Thoughts on Fold Space Etiquette on Leagues and Teams

[Excraft]

I'm curious what everyone thinks about this particular topic.  Its something I've seen come up a few times now that the Halloween event is in full swing - players using Fold Space on ToT leagues teleporting mobs off of other players.  I've seen it happen quite a few times now where it's causing friction and grief among teammates on Leagues.

 

First, it appears there are a lot of players out there that don't know what Fold Space is or how it works, and they question in League chat why mobs are disappearing from around them.  Reactions to someone using Fold Space range from finding it utterly hilarious to getting pissed off and quitting the League.  Some have asked that it not be used while on the League.  Most everyone is polite and respectful and obliges and there's been a few who really were quite rude and refused to stop using it.

 

For me, I can see both sides here.  I've been ToT'ing with my Brutes and Tanks and have had someone teleport large mobs away from me.  We're all on the same team/league so we're all getting rewards whether I'm killing stuff or someone else is, so not a big deal for me.  I'll just move on to the next door.  Others apparently don't think it's all that funny.  I have seen some others get really angry about it and I can honestly understand their frustration.  We all like fighting stuff.  It's what all of us find fun and a big part of why we're playing.  Being engaged with a large mob only to have it pulled away from right in front of them is taking that fun away and enjoyment from someone else.

 

This Fold Space issue is along the lines of the whole use of Group Fly argument.  Some people like it and some people don't.  The question that comes up most is whether or not it's really needed.  At least to me, powers like Group Fly and Fold Space are situational.  If I had them, I'd be fine using it solo.  However, if I'm on a team and it's bothering someone else, I can adapt and oblige as I like to be courteous to fellow players.

 

Like I said, it doesn't really bother me but I can see how it bothers other people.  What's your take on Fold Space usage?  Is it ok/necessary to use on Leagues for ToTing or should it be used sparingly if at all?

[Mopery]

I always just deal with the situation as it evolves. If others are using Fold Space to chew up mobs, then I go knock on doors and leave the slaughter to others.

 

That said, it can be aggravating when you've just fired off Aim and Build Up and are about to hit that t9 power and nuke a group which, as you press the button, is no longer there.

-BOOM-

Empty space and the sound of crickets.

[COH Radgen]

I recently leveled up my first Grav controller...I don't have Fold Space but I do have Wormhole which can have a similar impact.  I tend not to use it unless I'm solo but I'm trying to begin to use it in specific situations.

 

Wormhole has knockback and disorient components which Fold Space does not.  I've been trying to use it by targeting the mobs around the tank to drop them on the tank.  With KB to KD slotted and disorient emphasized it can add some extra mitigation, especially if the tank begins to have trouble.  It can also be helpful to bring another group to drop at the feet of the tank (or brute, etc) for aggro management and team AOEs.

[Crysis]

In a game that’s -entirely- focused on defeating enemies to progress, and the nature of leagues of TOT’ers mostly focused around a few convenient spawn points (eg; Apartments in PI), I don’t really find the use of Fold Space that big of a deal.  In fact, I’ll routinely camp right in front of the awning at the apartments and just spam Fold Space over and over as it recharges.  I’ll often run across others who are doing the same and we coordinate it so we aren’t just moving packs of stuff 3-4 feet.  It’s makes for a pretty convenient killing field.

 

Now in a mission environment?  If we have a tank, I’ll plant myself by said tanker and Fold Space so the mobs come right to them.  If no tanker, but have players using sleet patches, bonfire, Marine pools, etc as the “killing spot” I’ll do likewise onto the patches.  More often than not, it just makes for a faster clearing team than taking on one spawn after the other in sequence.  

 

The only way I can think of where you‘d be “griefing” like with is if in using Fold Space you are actively depriving someone else of XP for a kill.  Given the nature of Leagues during TOT or Zombie/Rikti zone events, that’s highly unlikely to happen.  Unless you are a solo 50’ish player just running around and using it specifically for that purpose.  Which would require you to be highly selective about which critters you target (which is hard to do with FS itself) and your timing and the location you port them to has to be someplace the impacted League players cannot reach.   Do-able?  Yeah maybe.  Repeatable enough to deprive entire leagues of XP?  Not likely.

[Lunar Ronin]

Personally, I consider Fold Space a troll power, much like Black Hole and Dimension Shift.  It can be used well, but most people either don't know how to use it well, don't care to use it well, or both.  It's one of the reasons why I don't play melee characters on teams much any more.  I'm tired of PUGs Fold Spacing mobs out of my melee range after I've started engaging them.  And those PUGs Fold Spacing mobs out of my melee range?  Yeah, they tend to be Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders...

[Riverdusk]

My current character being a dark melee scrapper I know if someone on the team has fold space I'm going to be trying to soul drain a group that is no longer there at least occasionally.  It is annoying as it directly affects my killing ability, but I think I'm past the point of getting too upset about anything like that.  It's just a game and I know they aren't doing it intentionally.  I just go with the flow.

[Tax E]

Leagues - Fold Spacing into the mass of folks defeating mobs. I've seen this in ToT and in MSRs. I got used to it cause I knew it wasn't gonna change.

