the game even easier from level 35-50 if you don't adjust combat balance at those levels. Then I would keep set IOs still gated behind recipe drops and auction house. Those should be worth the extra effort required to receive the benefits they offer.
 

[Without_Pause]

16 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

If you remove SOs, you're just going to end up with people above 35 having empty slots, which doesn't sound much fun.

Common IOs exist.

 

At end of the day, the changes the OP is seeking simply aren't happening. The devs haven't even fixed various powersets. They certainly aren't going to change whole systems. 

[EnnVee]

I don't usually chime in on posts like these as a lot of the mechanics of the game are so far beyond me. That being said, I honestly see way more problems come from this than any kind of "balance" as the OP is looking for. 

• Increased price of already expensive IOs on the market
• forcing players to need to farm in order to afford any enhancements come level 32
• brand new players getting frustrated and leaving because they just figured out SOs 
• being forced to respec to alter your build for the use of IOs
• having to use 3 different types of enhancements as you level - this does not interest me in any way. I like using my SOs all the way to 50, they play just fine in regular content and low level TF/SFs I like the upgrade feature so I don't have to leave a mission or hold up a TF just to "catch up" on my enhancement levels. 

What I would like to see is a the option to Upgrade IOs if you happen to use them pre-50, like you can do with SOs. Change the upgrade feature to apply to anything NOT part of a set with bonuses. I think this would be a welcome feature for those who use IOs even early on. But I would not take SOs away, the monetary issue, the confusion it could cause, and the fact that the game is so old I think it would be more work than it's worth to do. 

 

sorry OP, I still luv ya

[srmalloy]

11 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

One aspect I wish City of Heroes would implement to enhance the game's challenge is the removal of SOs (Single-Origin Enhancements) above Enhancement Level 35. After this level, the game should be balanced around Base IOs (Invention Origin Enhancements), as the numbers indicate that Base IOs are stronger than SOs beyond level 35. The game would remain unchanged for pre-level 35 enhancements.

So the HC staff should stop all other work they're doing on the game to deconstruct the threat level for mobs 32 and above (the lowest level at which you can slot level-35 enhancements, and then completely reconstruct the combat abilities of all mobs that level and higher, in order to fit some preconceived notion that everyone switches completely to IOs as soon as they can slot level-35 enhancements? And, along with this, they would also have to rework all of the reward drop tables and come up with something to replace SOs in drops with something of equivalent value, since if level-35+ SOs are removed, they won't be dropping, and players won't be able to sell them for inf, in one swell foop removing a source of funds from the game -- and you have no suggestion as to what would replace them.

[Ukase]

Sorry, Brain. I think I understand where you're coming from - but the mere existence of the Upgrade feature suggests to me it is fairly normal for many players that actively play outside of farms to use SOs up to 50, and then cash in all their merits for whatever, to get the sets they want. 

As the game stands now, there's a number of sub-populations that play the game differently (in very broad strokes) 
 

• Some PL to 50 and then begin to play
• Some create the character and play to a given point, never reaching 50, because the dings are too far apart for their dopamine levels to encourage continued play (or other mysterious reasons - like lore, or their character concept, or perhaps they just don't like the npcs they'd face at higher levels)
• Some play to 50, never touch incarnate stuff and just start over with a new character
• Some play the same character, or few characters to 50 and far beyond and never make a new alt. Interestingly, in this group are some avid farmers. It's literally all they do. 

 

For me - I wouldn't notice any difference in my play, as by 30, I've swapped to IOs anyway. But, if SOs are useless past 35, what do I get in lieu of those SO drops? More IO recipes? Currently those sell at level 50 for 80-110K (guessing, no idea the exact price range) But, I know after something like an ITF with about 30 of those SOs, I can sell them for a fair chunk. If I got recipes instead, I guess I'd get more - which I'd be okay with - but if the drops just went empty, like I'm doing on Ouro arc, it does remove some of the financial incentive to put up with those annoying screaming men who lack the decency to even say, "Have at you!" or "En Garde" in the same fashion they scream. 

