Focused Feedback: Tanker - Archetype Inherent Changes

[victusfate]

I tested my rad/ss tank out in an asteroid farm, they felt ok but def toned down/much slower clear times. Felt less super.

[Player-1]

On 5/26/2025 at 7:53 AM, The Curator said:

• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

 

 

 

Hello everyone,

 

A bit of clarification on the PBAoE changes: 15ft is the "cap" for Tanker PBAoEs, so anything that reached 15ft before would still do so. Typical 8ft PBAoEs will now become 12ft thanks to the 50% radius boost.

[British Battler]

So, basically a Nerf for all tankers 😞

[Uncle Shags]

The place I used to work had amazing parties.  Potlucks for holidays and birthdays. People brought in amazing food. Then one day management ended our parties. One person complained and said they felt pressured into bringing in food. Rather than address it with the individual they punished us all.

 

That's what some of these changes feel like.  Sweeping changes to the entire AT in order to address a couple over-performing powers.

 

[Super Atom]

It might fix a couple of tanker issues but im just gonna be honest, this made tankers less fun to play. 

 

I don't have specific numbers or powers that should be exempted for you. Just a generalized experience on a couple of my tanks. It's just less fun than before and will likely be the death of many of my tank toons.

 

I think this was just too much for some of the mid-range melee sets without them getting their own individual buffs. I have no doubt the top performing tank sets will still feel ok but lord did this X off like half the options.

 

 

Kinetic Melee has never been worse.  😭

[Geoffron]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

It might fix a couple of tanker issues but im just gonna be honest, this made tankers less fun to play. 

 

How so?  How did the playstyle actually change?  Just because you're putting out slightly smaller numbers in certain situations?  If that's what's making it less fun, you don't enjoy Tankers, you enjoy being overpowered.  Because that's what Tankers are.  They got overbuffed by the Homecoming team, and now they're finally reining them in a little.  A little!  They're still way stronger than they were at the end of CoH's retail life.  Their base damage scale is still way stronger, and their nerfed overcap damage is still better than dealing NO damage to targets above that initial cap.

 

  

13 hours ago, ScarySai said:

I always preferred brutes and would rather they got something than we try to bring tankers down.

 

I get why people say this, but it's such an obvious trap.  Ok, you buff Brutes.  Now why play a Scrapper?  Ok, let's buff Scrappers.  Now why play a Blaster?  Are we just going to buff everybody?

 

This game, overall, is easy.  After these Tanker changes, it will continue to be easy.  The general playerbase does not need a buff.  Brutes can do everything a Tanker can, really, they're just happen to be worse at it, other than single target damage (and not even, until your Fury builds up!).

29 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Kinetic Melee has never been worse.  😭

Yeah, I mean, that's a real problem, but my vibes were that KM was already kinda bad.  It would be ideal if the worst tanker secondaries were getting compensatory buffs in this same patch, but it does make sense to test the sweeping changes first, and buff the most underperforming sets second.  Please remember that the Homecoming team is a small group of volunteers and this is already a pretty big patch in terms of class design changes.

 

I personally have faith that KM will be buffed.  Just... probably not this patch.

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Geoffron said:

How so?  How did the playstyle actually change?  Just because you're putting out slightly smaller numbers in certain situations?

 

6 minutes ago, Geoffron said:

KM was already kinda bad

 

Apply this to every other mid melee set and you'll answer your own question

 

Tankers absolutely needed reigning in, i think everyone knows this. I think this just might be too much for a global nerf while so many melee sets are still struggling on their own. We already face the issue of "this is good on stalkers, but not on scrappers" or "This works better on tankers, but not on anything else" and this global nerf is only going to extend this issue to more power sets. I do not enjoyed being overpowered. It's why i generally avoid the top performing sets. It's also why i noticed how bad this change made the lower performing sets feel to play faster than you did, i guess.

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:53 PM by Super Atom

[macskull]

9 minutes ago, Geoffron said:

I get why people say this, but it's such an obvious trap.  Ok, you buff Brutes.  Now why play a Scrapper?  Ok, let's buff Scrappers.  Now why play a Blaster?

The fault with this logic is that the Scrapper version of melee and armor sets is often at least a little different than the Tanker and Brute versions, and Scrappers have an entirely different playstyle. For the most part, Tanker and Brute powersets are identical, their playstyles are identical, and they fill the exact same role on a team.

 

Sure, Brutes technically have an edge in single-target damage, but the difference is extremely small and it’s often not worth losing all the benefits of a Tanker. You buff Brutes by making them different from Tankers enough that people no longer feel the need to compare them side by side.