 

Teams - If I'm Tanking, I ask nicely if they can fold space the groups close to me. If I'm Fold Spacing, then I'll do just that. Fold Space to the one that can contain the group or manage the aggro. Of course this is where communication comes into play. Ain't that hard to type or even bind "Yo, I'm fold spacing these dudes right to $target!" Or whatever you wanna say to let people know what you are doing. One thing for certain, if you are fold spacing, be sure you can handle the aggro and not complain if you face plant.

 

I don't think of it as a Troll power unless it's my friends, then they are doing it on purpose and they know who they are... pricks. ❤️

[Lunar Ronin]

31 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

My current character being a dark melee scrapper I know if someone on the team has fold space I'm going to be trying to soul drain a group that is no longer there at least occasionally.  It is annoying as it directly affects my killing ability, but I think I'm past the point of getting too upset about anything like that.  It's just a game and I know they aren't doing it intentionally.  I just go with the flow.

 

I usually lead teams, and I don't want to kick people for using a legitimate power, so on the rare occasion that I do play a melee character and there is someone with Fold Space on the team, I'll generally run a few rooms ahead of the rest of the team and defeat all of the mobs in the room before everyone else gets there.  I feel like a bad team leader for running ahead of everyone else, but it's either that or start banning people from using Fold Space on the team.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Personally, I consider Fold Space a troll power, much like Black Hole and Dimension Shift.  It can be used well, but most people either don't know how to use it well, don't care to use it well, or both.  It's one of the reasons why I don't play melee characters on teams much any more.  I'm tired of PUGs Fold Spacing mobs out of my melee range after I've started engaging them.  And those PUGs Fold Spacing mobs out of my melee range?  Yeah, they tend to be Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders...

 

I generally feel using Fold Space is somewhat 'Trollish'. On a large league Fold Space is almost certainly not necessary.

 

What I find more trollish-than-not about Fold Space is that it rarely gets all of a spawn (and never level 54 Bosses), so it isn't protecting allies, and it feels really lazy for an event where the players are supposed to be moving to click on doors. During a ToT event, I see a LOT of players putting down debuff/damage patches, so tossing out Fold Space just because the player with it doesn't want to move to where the enemies actually spawn is a slowing down the DPS and defeats.

 

If the player using Fold Space (or the equivalent) predictably uses the power in a circumstance that is obvious to all teammates... I guess that is fine. It's essentially a worse form of knockback for scattering enemies hither-and-yon.

[Snarky]

if you know what you are doing (really really know) we love you.

 

the rest of you suck.  and i should know.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

If the player using Fold Space (or the equivalent) predictably uses the power in a circumstance that is obvious to all teammates... I guess that is fine. It's essentially a worse form of knockback for scattering enemies hither-and-yon.

 

Fold space doesn't do knockback or scatter particularly, and gathers them quite nicely. Especially if used by a 50+ also using super inspirations - which grabs even higher ranked enemies. Sure you aren't thinking of Wormhole?

 

And generally - all it takes is a warning a second or two before you use it so people know what's going on. The people I see using it generally dump mobs in th emiddle of a killing spot. (Or it's an MSR and they're dropped right in the bowl.)

 

Just communicate. Problem solved.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

 

Fold space doesn't do knockback or scatter particularly, and gathers them quite nicely.

 

When Fold Space misses critters, the critters are now scattered. RNG contributes to misses (especially against +4 enemies) and +4 Bosses don't get teleported.

[lemming]

It's one of my favorite powers when used right, but like anything can be used badly.

[Scarlet Shocker]

[biostem]

Like with many teaming issues, this again boils down to communication, (or the lack thereof);  TALK to you team/league-mates and let them know if you are doing something beyond what is normally expected, aka teleporting players or enemies around.  Just say "Teleporting enemies to my location" or something similar, and people will catch on.  It's this "I can't understand why people get pissy about me teleporting all the enemies away from where they're fighting without me telling anybody" attitude that needs to go...

[Laucianna]

I've been using fold space for over a year now and never seen the dislike for it by anyone like I have Group fly, granted I use it to pull mobs away from mobs into a more central location to stop people all swarming two doors and being unable to click them. Not sure if I am getting SUPER lucky with having zero complaints about it as it gathers a bunch of scattered mobs into one central area to be nuked, which is better for everyone who uses AoEs.

But Fold Space 100% has it's uses in a team/league so it's better to let people know how to use it more effectively rather then say Group Fly or Dimension shifting enemies which only helps the player but affects the league 💛

[High_Beam]

I use KB-KD IO in Wormhole on my grav/time but rarely use Wormhole in something like ToT.  I am in a group and as a member of a group I forego any personal hang-ups because I have chosen to be part of a group.  If the group generally doesn't appreciate it then don't do it.  It is the trade off you made.  If you dont like it, if that is telling you how to play, find a different group or solo, you do you.  But being part of a group means you don't always get to do what you want, have to accept what the group wants.

 

Again, its called society.