Being an older guy - I hate change. Usually, after things change anyway, I adapt and am sometimes okay with the changes once I get used to them. (like the insta-base tp we used to have)
I'm actually okay with the changes there, now that I'm used to them. And I'd be okay with this, eventually - but again, given the upgrade feature, I just don't see it coming to pass. The Upgrade feature is too useful, and people like SOs until 50 - because on a first character, players struggle with having enough influence and honestly, the differences aren't so great that a player might just forgo common inventions for the sake of simplistic ease. And those invention IOs are generally multiples more expensive than an SO, because of crafting costs. In some cases, there are badgers who can assist with their flooding the market with cheap IOs - but a first character player...they likely wouldn't be aware of the bargains that may, or may not, await them. 

Just my opinion, though. 

[Rudra]

No.

[megaericzero]

We had this thread two weeks ago.

Here's a quick excerpt:

 

On 8/4/2024 at 7:02 PM, megaericzero said:

On 8/4/2024 at 2:57 PM, scarlet_f said:

are you telling me they are ppl running around at lvl 50+ with Only SOs in their build? that's insane! why would you do that?

Because I have incurable altitis and no wherewithal to micro-manage my enhancements on the way to 50.

 

Some of us use SOs up to 50 and potentially even beyond. Not everyone has the time or energy to grind for IOs on every character, let alone for over half the character's career. Since SOs are currently the status quo, you're talking about taking that away from people.

[Living Brain 3000]

Lets address the common concerns in this post

1. We all want the fantasy of a super hero beatem up
2. This raises the price of IOs all around
3. New players might have just figured out SOs
4. The game play change is too big and or too much work for the devs
5. SOs are a money source
6. SOs are in place for those who have altitis
7. People who are above 32 will just have empty slots.
8. Buying SOs is quick and easy.

 

 

Lets start with the first issue that this is a super hero beatem up fantasy. Fine but this game is already a massive damage bomb when playing with the community this puts anywhere from a 1.5% for minions all the way up to a 4.5% change to AVs due to the level rules of Minions through AVs and their lvs.

Next this raises the Price of IOs all around which is true but if we are going to remove something we can up the drop rate for salvage and recipes which should offset the price point paid. Also lets be honest we all either have farmers or know someone who does that would let us sit in on their runs to get some Inf…

SOs are money source I will refer you to the argument above when it comes to price,

New players might have just figured out SOs. Yes that could be true and this game being balanced around SOs is part of the issue we as modern players know that IOs are better post lv 32 and beyond that sets are even better than that which makes SOs 2 “generations” behind what we are all using as modern players.

The game play change is too much work or too much for free to play game devs. Come on be honest they put out bug fixes new content new power sets and even recently a new zone if the devs wanted too they could bring this game to the a “generation” prior in balance and make this game ever so slightly harder for us the players.

SOs are there for those who have altitis. We all do but again most all of us have farmers or know of a person with a farmer who would let us sit in. This is the same as the money issue you have a 1000 slots for toons and most of us will focus on playing really 5-10 toons with friends and other 5-10 with just solo play. Truth is this game has so much cash flow in it that taking away 1 small form of cash flow is just silly.

People above lv 32 will just have empty slots. Okay fine this happens anyways unless you are playing the game and wanting to be top of the line for X content or you put things in every time you lv up then fine you have a small counter argument there. The reality is that us vets and even new players are taking the double EXP for 8 hrs and are only making money off oranges trainings and recipes.

Buying SOs is easy from the store. Fine want an in-game lore solution we say stores have modernized and are hiring the graduates from Blue (or red) side Unis and you can go as far as to but backgrounds in that say the mutant and magic stores take people from Croa. Natural takes from Founder and tech and sci take from steel. Same argument for red side.

Edited August 19 by Living Brain 3000

[Rudra]

Let's simplify this: No.

 

If you don't want to play with SOs post level 32? Great. Don't slot them. Just slot your IOs and be happy. However, because you don't want to use SOs post level 32 does not mean you get to take SOs away from players that do want to use them for any reason post level 32. It's that simple. You can play how you want, but you don't get to require others play the same way.

[Luminara]

20 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

One aspect I wish City of Heroes would implement to enhance the game's challenge is the removal of SOs (Single-Origin Enhancements) above Enhancement Level 35. After this level, the game should be balanced around Base IOs (Invention Origin Enhancements), as the numbers indicate that Base IOs are stronger than SOs beyond level 35. The game would remain unchanged for pre-level 35 enhancements.

 

Admittedly, this would require significant effort, but it offers a more engaging alternative to simply adding 4-star Task Forces or creating areas like the Labyrinth.