Edited Wednesday at 07:55 PM by macskull

[FupDup]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

The fault with this logic is that the Scrapper version of melee and armor sets is often at least a little different than the Tanker and Brute versions, and Scrappers have an entirely different playstyle. For the most part, Tanker and Brute powersets are identical, their playstyles are identical, and they fill the exact same role on a team.

 

Sure, Brutes technically have an edge in single-target damage, but the difference is extremely small and it’s often not worth losing all the benefits of a Tanker. You buff Brutes by making them different from Tankers enough that people no longer feel the need to compare them side by side.

A part of the problem is that many in the “buff Brutes” camp (not pointing at you) aren’t looking for ways to make them different, they just want a direct damage increase, which is where the fear of stepping on Scrappers’ toes comes from. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:00 PM by FupDup

[ScarySai]

33 minutes ago, Geoffron said:

I get why people say this, but it's such an obvious trap.  Ok, you buff Brutes.  Now why play a Scrapper?  Ok, let's buff Scrappers.  Now why play a Blaster?  Are we just going to buff everybody?

 

Scrappers have a defined role and perform very well when optimized, so this is a silly thing to say.

 

Brutes don't have such a benefit.

[Sovera]

It's just hitting the symptoms rather than the source. My Trapdoor times were usually on the 6-7 minute mark. But the list that went around (but absolutely had no bearing on the perception Tankers are super OP, nope, no relation at all) had them on the 4-5 minutes. Builds built specific for the task and then cranked with 6 damage procs per attack made good use of the wide AoE Tankers have to deliver quick burst damage.

 

Funny thing is that nothing much will change for *those* builds as they will still be using 6 damage procs who in turn ignore self-buffs. But this is a conversation that was already had.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Funny thing is that nothing much will change for *those* builds as they will still be using 6 damage procs who in turn ignore self-buffs. But this is a conversation that was already had.

 

Well, tanker proc rates in AoE powers are going down, right?

[ScarySai]

I mean it's not just procs, though that contributes. We gave one melee AT higher target caps, larger aoes and wider arcs and yet we're shocked it's the best one at clearing fodder.

 

It's definitely on the weaker side in single target, but not enough to outperform that gain. I was kinda hoping brute would get in on that action.

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Well, tanker proc rates in AoE powers are going down, right?

Proc rates going down due to the larger AoE size being baked into the powers instead of being added on by Gauntlet afterwards, and proc damage going down for any targets past the normal 5/10 caps.

 

I don’t remember if it’s been posted in this thread already, but here is the effect of the “overcap” mechanic on damage (left numbers are standard AoEs, right numbers are cones):

 

 

 

[skoryy]

I took my up-and-coming Fire/Energy with her completed build into some sewers to knock Council around.  Honestly, I didn't notice any real change from when I first was testing her build before the beta.  It still feels like a tanker: She can take a licking and keep on ticking.  She can hard carry the team, but there'll be plenty there for the rest to do.

[AmrasNotHere]

In short, after testing various combos, I feel this is a step backwards. I personally think focusing on improving brutes specifically would have been a better use of time and energy for all of us instead of targeting an AT that was already given a fairly positive change across the board.

[GM Impervium]

Just a friendly reminder folks: Provide feedback to the DEVS, don't argue with each other, please. I've hidden several (but not sure if I got all) such posts. Thank you.

[Borgold]

well my rad/ss tanker is for sure on pause until i see what level of car crash make live - as it is it wont make 50. nerfed from both sides feels like crap. but then i am biased - i went through star wars galaxies NGE and CU so i wouldn't trust a game dev telling me the sun comes up in the morning.

[Greyhame]

 

Dev feedback here: these bullet points are in desperate need of context and clarification.

 

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
  • ok, so buildup / rage go from 80% to 70%.  I get this one. 
  • a simple damage nerf, check.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
  • I vaguely recall Tanks having extra high debuff modifiers, like defender level or something? 
  • So this is technically a nerf but is equalizing stuffs, got it.
• OverCap mechanic implemented
  • so powers that previously had their AoE target cap increased by Gauntlet keep the new cap, but get new diminishing damage on the mobs hit over the old cap. 
  • a more complex damage nerf, check
  • thank you to Kai Moon for posting a clear example of this, it really helps 
• Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers.
  • er... could I get an example?  My takeaway is Gauntlet imposed on some powers some limits that are now being removed. 
  • In isolation that sounds like a buff, but maybe not with the other stuff below? I can't tell.
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
    • is this a removal of Gauntlet's previous increased AoE effects on cones and the base power radius/range being boosted instead?
    • if so that's a nerf since increased arc is generally far more useful on melee cones than longer range?
    • and it would be a definite nerf to proc rates? (not a proc expert.  proxpert? heh.)
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • um, is the previous Gauntlet boost to AoE radius being removed or is this added on top of that? 
  • depending on the answer to that question, this is either a big buff or a net neutral to everything aside from nerfing proc rates? 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:33 AM by Greyhame