[Lunar Ronin]

It wouldn't help in a league setting, but for TFs/SFs and Ouroboros Flashback missions, perhaps it'd be good to add an additional setting of No Black Hole/Dimension Shift/Fold Space/Group Fly/Team Teleport.

[Ghost]

Rarely ever in a league.

 

when teaming, if I see someone using Fold Space I adjust my play and wait until after they fire it off before doing anything.

 

Much easier to adjust than to convince someone not to use a power….unless it’s Group Fly because they like seeing their little boys fly around.  Then I wait until the final mission to say something before kicking them to the curb

🤭

 

😈😈

Edited October 7 by Ghost

[Greycat]

31 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

It wouldn't help in a league setting, but for TFs/SFs and Ouroboros Flashback missions, perhaps it'd be good to add an additional setting of No Black Hole/Dimension Shift/Fold Space/Group Fly/Team Teleport.

 

I'm frankly against anything that allows turning off other peoples' powers. (Besides, I can just hear the "Add KB to that list!")

[Ghost]

34 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

I'm frankly against anything that allows turning off other peoples' powers. (Besides, I can just hear the "Add KB to that list!")

I agree.

Why stop with those powers?

Theres several more that people find annoying.

[Neiska]

Don’t recall Fold Space ever being mentioned good or bad in a league.

 

On teams though, it depends. If there is a tank or brute on the team, or even some scrappers, I tend to view them as the anchor. They are the ones who decide where we engage. 90% of the time it’s where the enemies spawned, but not always. I usually wait until they have a nice big pile before doing anything, and I usually use fold space to pull enemies who are staying ranged into the pile, or pull runners into the taunt aura.

 

On teams without a tanker or brute, it’s kind of the Wild West. It takes a few pulls to see what the dynamic will be. Sometimes in such cases it’s me on my MM or SoA that plants the flag, but just as often it’s a controller or dominator locking things down who decides.

 

So to me when it comes to tools like fold space, the key is to be flexible. Some circumstances call for it, others don’t. It depends on the team and difficulty. On some teams things die so fast that fold space isn’t even really necessary.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Neiska said:

So to me when it comes to tools like fold space, the key is to be flexible.

IMHO, if the rest of the team isn't expecting it or are just unfamiliar with the power, then it can lead to some confusion or frustration - kind of like folks using intangibility powers on enemies...

[ZemX]

Just about every PuG controller/dom I've ever met does worse when they glue enemies to the floor while they're spread all over the damn place.  Hell, Fold Space is one of the few things that can "fix" that problem if used properly.  And it's massively useful in Praetorian maps where the devs saw fit to spread the mobs all over the place almost to the point you can't identify where one spawn ends and the other begins and THEN they gave them exclusively long range attacks so they've no incentive to gather up on a Tank.

 

I'll take the occasional "poofgone" given the upsides.  If someone really does yank a whole mob away from me, they can have it.  I'll go get the next one ready.

Edited October 7 by ZemX

[Ukase]

So, I completely get that my perspective is probably unique and not shared by others. I'm used to it, lol. 

Fold Space is a game changer for AoE. That's why folks use it or misuse it. Almost nobody I've encountered has deliberately used it just before my drain psyche was about to execute, leaving me with no sustain. But, in this very thread, we see how easy it is to communicate - but anecdotally, I've never seen ANYONE ever communicate they were going to Fold Space. They just do it. Now, I'm smart enough to know what they're trying to do, and for me, it's more of an annoyance than something I'll get pissy and quit over. It's kind of like Incandescence when I'll have forgotten to enable the tp prompt. 

The problem with fold space is really ridiculous when you have more than one player with it, and they're just playing tennis with a group of mobs, and I feel like I'm the net. They're at X, now they're at Y. I see this happen a fair amount in the Grim Vale, which is generally just a large pug. 

I count myself as one of those players who's just not smart enough to use it properly. I've tried it in the msrs, and nothing ever happens. Nothing. It's like I didn't do anything. So, I just don't choose the power anymore. I'm not going to piss away 300M on some acc/threat/recharge enhancement, even though I could buy all of them if I wanted to. It's not worth it to me. I can use the F key and follow the mob if I need to. 

There is one case where I think Fold Space is particularly useful - and that's the labyrinth. Whether it's positioning yourself so you only pull the malevolent fog away from a hostile group, or in the Orange Font of Malevolence, or whatever the Achylus room is called. During parts of it - it's a good idea to be "anchored", and not all powers will reach to the other side of the room. So in that context, Fold Space is pretty handy. I don't know how many slots or the toHit and accuracy numbers need to be for these folks to make it work, but for me if it's not going to port a level 54 Rikti Magus, I'm pretty sure it's not going to port a level 54+8 Rikti Magus either. So, for me, it's a useless power that doesn't do anything except occasionally annoy me when someone else uses it. I think maybe the really annoying part is they make it work, and I can't. 

I have the power on maybe 5 characters. A few of those characters will get deleted, the other two will get a respec to get rid of the power and take something that works reliably. 

But as far as others using it, particularly in ToT - it's annoying -especially when the zone is crowded enough to where the npc is no longer targeted. I would prefer they didn't use it. 

But I don't see a solution that's as elegant as null the gull.