 

Your proposal is to make the game feel more challenging... by forcing players to use the strongest enhancements after level 35...

 

20 hours ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

To balance this, enemy stats could be adjusted by approximately 1.5% to match the new enhancement levels.

 

You think buffing critter powers by 1.5% will compensate for mandatory player power increases of nearly 40% per slot (a level 50+5 IO (53%) gives a ~38.5% increase in enhancement value over a +3 SO (38.3%) (and note that this is only the math for single attrib IOs.  multi-attrib IOs offer even more enhancement value despite the ostensibly lower value per attrib))?

 

I would very much like to see the calculation you used to derive a result of 1.5% = 38.5% * <number of slots>.

[Living Brain 3000]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Let's simplify this: No.

 

If you don't want to play with SOs post level 32? Great. Don't slot them. Just slot your IOs and be happy. However, because you don't want to use SOs post level 32 does not mean you get to take SOs away from players that do want to use them for any reason post level 32. It's that simple. You can play how you want, but you don't get to require others play the same way.

you are telling me you are fine with this game having pretty much 2 "generations" (Base IOs and Set IOs) better than what the game is currently balanced for? Yo are not willing to give this game a modern look just balance around Base IOs not sets just Base IOs? Again I addressed the cash flow issues and if you are not willing to see this game change for what would be the better with a 1.5% to 4.5% stat boost to the enemies in a game where this is a damage bomb game solo and more so in teams. We would be making enemies post lv 32 slightly harder. Its already horrid that new players need to solve TOs to DOs to then SOs we are talking about cutting steps out seeing as we already cut TOs out from merchants but no one cried wolf about that and we cut DOs out too from venders and no one cried wolf about that. Get rid of SOs too make the game streamlined and more new player friendly so they can solve 1 system and then learn the system of IO Sets as they go. The argument of just "well some people still use SOs" is weak that is like telling vet players that they are stupid and unwilling to learn to be better at this game.

[Living Brain 3000]

Just now, Luminara said:

 

Your proposal is to make the game feel more challenging... by forcing players to use the strongest enhancements after level 35...

 

 

You think buffing critter powers by 1.5% will compensate for mandatory player power increases of nearly 40% per slot (a level 50+5 IO (53%) gives a ~38.5% increase in enhancement value over a +3 SO (38.3%) (and note that this is only the math for single attrib IOs.  multi-attrib IOs offer even more enhancement value despite the ostensibly lower value per attrib))?

 

I would very much like to see the calculation you used to derive a result of 1.5% = 38.5% * <number of slots>.

We wouldnt even be forcing them to be using the strongest cause IO Sets exist we are talking about a version below sets we are talking base IOs. Yes its about 38.5% harder when you take in all the stats when you break it down stat to stat but this game is in a state of damage bomb in teams. If you dont keep up with a group in team play you might never hit anything this will force more damage or it is going to force us players into building better def res stats so that we dont get put into the floor like we put the mobs into the floor now.

[Rudra]

47 minutes ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

you are telling me you are fine with this game having pretty much 2 "generations" (Base IOs and Set IOs) better than what the game is currently balanced for? Yo are not willing to give this game a modern look just balance around Base IOs not sets just Base IOs? Again I addressed the cash flow issues and if you are not willing to see this game change for what would be the better with a 1.5% to 4.5% stat boost to the enemies in a game where this is a damage bomb game solo and more so in teams. We would be making enemies post lv 32 slightly harder. Its already horrid that new players need to solve TOs to DOs to then SOs we are talking about cutting steps out seeing as we already cut TOs out from merchants but no one cried wolf about that and we cut DOs out too from venders and no one cried wolf about that. Get rid of SOs too make the game streamlined and more new player friendly so they can solve 1 system and then learn the system of IO Sets as they go. The argument of just "well some people still use SOs" is weak that is like telling vet players that they are stupid and unwilling to learn to be better at this game.

You are missing the point. If you want to play with a challenge, then play with a challenge. If you want play pumped up, then play pumped up. Play however you want to play. The game lets you do that right now. Mobs too easy if you use set IOs? Then use generic IOs. Mobs still too easy? Then use SOs. Mobs still too easy? Then use the difficulty settings to make them more powerful and/or numerous. However you want to play, go right ahead. However, this does not give you the right to tell others that are also playing how they want that they have to play the way you want.

