Null da Gull Knockback

[Snarky]

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

[Luminara]

 

[Ridiculous Girl]

ha ha ha! no...

 

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.   
 

1) default.  Powers act as normal

2) knockback to knockdown.  ALL powers act as if they have a KB->KD in them

 

3) bonus option.  All powers do knockback.  Muah hah hah

 

I suggest all powers do Knockback by default.  It can be switched off at Null, one power at a time so you can properly think about the benefits of keeping KB in every power.  (I mean, do you really want to turn off KB for your Heal Other power?  Really?  Are you sure?) 

 

Also, all powers reset to doing KB on respec, just in case you changed your mind.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:18 PM by Grouchybeast

[Struck]

Group heal with repel so you have to fight for it.

[tidge]

I'd vote 'no' for all my classic old reasons, plus a new one: If this option existed, I worry that TPTB would start leveraging Repel more often. As things stand now, I feel like I can mitigate Knockback (via slotting, or several immobilize powers), but I haven't found a satisfactory way to mitigate Repel.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

I mean, do you really want to turn off KB for your Heal Other power?  Really?  Are you sure?

Of course not -- "You're healed -- now, get out of my face; there are other people waiting."

[Grouchybeast]

39 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Of course not -- "You're healed -- now, get out of my face; there are other people waiting."

 

And if they needed healing in the first place. they must be taking damage.  You could easily get hurt with them just hanging around nearby!

[lyra]

make all KB to KD and sell KD->KB Enh. 

[JasperStone]

3 hours ago, Struck said:

Group heal with repel so you have to fight for it.

Fold Space effects the team as well ... 

 

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, lyra said:

make all KB to KD and sell KD->KB Enh. 

We already have KD>KB enhancements. They're called Knockback Enhancements.

 

As for the suggestion, the answer is always going to be no. Adding KB>KD is, in most cases, a DPS increase. Therefore it should require sacrificing a slot.

 

Also, a better solution for the game is to make KB more desirable, not make it easier to ignore.

Edited 21 hours ago by Wavicle

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

As for the suggestion, the answer is always going to be no. Adding KB>KD is, in most cases, a DPS increase.

 

So what?  When stuff like Fold Space is getting added to the game which makes herding/AoE DPS even faster/more efficient, why should KB > KD be treated any differently? 

[BurtHutt]

I hate KB 99.9% of the time. The only time I like it is I'm solo, in trouble and want to KB a foe.

 

I team all the time and there is nothing more annoying than herding the enemy group and then seeing them blown all over the place. It's annoying AF (as the kids say).

 

Anyway, I'd like to see this option instead of having to slot the proc to deal with this insanity. Also, I'd love it if any new powers did not have KB. It really is annoying! 

[Nerio72]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

All powers do knockback.

"I think I'll go for a jog..."

Turns on sprint...flies backwards

 

I vote YES!

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would suggest Null have a on/off for Knockback.  Global to character.  

Counter proposal;  All powers used by everybody across all servers knock back whatever character @Snarky is playing, (with those KBs queued up in the event that he's not logged in at the time).

[BasiliskXVIII]

41 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

We already have KD>KB enhancements. They're called Knockback Enhancements.

 

As for the suggestion, the answer is always going to be no. Adding KB>KD is, in most cases, a DPS increase. Therefore it should require sacrificing a slot.

 

Also, a better solution for the game is to make KB more desirable, not make it easier to ignore.

 

Or simply add a free toggle called something like "hold back" to the sets with a lot of knockback like Storm Summoning and Energy Blast that does -KB, -DMG. The problem that Captain Powerhouse points out in the linked thread, that anyone who refuses to turn KB off in team content will be made a pariah, is fair, but it ignores the fact that this already happens. I was in a Posi TF this afternoon with someone who accidentally misclicked and fired off a power and did KB, and even with no one saying anything about it (and I'll admit I didn't notice) they promptly dropped into chat "sorry about the KB, I haven't got the inf for the proc yet," 'cause they knew that some teams will get outright hostile about things like that. I love the KB on my Energy/ blaster, I've even slotted powers with the Kinetic Crash set for extra KB, but I'll never take it into a team, simply because I don't want to deal with the people with a bug up their ass about it. With my Storm/Storm corr, half of my powerset barely gets used in teams because I don't want the hassle of juggling a solo and a team build.

 

And KB only adds to safety if it's controlled. As long as the majority of debuffs in this game rely on keeping enemies within a fairly tight radius to keep them affected, Scattering enemies to the four winds might offer a bit of breathing room, but if that means they suddenly become un-debuffed you're making things much more painful on the retaliation. Ran Synapse yesterday, and with their KB weakness, the Brute's Thunderstrike kept sending his clustered mobs scattering out of target AoE toggles. The result was that the clocks would get up, shoot him now out of range of debuffs, and then run back in, usually getting a melee hit too before they got debuffed again. He faceplanted a few times from this before finally giving up on TS altogether. There wasn't much to be done for that but to accept it and roll on, but it was the perfect example of why KB kinda sucks for team content.

 

Do I think KB gets more hate than it deserves and that it's a lot of fun if done right? Absolutely yes, without a doubt. Do I think that it's fair that players using KB-heavy sets need to invest in a multi-million inf enhancement for each of the powers that they want to use in a team or get shat on? No, not really.