[macskull]

@Greyhame: Yes, the bonus provided by Gauntlet is going away and the increase in power sizes is part of the base numbers now. This does three things:

1. Reduces power base damage since that is based on areafactor
2. Reduces proc chance since that is also based on (a slightly different) areafactor
3. Removes Tanker cones being wider and makes them longer instead, which accomplishes both 1 and 2 above but also makes the powers less likely to hit their maximum number of targets. (This one is actually a separate change but it’s doing the same thing so I included it here.)

Oh, and another thing which isn’t clear from the patch notes: the effectiveness reduction of the overcap mechanic doesn’t just reduce damage on the extra targets, it also reduces the effectiveness of secondary effects (including Gauntlet’s punchvoke).

Edited yesterday at 02:33 PM by macskull

[Jiro Ito]

28 minutes ago, macskull said:

@Greyhame: Yes, the bonus provided by Gauntlet is going away and the increase in power sizes is part of the base numbers now. This does three things:

1. Reduces power base damage since that is based on areafactor
2. Reduces proc chance since that is also based on (a slightly different) areafactor
3. Removes Tanker cones being wider and makes them longer instead, which accomplishes both 1 and 2 above but also makes the powers less likely to hit their maximum number of targets. (This one is actually a separate change but it’s doing the same thing so I included it here.)

Oh, and another thing which isn’t clear from the patch notes: the effectiveness reduction of the overcap mechanic doesn’t just reduce damage on the extra targets, it also reduces the effectiveness of secondary effects (including Gauntlet’s punchvoke).

 

Curious why these consequences of the changes aren't more clearly spelled out in the patch notes, as well as the intentions?

[macskull]

23 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

 

Curious why these consequences of the changes aren't more clearly spelled out in the patch notes, as well as the intentions?

The patch notes for the Tanker changes are pretty sorely lacking in detail, but I wouldn’t expect them to explicitly state the changes affect damage and proc rates.

[Major_Decoy]

9 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Scrappers have a defined role and perform very well when optimized, so this is a silly thing to say.

 

Brutes don't have such a benefit.

If I were designing the game: Scrappers are boss droppers.

Brutes wade into mobs and ramp up their damage.

The complaint with tanks was always "Why would the enemy pay attention to the tank if they don't really do any damage and are harder to drop than the blaster? People attack The Thing because you'll regret ignoring him" So what you do is give the tanks bonus damage on attacks to enemies that aren't targeting that tank.

[Reiska]

The core problem here is that there are four melee archetypes in a game that really only has firm concept space for three of them, and that truly fixing the melee AT imbalance is impossible without radically reinventing the gameplay role of Brutes, who were never designed (by Cryptic/Paragon) to exist in the same meta as Tanker and it shows in how they radically step on each others' toes.

 

Even as Homecoming is willing to go a bit further with sweeping gameplay changes, I suspect it's a bridge too far for them (for good reason), but the consequence of that is that either Brute or Tanker will end up being strictly non-optimal to the hardcore optimizer crowd.  On Live, it was Tankers; now, it's Brutes, and by all impressions I've seen these partial rollbacks of Homecoming's Tanker buffs do not change that.

 

And even if Homecoming was willing to radically reinvent one of the game's most-played ATs and almost certainly piss off everyone playing it, what niche is there for them to occupy that doesn't instead step on the toes of Scrappers or Stalkers?

 

The unfortunate reality is that Brute's design was a mistake all the way back in October 2005, became more of a mistake in July 2007, and has never stopped being a mistake.  But it's a mistake we're stuck with.  And I say this as someone who likes the AT and played it extensively on Live.

[Auroxis]

Back when the Tanker changes were first introduced I warned against that exact scenario of Tankers competing against Brutes. The changes in this patch basically do away with the increased damage scalars on the AoE's, but keeping the AoE aggro machine alive and giving Tanker an identity that doesn't clash with anything other AT's have to offer.

 

This is a step in the right direction, and is a step that can be built upon. Whether it be by expanding on this theme (giving tanker taunt a higher target cap? giving tanker more team supporty stuff?) or by beginning work on Brute identity (even better early game? the ability to choose what fury gives you?).

 

I'd encourage continued work on this in a later page.