 

There are players in the game that play with SOs to maintain the game's original difficulty. There are players in the game that play with SOs because they are convenient, dropping from enemies and requiring no crafting or AH interaction. There are players in the game that play with SOs for whatever reason they have for wanting to do so. And you are calling to take that away so that you can make the game more challenging by taking away the weaker enhancements and requiring everyone to use the stronger enhancements, and then have the game re-balanced around that. That is you imposing your preferred play on others. You are demanding taking away what others are using, and the challenges they are currently facing, in the name of increasing challenge which players can already do using the options you are asking to take away.

 

Edit: Also, there isn't a single player that has to solve TOs to DOs to SOs. TOs don't drop. They are only available from vendors, and only specific vendors at that. You have to go out of your way to find TOs.

 

Edited August 20 by Rudra

[Greycat]

43 minutes ago, Living Brain 3000 said:

you are telling me you are fine with this game having pretty much 2 "generations" (Base IOs and Set IOs) better than what the game is currently balanced for? Yo are not willing to give this game a modern look just balance around Base IOs not sets just Base IOs?

 

Look at your first two sentences.

 

You admit the game is *currently balanced for* SOs.

Then you want to rebalance it over something stronger, making it ... no longer balanced for SOs, but balanced *past* that.

 

If the game is *currently balanced* for SOs, then it's fine. If you slot something that makes you more powerful than SOs? You can change your reputation and make it harder. That option is 100% on you.

 

If you rebalance to make it harder, you're making an *assumption* that people are slotting those things already. They may not be. They may not want to. There are people here who - you may want to sit down - do not like IOs, much less sets. Or who prefer an "old school" manner of play - there are even SGs dedicated to that.

 

While you weren't addressing me, yes, I'm (reasonably) fine with the game having "2 generations better than what the game is balanced for," because (a) it lets people build as they want, and (b) they can alter their settings and/or play hard mode TFs to play at those higher levels without affecting anyone else.

[Living Brain 3000]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You are missing the point. If you want to play with a challenge, then play with a challenge. If you want play pumped up, then play pumped up. Play however you want to play. The game lets you do that right now. Mobs too easy if you use set IOs? Then use generic IOs. Mobs still too easy? Then use SOs. Mobs still too easy? Then use the difficulty settings to make them more powerful and/or numerous. However you want to play, go right ahead. However, this does not give you the right to tell others that are also playing how they want that they have to play the way you want.

 

There are players in the game that play with SOs to maintain the game's original difficulty. There are players in the game that play with SOs because they are convenient, dropping from enemies and requiring no crafting or AH interaction. There are players in the game that play with SOs for whatever reason they have for wanting to do so. And you are calling to take that away so that you can make the game more challenging by taking away the weaker enhancements and requiring everyone to use the stronger enhancements, and then have the game re-balanced around that. That is you imposing your preferred play on others. You are demanding taking away what others are using, and the challenges they are currently facing, in the name of increasing challenge which players can already do using the options you are asking to take away.

 

Edit: Also, there isn't a single player that has to solve TOs to DOs to SOs. TOs don't drop. They are only available from vendors, and only specific vendors at that. You have to go out of your way to find TOs.

 

This game is a damage bomb when NCSoft put in IOs and then Set IOs it left them with the choice of make the game a  damage bomb like we have today or balance out for either sets or base IOs. NCSoft didn't want a meta forced down on people so they never wanted set balance. We up the power scale of the game already with new powers or tougher enemies in the form of Incarnate lvs and powers this is a small way to force balance and tougher things without adding more to the game. No one cried when TOs were taken away and to the solving of DOs and SOs originally the game didnt put things like (damage) next to the name of say an SO or DO so you had to go on the color which was fine but you had to know that back on live. TOs were easy in the fact it said Training Damage. Just Strip SOs out make vendors sell Base IOs. We can even up the drop rate of Salvage and Recipes like I have addressed above. In computer terms if Trainings were version 1 DOs version 2 and SOs version 3 then most of the player base is using version 5 when the game should be balanced around version 4 instead it is based around version 3 (SOs) this change is something again that adds nothing in terms of content but makes the game less of a damage bomb and more of a balanced set. Players should and will always be stronger than the enemies because you lv faster and or run sets or even multiple Base IOs. This is strictly to modernize the game for 2024 and beyond.