[PoptartsNinja]

The problem with Knockback isn't that it doesn't contribute to survivability, but that it doesn't contribute significantly more than a knockdown and can be actively detrimental by scattering things out of buff/debuff anchors, away from damage, and all the other arguments everyone already knows that we don't need to rehash.

If the perception is that knockback hurts damage, the solution is to add a damage component to knockback. Say, equivalent to a smashing damage proc to all knockback above an arbitrary but achievable magnitude (we'll say, mag 5), with a proc chance determined not by recharge but by the actual knockback magnitude of the attack (so a higher knockback magnitude = a higher chance for knock-proc damage). I feel like this is reasonable middle ground, since hitting a two ton walking rusty forklift hard enough to send them flying should have repricussions beyond "and then they took approximately 0.11 seconds longer to get back up."

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

add a damage component to knockback

IIRC, KB powers include some distance calculation as to just how far they knock the target back, so why not utilize that to determine how much additional damage is dealt?

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

IIRC, KB powers include some distance calculation as to just how far they knock the target back, so why not utilize that to determine how much additional damage is dealt?

That's still a function of KB magnitude. So you aren't really saying anything different than @PoptartsNinja.

[PoptartsNinja]

Just now, biostem said:

IIRC, KB powers include some distance calculation as to just how far they knock the target back, so why not utilize that to determine how much additional damage is dealt?

Because procs are more fun for the player.

 

Nobody will care if knockback does ~1-15 extra unenhancable damage (the knockback magnitude hard cap is 15 IIRC), but if every knockback has a chance to do 40-ish extra damage it's a big enough pop to be noticable; and because it doesn't happen every time it adds some operant conditioning--I mean, it adds to the fun--and people will gradually start to enjoy Knockback more.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Because procs are more fun for the player.

 

Nobody will care if knockback does ~1-15 extra unenhancable damage (the knockback magnitude hard cap is 15 IIRC), but if every knockback has a chance to do 40-ish extra damage it's a big enough pop to be noticable; and because it doesn't happen every time it adds some operant conditioning--I mean, it adds to the fun--and people will gradually start to enjoy Knockback more.

Conversely, if it is based off the magnitude but with a multiplier, then you will find players trying to max their KB for the increased damage instead of just aiming for the minimal requirement to trigger the proc. And will feel so much better when you send an enemy flying across the room. (Edit: But will also feel really bad when you get Freem'ed by the Council. Or any other enemy that uses good KB.)

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Rudra

[PoptartsNinja]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Conversely, if it is based off the magnitude but with a multiplier, then you will find players trying to max their KB for the increased damage instead of just aiming for the minimal requirement to trigger the proc. And will feel so much better when you send an enemy flying across the room.

That's part of the intent too.

And it's easy to control in high tier content, since knockback magnitude already scales with enemy level; so you almost have to enhance knockback if you want to knock-proc a +4.

Then you can move Sudden Acceleration's KB to KD out of the knockdown set (Sudden Acceleration having a six slot bonus is a cruel joke) and into a non-unique universal damage set, and replace it with a very fun "your knockback magnitude has a low chance to no longer respect the purple patch" proc.

 

 

If higher knockback magnitude is a higher proc chance, it stops disincentivizing trying to minimize the knockback rating in everything. And if a few powers like meteor become better, well... the spawn still had to survive long enough for the meteor to actually hit them so I think the high knock-proc rate is earned.

Edited 19 hours ago by PoptartsNinja

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

That's part of the intent too.

And it's easy to control in high tier content, since knockback magnitude already scales with enemy level; so you almost have to enhance knockback if you want to knock-proc a +4.

Then you can move Sudden Acceleration's KB to KD out of the knockdown set (Sudden Acceleration having a six slot bonus is a cruel joke) and into a non-unique universal damage set, and replace it with a very fun "your knockback magnitude has a low chance to no longer respect the purple patch" proc.

 

 

If higher knockback magnitude is a higher proc chance, it stops disincentivizing trying to minimize the knockback rating in everything. And if a few powers like meteor become better, well... the spawn still had to survive long enough for the meteor to actually hit them so I think the high knock-proc rate is earned.

We're going about it differently, but we apparently have the same goals.

 

So to @biostem, my apologies for my earlier response to you. There was a difference in your and @PoptartsNinja's approaches after all.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to add "after all".

[macskull]

58 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

(the knockback magnitude hard cap is 15 IIRC)

I’m curious where you are getting this information from, considering there are multiple player powers that have base enhanced values almost three times higher than that. Knockback strength most likely shares the same hidden +400% limit as many other attributes, which means it is a practical impossibility to reach.

 

Adding bonus damage based on magnitude or distance sounds nice at face value but that would likely serve to make knockback more annoying as everyone tries to maximize knockback slotting to get more damage. If the extra damage is significant enough to actually defeat enemies instead of just resulting in enemies that have lower health but are way more scattered, that’s a different story, but at that point the knockback becomes irrelevant since it’s just corpses flying around.

Edited 18 hours ago by macskull
Fixt

[Oklahoman]

I would support a KB->KD toggle, but when you toggle it on it automatically posts a request regarding Group Fly to the suggestion forums.